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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted September 15, 2024 11:40 AM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 13:00, 15 Sep 2024.
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Aren't you tired of endless hypocrisy ? You just wrote about the USA in the role of hegemon, it is impossible not to make mistakes... And that’s all. In the case of Russia, you are outraged to the core and lose self-control.
Rafael Grossi first came to the Zaporozhye nuclear power plant, which is under Russian control. He said yes, someone is shooting at her. He doesn’t say who is shooting, although it is obvious that it is the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Then he came to the Kursk nuclear power plant, and also did not say who was doing the shelling. It would seem - what's the point of trying to hide what is obvious? The answer lies in the mental abilities and zombification of the Western man in the street, to whom any absurdity can be fed.
By the way, when the events in Donbass began in 2014 and when the Ukrainians deliberately shelled civilian targets in Donetsk, Ukrainian chats also giggled that they were shelling themselves.
Ursula von der Leyen comes to Japan for the anniversary of the US atomic bombing of Japan. No one says who carried out these atomic bombings, but Urusula von der Leyen finds an opportunity to talk about the danger of the nuclear threat emanating from Russia, although so far the only country that has used nuclear weapons, and against civilians, remains the United States. Again, who are all these manipulations and all this deception aimed at - the zombified Western man in the street who has neither real education nor the ability for critical thinking.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted September 15, 2024 01:08 PM |
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By the way, the annexation of the GDR in 1990 was illegal - no one asked the East Germans whether they wanted unification or not.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 15, 2024 01:43 PM |
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An overwhelming majority of crimeans voted to go back to Russia. All polls and surveys conducted by international and independent pollsters, from 2008 up to 2014 gave constant results : ~90% for leaving Ukraine then join Russia. Crimea was given as a gift to Ukraine, to evince the boundless trust and love the Russian people feel toward the Ukrainian people , however Russian residents within weren't asked, then they decided to have a voice, democratically.
The Crimea "annexation by force" is bogus, void, gibberish, BS narrative from frustrated westerners as they saw Russia expanding its soft power again, while they wanted it to crumble.
When residents vote at 90%, there is no need to force a military coup, it is GG, and if there are some armed men, they are exactly to make sure that goes as it should.
This is not an usual situation, with well defined countries, with hundreds years borders. All those were part of the The Russian Federation, for hundreds of years, so post-collapse adjustments were expected.
We already talked about this, yet some people will prefer play deaf, because they simply hate Russians, its visceral and definitive.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted September 15, 2024 02:18 PM |
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I don't know about the 1954 thing, but Russia wants Finland, etc.. Maybe other countries leave the past, example Estonia belonged to Finland, we don't want it.. But Russia wanted Estonia.. Russia can't ask for the return of Alaska, because it sold to the USA.. I believe Putin's government will fall, and distribute to others, Karelia will become a republic.. I don't think Finland demands the return of Karelia..
The vote was a theater, thus in there was a majority of Russians.. Illicit taking from Ukraine..
Ineffective propaganda! We are watching how the Russia lies to its own people..
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 15, 2024 02:29 PM |
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That's just propaganda and untrue, Salamandre.
True is that Crimea was an independent entity under the Ukrainian constitution. In 2014, as a reaction on what had happened in Ukraine, Russian forces occupied and seized control of Crimea. AFTER that - that is, AFTER the illegal annexation by force - they staged a referendum. With Russian armed troops in plain sight and everywhere.
The referendum offered only two choices, become a Russian province or a going back to the 1992 constitution. It didn't offer the choice to keep everything the way it was before Russia sent the troops.
The whole thing is therefore invalid under international right - with any referendum no troops from another country must be present and those troops cannot dictate the options of the referendum.
Therefore it's an illegal annexation.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted September 15, 2024 02:38 PM |
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We don't care what you think. You will not understand that times have changed and no one is interested in the precious opinion of the West anymore.
But the GDR will still need to be returned to the East German people..
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted September 15, 2024 02:43 PM |
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Salamandre said:
When residents vote at 90%, there is no need to force a military coup, it is GG, and if there are some armed men, they are exactly to make sure that goes as it should.
That's interesting, I've never been greeted by armed men on polling day let alone by men equipped with military weapons.
Why is it to hard for you pro-Russian guys to stick to the topic?
You don't even try to argue the war on Ukraine was justified anymore, you come up with "buts", "buts" and more "buts".
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted September 15, 2024 02:56 PM |
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Ben80]You will not understand that times have changed and no one is interested in the precious opinion of the West anymore.
quote said:
There we've got it right from you. Russians don't give a tinker's cuss about what Ukrainians think as soon they seem to have become "Western" so let's just invade and treat them as vermin.
Gotcha?
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted September 15, 2024 03:01 PM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 15:37, 15 Sep 2024.
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gatecrasher said:
You don't even try to argue the war on Ukraine was justified anymore, you come up with "buts", "buts" and more "buts".
Because this is the way it is - there can be no justification for wars, there can only be “buts”, which, as it turns out, rule the show in real life.
"Choose whatever you want - your rebellious lynching or our boring legality, but for the sake of the Almighty God, let there be one lawlessness for all or one justice for all".
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted September 15, 2024 03:45 PM |
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Edited by Ghost at 19:17, 15 Sep 2024.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted September 15, 2024 04:04 PM |
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Edited by Ghost at 12:46, 16 Sep 2024.
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Ben80 said:
the Almighty God
The holy war? Remember Imperialism.. Your culture..
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 15, 2024 06:12 PM |
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Lol, Putin is yet again repeating the nonsense about Poland being in part to blame for WW 2 because they weren't prepared to make (the necessary) concessions. That's not even worth a discussion.
I mean, sure the victims are always to blame, when. violence occurs, right? After all, they can always simply roll over, spread their legs and try to enjoy it.
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted September 15, 2024 10:31 PM |
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Not in defence of the current war but for the sake of balanced historical perspective on countries it is worth taking a look at how many times each country / union invaded another country.
Between 1945 and 2024:
United States invaded another country 13 times.
Soviet Union & Russia invaded another country 7 times (2 of which are Ukraine).
Since WW2 United States engaged in almost twice the number of invasions compared to Soviet Union & Russia.
Most of the invasions initiated by United States were on the opposite side of the world from the United States.
None of the invasions initiated by Soviet Union & Russia were on the opposite side of the world.
Let’s also not forget how Iraq was invaded by USA to confiscate/destroy the alleged weapons of mass destruction which were never found. And while USA possessed such weapons itself all along. Most notable thing was how this invasion was covered by the Western media.
As another poster mentioned, USA dropped nuclear bombs on cities with civilians. This was at a time when the war was almost won and their use was arguably unnecessary. Soviet Union & Russia have not dropped nuclear bombs on cities.
It is worth juxtaposing all of this with one’s default perception of which of the two countries is more likely to be an aggressor.
This does not necessarily define the current war, but I think that it is worth pointing out the subconscious bias that is often in the background when entering these discussions. Noticing it gives one more freedom to research with less bias.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted September 15, 2024 10:53 PM |
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@Valeriy
Although your point is well taken, I would push back based on the fact that the US has generally not initiated military aggression against other sovereign nations with the intent of claiming territory. A discussion over whether the US military interventions you point out were warranted/ethical/justified/whatever would certainly be fair game - but drawing parallels to Russia's current aggression against Ukraine would be false equivalence IMO.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 15, 2024 11:07 PM |
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Look, Valeriy, your post is completely off-topic and completely rhetorical. It's full of stuff like:
Valeriy said:
Not in defence of the current war but...
Let’s also not forget ...
This does not necessarily define the current war, but I think that it is worth pointing ...
But but but. But the coup de grace is this jewel:
Valeriy said:
It is worth juxtaposing all of this with one’s default perception of which of the two countries is more likely to be an aggressor.
It's not. We are not debating history here. We are also not debating entities with any continuity. There is no direct line from Russia under their different Tzars to Putin's Russia, and there is no direct line from Truman to Biden/Bush or whoever. We are also not debating a LIKELIHOOD of aggression since said aggression already happened.
If you want to discuss off-topic, consider this: Correct me if I'm wrong, but history says the Soviet Union was a COMMUNIST state (as were the satellite states). So when the Soviet Union disbanded and became a "capitalist democracy" (like the other communist states), since everything was owned by "the people", everyone should have come out of it with the same wealth. Right? Is that worth pointing out, what do you think?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 15, 2024 11:31 PM |
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The situation is not so simple to quantify, afaik. Crimea, Ukraine, are not "just another country", like Cuba is to US. They were part of Russia for centuries, then, at least in Crimea, there is a majority of Russians, same in parts of east Ukraine, those being disputed. So is not claiming land from a sovereign country, but operating adjustments which could be validated by cultural bounds, common history and so on.
Moreover, Russia invading Ukraine for land is just a theory, there is not a single validating speech in that direction from Putin, and he has given hundreds of them. The size of the military force was insufficient for a territorial conquest, it was clearly for political and geopolitical influence purposes. Maybe a coup was planned, to replace Zelensky, hard to say, now that it obviously failed.
Should we condemn it, yes. Should we keep our mouths running on how unprecedented evil this is and how all Russians must be punished, given that the West organized dozens of similar coups in Africa, east EU, Latin America, I am less enthusiastic about. Should we keep bragging about international laws, while at same time happily arm Israel which is conducting an ethnic cleansing with civilians casualties around 10 times of what Russians did in two years? That sounds to me as sheer hypocrisy. There were a lot of possibilities of solving the conflict, without a single annexation. Minsk agreements, Ukraine remaining neutral - military speaking, that was on the table.
We said no, let's fight Russia because its just an oil station, with stupid and brainwashed people, lead by a devil dictator which will mostly end assassinated. So, a war started from that moment, and we were the ones putting the fire.
But, now, as consequence, there will be territorial claims, and most probably Russia will get them as I see no successful strategy, neither at commandment level or at resources distributions, to take over Russia.
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted September 15, 2024 11:35 PM |
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Fair point about US invasions and not claiming territory. Doing so would also be logistically impractical and very politically contentious on the opposite side of the world. Installations of new governments more receptive to US strategic interests did occur though. This last strategy (not always done via military invasion) does have potential relevance to the current discussion.
Privatisation after the fall of the Soviet Union is an interesting topic and I was actually there at the time. The collapse of the government was chaotic and the country itself plunged into chaos. Some people who were close to the pie grabbed what they could. People were unused to and uneducated about private ownership of property and businesses and many did not know what to do or how it works, or what the importance of it was.
A system of so-called “vouchers” was implemented where every person was given a voucher which could be exchanged for shares in companies. Many people did not know how to use their voucher or did not understand its importance. Some opportunistic folks traded whatever they could, including vodka, and amassed more vouchers and used those to get bigger shares. There was a process for privatising dwellings that people were “signed into” (communist system). Etc. Many oligarchs or “new Russians” as they were called there were made during that crazy opportunistic and chaotic time.
It’s a bigger discussion but the essence is that the union did not get dismantled in a pre-planned and carefully thought-through manner, it collapsed. The change wasn’t planned and didn’t happen overnight. Also the public who lived their whole life without private ownership of property or businesses did not instantly understand how those systems worked.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted September 15, 2024 11:50 PM |
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No wonder you are very naughty, Valeriy.. It's coarse.. Think before the war in Ukraine.. The discussion is ineffective, but now it's easy to say.. Another thing links lead to superpower.. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that today the king of the North and the king of the South are at war.. Why did they say exciting? Are you trying to say the war has happened like an ordinary day? Same as Afghanistan and Vietnam? We can't know.. Ok remember their styles are very different..
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 16, 2024 12:06 AM |
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Salamandre said:
The situation is not so simple to quantify, afaik.
Well, yes, it is. Russia invaded, that's quantifying it. I suppose you mean something different, but, well.
Salamandre said:
Moreover, Russia invading Ukraine for land is just a theory
No, it's not. Noone claims that.
Salamandre said:
Should we condemn it, yes.
So go ahead. Condemn it. Because you are not. You come up with BUTS. It's called JUSTIFYING.
Salamandre said:
We said no, let's fight Russia because its just an oil station, with stupid and brainwashed people, lead by a devil dictator which will mostly end assassinated. So, a war started from that moment, and we were the ones putting the fire.
But, now, as consequence, there will be territorial claims, and most probably Russia will get them as I see no successful strategy, neither at commandment level or at resources distributions, to take over Russia.
Now, that's the best thing. Russia never wanted ANYTHING in Ukraine, but now that WEEEE have infuriated them "there will be territorial claims". Christ. How silly can it get? Hopeless.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 16, 2024 12:53 AM |
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When I said "we should condemn it", I was focusing on the political and diplomatic posture, it has to be that way, like when you say "my condolences for your loss", even if you don't give a damn. Personally, I see no reason to condemn it ; from what I read and listened to, Putin made it clear, since 2008 : any attempt to mutate Ukraine into a US military puppet will be considered as a red line. He told what he will do, and that was worth listening. Contrary to what some continue to claim here, the project of making Ukraine part of Nato was well alive, on its way and all this is well documented.
Everyone mocked him because not many get that Putin's Russia is no longer the Soviet Union - with its failures and weaknesses, but a much bigger deal, autonomous, self-sufficient, not paralyzed by any debt and benefiting from a large support worldwide.
Diplomacy is talking and listening to what the other has to say. Then making compromises. None of that happened. Putin did what every other power would have done in similar situation, secure what he thought were his interests. Wait for China, soon, a threat we consider as lightly as we did with Russia.
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