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purerogue3
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posted March 11, 2025 06:00 PM |
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^
I'm not going to repeat what you said.
Where is my filter - socialist.. yes
N-word not so sure about
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted March 11, 2025 06:34 PM |
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Just keep it on topic... We're not in the Wastelands. 
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JollyJoker
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posted March 11, 2025 08:56 PM |
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Blizzard said:
JollyJoker said:
Elections? Lol. Do you really think people vote what they actually get? Or get what they actually believed to vote for? Do you really think THAT is what people want?
You can't be serious.
And I have to say that you are pretty casually presuming to know what many/most Russians are okay with. Or people in general.
It is more like taking people's words at face value (assuming they are in a safe space) than it is about presuming to know.
So, if you stick a mic in front of somebody's face, there is a good chance a lot of what they say is going to go through a filter, because they feel unsafe. In more casual settings or in more anonymous polls, there is going to be a lot more honesty.
So, again, with expansionism, it is actually a fairly mainstream thing that is either openly supported or condoned by a lot of people, and this is particularly true with Russia and USA. Expansionism is the bread and butter of these two federations, and the idea of expansion never truly died even if it did become taboo to say it outloud.
I'm not saying Russians are terrible people because their militaristic history has also quite literally saved the world, but the expanionist mindset in Russia is a real thing. It isn't just Putin controlling the country like a puppetmaster.
People care about results. They want jobs, safety, some fun. They have that in relative quantities and they never want the level to decrease. If it does, they want the level to increase again. Obviously the overwhelming majority is clueless about Hows, as clueless as the so-called experts are most of the time, but politicians - when elections near - are giving tons of messages about cause and effect - say, illegal immigrants are the worst criminals, the scum that brings crime and steals jobs - and then tote the solution: deport all illegal immigrants, then everyone will have a job, crime will massively decrease and life will be worth living again. That was so a hundred years ago, and if you are permanently told that certain people are to blame for the sorry state of affairs, then people will start to believe it. Just as they believed that women are to blame for the loss of paradise.
Simple people don't have expansionistic mindsets. They have their hands full with paying their bills, saving their marriages, not losing their minds about their children and find the time and the money for a vacation once in a long while.
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Blizzard
Known Hero
Urban Legend
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posted March 11, 2025 09:05 PM |
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Edited by Blizzard at 21:20, 11 Mar 2025.
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Lots of "simple people" do support state expansion.
The reason is that they attach their own ego and sense of self-worth to the nation-state. So, when the nation-state expands or has military victories, this gives them a feeling of accomplishment or elation or self-worth. When the nation-state loses, this gives them a feeling of defeat and worthlessness. Humans aren't the only species to be like this, but we are one of them.
This is also true to some extent in sports or with local rivalries. The Philadelphia Eagles won the superbowl, so a lot of people in Philadelphia felt awesome about themselves for a while. A few of them also vandalized and set stuff on fire lol, but they felt good while doing it. This phenomenon is well-documented in psychology and it has a huge impact in politics.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
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posted March 11, 2025 10:20 PM |
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There is a difference between sport plus group identity (or identities, you can have more than one) and "war". For war, a justification is necessary, for sports there isn't. Justification means, you need to be part of the "right" side - the good side - or at least you need an ideology that makes fighting wars (and everything that comes with it) justified excused, wanted by the gods and so on.
In other words, war must be SOLD to the people in a specific way. Someone must sell war and someone must want war - someone who can decide to wage war or not, someone who has the power to do so.
And once you are committed, well.
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Blizzard
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Urban Legend
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posted March 12, 2025 02:54 AM |
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Edited by Blizzard at 03:08, 12 Mar 2025.
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There are a variety of polls floating around that try to gauge Russian support for the military operation (war) in Ukraine. Most of them are somewhere in the ballpark of 70%. Some of them closer to 80%.
Now, sure, fear can be a factor, and there is other nuance to that, because there are also polls showing most Russians would like to see a peace accord. The war has been happening for 3 years, lots of people are dead, and there is fatigue setting in. Most Russians are also unhappy being more cut off from Europe, both economically and just culturally; as in, being a guy with a Russian accent touring a city in Europe could potentially be uncomfortable. They want to retain their status as a cosmopolitan nation and a hub of research, learning, and such. They want their country to be seen as a cool country.
But what is clear is that support for the Russian military (not necessarily Putin) is high in Russia, and in general, Russians have a positive perception of their servicemembers. Being a servicemember is widely seen as a noble profession, which is not the case everywhere. It is definitely the case in Russia. They want their veterans to be loved and supported, and they don't want their dead servicemembers to have died for nothing. Ukraine is an important issue for most Russians and they would overwhelmingly disapprove if all of it went back to pre-2014 or pre-2021 borders. They would perceive that as a severe injustice and it is not something they are going to let go of.
Peace negotiations are happening in Saudi Arabia right now, and everybody involved in it needs to understand this fact whether they personally agree with it or not.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 12, 2025 09:58 AM |
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What has that got to do with anything? Armies - like police - consist of neighbours, sons/daughters, fathers, uncles, brothers, friends. They are not aliens. The army of a formally free (that is, not openly oppressed) country isn't considered evil by its population, why should it be? It's necessary to guarantee survival in the face of an adverse world - at least that is the propaganda (but it's not obviously wrong) and in Russia it's the same as in the US. The army is safeguarding the country.
Now, in Russia's case I wouldn't give too much on polls because last time I checked there isn't a free press and people will suffer from consequences when overly critical.
That's by the way not so different from what currently happens in the US, and even in my country you have to be careful what you say: fact-checking is a fairly easy point to make with a view on the Ukraine war, but not so much when it's about the Israel-Gaza mess; the Netanjahu regime is a disgrace (but again, it's PERSONS, not a nation or a country which is the problem).
You see, we have seen it all, Germany invented it: Do you want Total War, Goebbels asked a hand-picked audience, and they all hollered a heart-felt YES! Because too frightening was the alternative: primitive Slavics, smirking and oily, would come and rape people's daughters, pillage everythinmg that was holy and destroy superior society and culture. And it wasn't far from the truth either, because it was what the Germans had done with Russia first and they expected no less than being paid back in kind.
If, by some miracle, the Ukrainians would turn the table and march on Moscow, the same thing would happen and Russians condemning the war would still fight for their country, doubtlessly encouraged by an even more powerful propaganda.
You also have to keep in mind the unwillingness of people to admit to themselves that they are part of something that is doing something wrong - part of the wrong side, so-to-speak.
Humans are good in repressing.
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Blizzard
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posted March 12, 2025 03:24 PM |
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Edited by Blizzard at 15:50, 12 Mar 2025.
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Much of Russia is pro-expansion. That's what it has to do with stuff. They view the annexation of some of Ukraine's territory as a net positive, both for Russia and for the world.
I don't mean they are pro-expansion as in they think they should be taking over the world, but on the issue of Ukraine, many are pro-expansion, because the delineation of its borders there was never at any point a closed issue. I mean, legally it was, but Russia was never happy about it. Crimea is rightfully theirs; that is the popular opinion in Russia. You can't steal something that belongs to you.
Not all countries have the same opinion of their military forces, and they don't have identical priorities. Not all countries are the same in terms of patriotism. Russia is a more patriotic country than most other places in Europe, and it has a strongly positive view of its military. That factors into the view that the Russian state and the Russian people deserve to keep their military gains.
You can't just project your own views onto everybody else. You might view the military as a necessary instrument to ensure survival, kind of like an insurance policy. LOTS of people in this world see it as something more than that. It is connected with their core identity. So, if their nation's military fights for something, and many people die, and lots of memorials are being erected all over the country, and if that something should rightfully be a part of the Russian state, and if the international establishment is seen as corrupt and the cards are rigged against you, then the people are going to support that cause even if they have to sacrifice for it. And on that, Putin and most Russians are in alignment.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 12, 2025 05:24 PM |
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Dude, you are just claiming stuff - as if you had spoken in all honesty and personally with 100 million Russians. People's opinion depends on the narrative they are fed with - propaganda works. Everywhere.
Ukraine has never been a WILLING part of Russia and has been divided between Russia and Austria per-WW1 - and even as a republic in the Soviet Union (they were unified in the course of WW2 and their borders are recognized internationally since 1947) they were not part of Russia. Chrushtchev himself "gifted" Crimea to Ukraine. Russia has no more claim on them as Britain on India.
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Blizzard
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posted March 12, 2025 07:06 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Dude, you are just claiming stuff - as if you had spoken in all honesty and personally with 100 million Russians. People's opinion depends on the narrative they are fed with - propaganda works. Everywhere.
Ukraine has never been a WILLING part of Russia and has been divided between Russia and Austria per-WW1 - and even as a republic in the Soviet Union (they were unified in the course of WW2 and their borders are recognized internationally since 1947) they were not part of Russia. Chrushtchev himself "gifted" Crimea to Ukraine. Russia has no more claim on them as Britain on India.
That's not how the majority of Russians see it.
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blizzard
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Urban Legend
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posted March 12, 2025 07:18 PM |
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blizzard
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posted March 12, 2025 07:22 PM |
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CHICAGO, January 9, 2024 — Most Russians see the war in Ukraine as a defense against threats from NATO and the West and report little personal effect from the conflict. A recent poll of the Russian public conducted by NORC at the University of Chicago finds little material improvement in the quality of life for many Russians since the war, but not a significant deterioration in overall economic conditions despite international sanctions.
Most Russians approve of President Vladimir Putin’s job performance, and a majority plan to vote for his reelection this year. The survey’s findings underscore the complex interplay between geopolitical considerations and domestic concerns, as Russians grapple with the ramifications of the conflict in Ukraine.
Corruption and the state of the economy emerge as primary national concerns, with 55 percent expressing worry over both issues. Sixty-five percent of those who report a decline in their economic circumstances blame rising prices. But 76 percent say they are unaffected by their reduced ability to travel internationally in the wake of the conflict.
Evaluation of Putin's leadership reveals a nuanced public sentiment. Overall, Russians have a favorable view of Putin’s job performance. But, while 67 percent approve of how Putin is handling foreign policy, fewer, 58 percent, approve of his management of domestic affairs. Eighty percent of Russians say their standard of living has remained the same or has declined since the start of the war in Ukraine.
Looking ahead to Russia’s 2024 presidential election, two-thirds of the public say they plan to vote for or lean toward voting for Putin. Women are more likely to say they support his candidacy (70 percent) than men (61 percent). Russians over age 60 are Putin’s strongest proponents across age groups, with 73 percent of them saying they would vote for Putin, compared to just 53 percent of adults under 30.
Attitudes among Russians about their nation and its place on the global stage are palpably strong. Ninety-four percent have at least a moderate level of pride in their Russian identity. However, there is a prevailing sense of grievance, with 62 percent believing Russia is unjustly treated on the world scene. A notable concern for many is the perceived encroachment of Western values on traditional Russian beliefs. For example, 68 percent express apprehension about LGBTQ influence. And 64 percent of Russians see the conflict in Ukraine as a civilizational struggle between Russia and the West.
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blizzard
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posted March 12, 2025 07:24 PM |
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“While Putin enjoyed stronger public support through his long tenure as the country’s leader than that registered in this poll, and the well-being of many Russians took a hit or stalled since the invasion, the Russian public on the whole views their country’s actions in Ukraine as a justified response to an outside threat,” said Vadim Volos, vice president in NORC’s Public Affairs & Media Research department.
Most Russians (63 percent) support their country’s action in Ukraine, referred to as the “special military operation” (SVO) by the Russian government. Fifty-six percent say the military action will impact their voting decisions in the upcoming elections. The primary driver of support lies in Putin taking a stand against perceived threats from NATO and the West.
Still, 34 percent are concerned about the conflict evolving into a direct confrontation with NATO. Among those who support the SVO, 19 percent cite the defense of the country against the United States and NATO as their main rationale.
Regardless of the strong support for another Putin presidential candidacy, there is an appetite for a diversified political landscape in Russia. Seventy-four percent of Russian adults agree with the importance of having an opposition in the nation's political system. However, while most advocate change, opinions diverge on its immediacy, with 42 percent saying the time is ripe for political reform and 46 percent believing otherwise.
There is low awareness among most Russians regarding recent government crackdowns on journalists, activists, and other critics of Putin. Those who are informed express a high level of concern, with 73 percent feeling apprehensive about these reported government actions. The government oversight of personal communications is of a lesser concern, with majorities of Russians being at least somewhat comfortable in discussing opposition to Putin (59 percent) or offering criticisms of him (60 percent), both offline and on social media platforms.
Television is the primary news source, with 57 percent of Russians tuning in daily, closely followed by social media platforms at 51 percent. The use of VPNs (virtual private networks) to bypass content restrictions remains relatively low, with a mere 20 percent leveraging this technology.
Survey Methodology
This survey was funded and conducted by NORC at the University of Chicago. The poll was conducted in Russian between November 13 and November 21, 2023, with Russian mobile numbers throughout Russia, including Crimea, which was annexed by Russia in March 2014, and excluding Russian-controlled parts of the Donbas and southern Ukraine. Phone interviews were conducted among a random sample of Russians aged 18 and older who own a mobile phone number with one of Russia’s mobile service providers; 1,046 completed the survey. The overall margin of sampling error is +/- 3.4 percentage points.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 12, 2025 07:45 PM |
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blizzard said:
with conclusions repeatedly pointing towards a Russian public that has a significantly different way of thinking than other Europeans.
I don't think so. As JJ pointed, the opinion you have is based on the information you receive. Europeans who watch only mainstream have this apocalyptic vision about Russia, while those who watch alternative medias, and those make dozens of millions of views, think exactly as Russians. That the West has a huge part of responsibility and that the conflict could have been prevented with diplomatic tools, easily. Note also that 51% of russians - those with internet capabilities, as you wrote, have full access to social medias, as Youtube or even west mainstream, so they are fully aware of what our elites say as well.
I would put aside some of the eastern nations, the baltic countries and Poland, probably 1 or 2 more, which are nurtured from early age to hate Russians, as they had a different story with. So there should be a much more articulate anti-russian ideology, not likely to fall down any soon.
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JollyJoker
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 12, 2025 08:25 PM |
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blizzard said:
Survey Methodology
This survey was funded and conducted by NORC at the University of Chicago. The poll was conducted in Russian between November 13 and November 21, 2023, with Russian mobile numbers throughout Russia, including Crimea, which was annexed by Russia in March 2014, and excluding Russian-controlled parts of the Donbas and southern Ukraine. Phone interviews were conducted among a random sample of Russians aged 18 and older who own a mobile phone number with one of Russia’s mobile service providers; 1,046 completed the survey. The overall margin of sampling error is +/- 3.4 percentage points.
That's a ridiculous survey method. The sample is completely random. Then imagine the situation: You get mobile call, "Hi there, we are from the US and making a poll via phone." I wouldn't even do such a thing in MY country - they have your number and can link it with the answers, way to uncertain. Especially when they are looking for fresh recruits, lol. So I would either decline or answer in a way that can't come back to haunt me.
I wonder whether they asked whether they would be prepared to fight for mother Russia as well.
So I don't accept the poll. It's completely silly.
What I DO think, though, is that after some time the mood shifts: be the pariah long enough and people don't think, hell, why did we have to go to war, those bleeding idios, look at the mess, but instead start, well, screw them, if they shunt us and sanction us, to hell with them. Say, the athletes who are not allowed to compete anymore. In the beginning they will be pissed about their leaders, starting that crap - most of them anyway -, but let time go by and the mood will shift to, screw you, if you don't want us, we don't need those silly rigged competitions anyway.
I'm quite sure that mothers won't be pleased over their sons being put into the meat grinders either.
Now, there are no doubts about the fact. Russia is the aggressor here. They started a real live hot war, and there is no justification for that. Think about this: if there had been a valid security justification, then the move would have backfired dramatically with Sweden and Finland switching from neutral to NATO, while China getting a pretty big hold over Russia. Syria has been lost as well. Does anyone really think Russia has become more "secure" now?
Furthermore - I always here the argument: You cannot win a war against an atomic power. Mind you, only with a view on the current war. Now wouldn't that be true with Ukraine getting part of the EU (but not NATO, since Ukraine and Russia are at war since 2014, not since 2022. What "security interests" could have been violated - especially with the economic hold Russia had over vast parts of Europe due to their cheap oil and gas?
So that's all nonsense. The war started in 2014 with the annexion of the Crimea, from then on it was a bit like 1939 after Poland had fallen, but 2022 became 1940.
There can't be two opinions who is the aggressor.
That doesn't mean the war should last eternally or Russia should lose it. But the actual four Russian key demands are - as a whole - pretty ridiculous. Selensky could just as well hand Ukraine over and shoot himself after that.
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blizzard
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posted March 12, 2025 09:55 PM |
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Edited by blizzard at 22:19, 12 Mar 2025.
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It is a very good survey. Cell phone is the best method for an opinion poll, assuming it is relatively short and quick to complete.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64703768.amp
Another good article that makes another great point, which is that Russians are not as politically active as Westerners are. That is systemic and across the board: university campuses, orthodox churches, celebrities, etc. They just don't say/do much. Also, using sanctions to make a population reject its leaders is kaput. Doesn't work. Using sanctions to paralyze the war hasn't worked either. Supply chains have been redirected and the impact on the Russian economy has been bad but within tolerable limits.
Docility towards the Kremlin + strong support for the military + stable supply chains puts Russia in a position of strength in Ukraine.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 12, 2025 10:19 PM |
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That article supports my opinion. It's not RUSSIA that is at war with Ukraine. It's a small clique that holds the country in a chokehold - and as long s everything is far away resistance won't lead to anything but personal desaster. Same as in every country, anytime - you don't even need a dictatorship; martial law is sufficient.
I mean, do you see the population of Israel protesting a lot - even though resistance against Netanjahu was firmly building before that Hamas action.
Bottom line is, every country, every people is alike: as long as people still have something to lose, resistance is hard to find, and as long as the truth isn't hitting with a sledgehammer the majority of people will just close their eyes, be quiet and be quiet. And there will always be a minority, not only buying the BS, but be really into it. Lots of Americans have been in favor to kick commie asses in Vietnam, for example. Russians are nothing special.
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blizzard
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posted March 13, 2025 03:16 PM |
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Edited by blizzard at 15:20, 13 Mar 2025.
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Nuh uh, it supports my opinion.
It was written back in 2023 when the war was still going relatively badly for Russia, and the author sneaks in his personal belief that Russia will reap the whirlwind for the illegal invasion. That part of the article we can set aside, because it's dated.
What he correctly points out is that there is no imminent rejection of Russian leadership from the Russian people. Many countries engaging in the sanctions did it with the hope that it would lead to a turnover of leadership in Russia. No. And the NORC survey and other surverys show that most Russians view the war in Ukraine as a defense against NATO.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 13, 2025 03:38 PM |
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Yeah, so? It's what they have been fed with. They have been fed with "the West is evil" up to 1990 and then again since 2008. In addition they are fed with "the West is decadent". As I said, propaganda works.
I won't continue a silly discussion about the "war-loving Russians". It's utterly misguided. They are no different from, say, Americans. If anyone really expected the people to stand up and dislodge Putin, they haven't looked to history. Or do you see Iranians dislodging their idiotic regime? And you'd expect that a lot more than in Russia. Iran's ruling clique is at war with its own people, after all. Russia isn't even at war - they just try to denazify Ukraine, dislodge the decadent element and allow straight Russian Ukrainians to live a proper life again.
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blizzard
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posted March 13, 2025 04:35 PM |
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I never called them war-loving. You said that. This is how imaginary hate speech gets spread. You make up something I said that I didn't say and then I get in trouble for saying something that you said.
I said most Russians support expansion, which they do. It is seen as a healthy policy that benefits Russian interests and Russian national security.
Most Russians are not actively against the war and they definitely do not support losing what they took.
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