|
|
Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
|
posted October 19, 2023 08:13 PM |
|
|
 Palestine hasn't president, thus Hamas has been in power for over 20 years.. So I don't think Palestinians support Hamas. I remember dimly that Hamas prevents electoral, Finnish news said.. Hamas is Islamic..
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 19, 2023 08:42 PM |
|
|
|
Right. But they elected Hamas when they still could have suppurted Fatah. They chose a harder course and suffered from it.
|
|
Panda_Tar
Adventuring Hero
CH mascot and right-wing
|
|
posted October 19, 2023 08:53 PM |
|
|
JollyJoker said:
I fail to see a reason to support the Palestinians.
All left-wing parties here and mainstream media supports Palestinians, which is causing a lot of turbulence in our political system – added, to be frank, because this corrupt and criminal who's been place in the presidency is not having an easy time around here either. For context, for some reason, Hamas expressed their congratulations to Lula when he got elected back in 2022. This is one reason that the president is sort of dodging classifying Hamas as terrorist, so they're using the UN-official classification as an excuse. But given leftists are under an awakening call, similar to that what's happening in USA, Lula's party and the other governing parties aligned to his ideology are starting to let things slip. Lula's party even published a note calling Israel a genocidal country. Lula's party, called PT, is very fond of that word. They called Bolsonaro genocide for 4 years straight, basically. They call manifestants terrorists, but they call terrorists 'fighters'. PT's president, another criminal woman called Gleisi Hoffmann, was having a heated discussion yesterday with Israel ambassador because their supportive stance to Hamas.
So, you see, sometimes the majority of a country does not support Hamas, but the government seems to have a mind of its own and a pet media to support it, so that's all the news one can get, which makes so difficult to understand what's going on overseas, because everything looks off.
____________
Biology doesn't care about morality.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 19, 2023 09:24 PM |
|
|
That's enlightening.
It's a pity for the Palestinians that so many rich and powerful people have an interest in keeping the tension up. 28 UN member states still haven't recognized Israel and probably won't do it anytime soon, if at all.
There won't be peace.
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted October 19, 2023 10:14 PM |
|
Edited by Galaad at 22:15, 19 Oct 2023.
|
JollyJoker said:
I fail to see a reason to support the Palestinians.
Wow. I fail to see a reason to NOT support ******* civilians victims. Israel's retaliation has been on the same level than Hamas's attack, if not worse.
Quote:
How long did it take Arafat to make the progress they did - just to throw it away in favor of terror?
Do you remember who killed Rabin?
Quote:
But they elected Hamas
And Germans elected Hitler. No, that doesn't justify what happened in Dresden.
____________
|
|
Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted October 20, 2023 05:37 AM |
|
|
I think JJ means that he sees no reason to support their actions, while their actions are centred on terrorism. It doesn't mean you shouldn't support their need for a permanent home state and peaceful lives.
Also, Israel's retaliation brings destruction on the same level as Hamas' attack if not worse. The actions themselves are not on the same level whatsoever. They don't include rape, burning people alive, kidnapping toddlers and the elderly. They do include warning most of the population to move away from the war zone and allowing humanitarian aid to be brought in through Egypt.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
Ben80
Famous Hero
|
|
posted October 20, 2023 05:49 AM |
|
|
1. The IDF has completed preparations for the attack on the Gaza Strip. US media claim that the order has already been given.
2. Western diplomats are leaving Lebanon in droves. They also urge their citizens to leave Lebanon.
3. The United States issued a warning about threats to the security of Americans abroad.
4. Iranian proxies continue attacks on American bases in Iraq and Syria. The Americans already have losses. A US destroyer shot down several missiles launched from Yemen.
5. The bombing of Gaza continues, the death toll is approaching 4,000. There are already more than 14,000 injured.
6. Protests in support of Palestine continue around the world, even where they are prohibited. Israel evacuated diplomats from Turkey, Jordan, Egypt, and Morocco.
7. Hezbollah reported that it destroyed or damaged 10 Israeli Merkava 3 and Merkava 4 tanks. It declares its losses at 17 people. The fighting continues.
8. Clashes and protests continue in the West Bank. There are dead protesters and many injured. There are also dead and wounded among Israeli soldiers.
9. Humanitarian aid should enter Gaza tomorrow through the Rafah crossing. The Red Crescent and the UN will transmit. Russian humanitarian aid will be there too.
10.Jordan and Egypt said that they would not allow Israel to push Palestinians onto their territory. This position was also brought to the United States.
11. The United States refused an international investigation into the shelling of a hospital in Gaza, saying that we must trust them and Israel.
12. The Iraqi Islamic Resistance said after the strikes that it would continue to attack American targets within range.
|
|
Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted October 20, 2023 05:54 AM |
|
|
13. Dozens, if not hundreds of rockets a day keep being fired into civilian territory by Hamas.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 20, 2023 08:23 AM |
|
|
The thing is, NO ONE demonstrates against HAMAS terror, but lots demonstrate for Palestinians and against Israel.
In my mind this is a mirror of the feelings involved: Many people obviously hate Jews and Israel for some reason, most of them muslims, but those who do not hate Jews and/or Israel do not love either the Palestinians or Jews or Israel, because - why would they? Not more than anyone else, anyway.
So there is a dysbalance, a dysbalance of hate. Even in Egypt, that is at peace with Israel for nearly 50 years, two generation, a sizable part of the population still hates Israel.
This will never stop, since the hate will stay, no matter what solutions may be found for the moment.
Why am I on the side of Israel? Because they are not the haters, but the hated. The structures in many Arab countries are still archaic and all this religion-motivated terror is sucking pretty badly. In my opinion, the combination of orthodox muslims, archaic structures and oil money is the problem. Not Israel.
One way or another this will take a bad ending.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted October 20, 2023 09:40 AM |
|
|
What disturbs some people (outside the Arabic world where the hate is viral) is the hypocrisy of medias, always happy to use the most strong and robust language to describe the crimes against humanity of Putin, but they will not use the same strength of language when it comes to describing Israel's treatment of Palestinians, now documented and detailed by two of the most respected human rights organizations if the world.
Anyone who looks honestly at the decades of brutal, inhumane persecution of Palestinians, successful attacks on Gaza, the annexation of the land and territories, the systematic application of apartheid rules, can only feel hopeless when medias never call it apartheid, nor calling for actions, even after 70 years of oppression, while for Putin it took 5 years and 17k sanctions.
Amnesty International is calling for Israel to be referred to the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity, yet sightless deniers of the evidence still asking why anyone should be allowed to express support for Palestinians, moreover forgetting on purpose that what differentiate us from authoritarian and tyrant regimes, or from the islamists they pretend to hate so much - while allowing millions to put foot close, is the freedom of publicly express opinions, allegiances and grievances. Depressing.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 20, 2023 10:23 AM |
|
|
It's not hypocrisy, it's helplessness, especially of those not in anyone else's shoes. The original sin of the Jews has been the foundation of Israel, and everything else stems from that. Since then, Israel is under attack, but isn't actually able to really do anything about it. No matter what they did, there would never be peace, whether they simply just defend or whether they would conquer the country of an attacker (as obvious in Iraq).
If the muslim world, inclusing the Palestinians, would have been more open to a state Israel in their midth, there would have been a Palestinian state for a long time, a peaceful solution.
But they are not.
So Israel has only two choices: Give up and disband or fight.
The way I see this, the Palestinians have been betrayed by their fellow muslims and Arabs, first and foremost, because they have put their hatred of the Jews over the interests of their fellow muslims in Palestine.
Defending against terrorism, missile attacks and so on won't always be possible without collateral damage - that is in the nature of things, and every movie or fairy tale telling a different story is just a fairy tale. Because terrorism is based on create problems for the target of their attack, that are impossible to solve in a manner that doesn't come with any kind of collateral damage. The whole purpose of it is letting the supposedly "good" side look "bad".
So the "hypocrisy" as you call it, is giving the supposedly "good" side" - that is, the defending side - a bit of leeway, knowing that while defending, crap may happen. With attacking it's different, because attacking is already the problem while defending is allowed.
Which means, civilian casualties are generally on the attacker, even if the defender is the guilty part, because without the attack they wouldn't have happened.
That in turn reduces this to the following question:
Are the Jews the attackers/aggressors by founding Israel and is therefore ISRAEL the one that is guilty of everything?
That is the opinion of many muslims (probably including the majority of the Palestinians).
Or was it a legal act, sanctioned by Britain who could actually do it, and was it more or less a desert country no one wanted anyway. In that case a peaceful resolution should have been possible and that there hasn't come about one is not Israel's fault.
Be that as it may, the leeway the West gives Israel, isn't unlimited. In fact, as far as I can see, it's pretty much stretched to the limit now. Israel cannot afford a policy of scorched earth, the way they initially threatened to execute - but the case is far from solved. There is still the question of the 200 hostages taken and of the eradication of Hamas which will probably be impossible anyway.
And the next terror attack is already waiting behind the next corner now that emotions fly high.
|
|
Ben80
Famous Hero
|
|
posted October 20, 2023 01:12 PM |
|
Edited by Ben80 at 13:13, 20 Oct 2023.
|
From Biden's statement:
"Supporting our critical partners, including Israel and Ukraine, is a smart investment that will pay dividends for generations."
In the USA everything is as always - investments, money, dividends. Business on blood.
|
|
Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
|
|
posted October 20, 2023 02:20 PM |
|
|
Aren't you happy, Ben80? USA has $33,6 trillion in debt.. We don't give up on evil.. A black lists are still North Korea, Russia, Iran, Syria, Hamas and other terrorist organizations.. Do you remember WTC, USA put a black list from Russia, and Russia said what? So we have a lot of work.. Those countries have rubbish law and rights..
https://www.usdebtclock.org/
|
|
Ben80
Famous Hero
|
|
posted October 20, 2023 02:37 PM |
|
Edited by Ben80 at 14:51, 20 Oct 2023.
|
Ghost said:
USA has $33,6 trillion in debt..
The US will never repay this debt - this is pure robbery on the part of the US. Either the dollar will be devalued, or they will destroy those to whom they owe it (like Sarkozy destroyed Gaddafi), or they will simply say “we won’t pay”, on any basis that comes to mind (after all, their order is based on “rules”, and no one knows these rules except them).
Until the US leaves the scene, evil will continue to rule the world.
Ghost said:
So we have a lot of work.. Those countries have rubbish law and rights..
But what about the sovereignty of countries ? How can you put a country on some kind of blacklist and wage a direct or indirect war against it just because someone doesn’t like the laws within these countries ?
|
|
Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
|
|
posted October 20, 2023 03:25 PM |
|
|
|
Ok Ben80.. If you don't admit the fact, we hope you live happily, thus happiness is a very important matter.. We need a peace, safety and justice.. But handicapped mood disagreed with us..
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted October 20, 2023 08:07 PM |
|
|
“The United States refused an international investigation into the shelling of a hospital in Gaza, saying that we must trust them and Israel.”
An international peace force, not just an investigation would be the best thing for Gaza now. But of course, the U.S. government will oppose and prevent it. Their decisions in the region have consistently been reckless.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted October 20, 2023 08:11 PM |
|
|
Geny said:
They do include warning most of the population to move away from the war zone and allowing humanitarian aid to be brought in through Egypt.
Here, news report that Israel warns people to move away but then hits convoys which do exactly that. Is this true and if so, why?
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Panda_Tar
Adventuring Hero
CH mascot and right-wing
|
|
posted October 21, 2023 01:47 AM |
|
|
Here, it's reported that Hamas do that to have Israel framed (the independent media and other sources). The mainstream media reports as you said, although I don't see much sense in Israel doing so, because mainstream media usually sides with Palestinians, not to mention the killing for the killing purpose does not fit my perception of Israel's MO, but Hamas's. Starting an attack by killing people in a rave party is not quite a military strategy I'd expect Israel to emulate days later.
What bothers me the most was the (alleged) complete lack of intel on the first strike. Too many holes on that to simply believe Israel was caught off-guard. We know there have always been rogue elements, warmongering people (people who never lived in peace and seems not to know how to live without having a battle every now and then) and third parties with enough power to tilt countries. Right now, I feel like there are some of these people in Israel working with Hamas. But that's just conjecture.
____________
Biology doesn't care about morality.
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted October 21, 2023 10:39 AM |
|
|
Panda_Tar said:
What bothers me the most was the (alleged) complete lack of intel on the first strike. Too many holes on that to simply believe Israel was caught off-guard. We know there have always been rogue elements, warmongering people (people who never lived in peace and seems not to know how to live without having a battle every now and then) and third parties with enough power to tilt countries. Right now, I feel like there are some of these people in Israel working with Hamas. But that's just conjecture.
Apparently it took Hamas 30 years to prepare this attack.
I've seen videos where they nuke the securities one by one in the no mans land before reaching the wall.
____________
|
|
Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted October 21, 2023 03:48 PM |
|
|
@artu
Honestly, I have not seen anything about that one way or another.
@Sal
Re: pro-Israeli media
What you said is actually very interesting, because I'm Israel everyone is focused on how Western media misrepresents Israeli suffering and Hamas atrocities.
BBC refuses to call Hamas terrorists, only recently deigning to call them "a group that is considered a terrorist organisation by the British government".
When a Palestinian hospital is hit, everyone blames Israel based on only one, very involved source. However, when an Israeli hospital is hit by 4 Palestinian rockets no one seems to cover it.
And all of this adds to past narrative where terrorists are "gunmen", neutralising a terrorist on a killing spree is "murder", etc.
So I'm beginning to wonder if people gravitate towards media outlets opposed to their ideology, so they would have something to be outraged about.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
