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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted May 15, 2004 06:02 AM |
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Quote:
No one made that point...
Poor word choice or you would rather attempt to make me look bad by saying I jumped to a conclusion. It seems you did though...how 'bout that...
I don't need to make you look bad, I was making a point about culture that wasn't even really in reply to you. You then accused me of not watching something that had nothing to really do with my point and claimed I was accusing you of something which I have not. If you want to play somantics about what it sounded like I meant rather than read and discuss what I raised if you feel the need, then do so. And you did jump to two conclusions, firstly that if I had made that post I "Must" have not seen the video. Wrong. Secondly you assumed that I was directing my replies at you. Wrong. Now you want to make a pedantic point on how I word my posts rather than take on board or discuss what I said.
I don't even need to try to make that look bad 
If however you don't want to discuss what I raised, then don't. I don't intend to spend all day discussing whether I word things to your liking or not.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted May 15, 2004 06:13 AM |
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Quote "No worse than a lot of what used to be done by the US forces against the native american peoples less than 100 years ago, sometimes on the very orders (and on others with their knowledge) of the people that are often now revered in the states as great leaders...Not that what they did was pleasant, that's not my point, but public executions and the killing of innocents is only maybe 200 years back in Western history as well."
PH your perspective is deeply disturbing...to rationalize that brutal beheading is quite sick. Call evil evil...don't rationalize it and trivialize it.
That was one of the most pathetic responses I have ever seen you make, and since I know you to be a decent person I can only surmise that your political extremism has sadly blinded you to a horrific reality. Those words you wrote were truly disturbed and disconnected from humanity!
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Humans are gods with anuses -Earnest Becker
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted May 15, 2004 06:18 AM |
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Did you like... bother to read the point made?
Did I say it was justified? No.
Did I say it was horrible? Yes (in the second post) Prior to that I'd assumed that common sense would have told you that I found it so.
Did I rationalise or trivialise it? No. It was part of a larger point that I made the remark about our culture doing such things, not to say that it was justified.
What I said (and I'm getting a little sick of repeating it now to be frank) was that the events are not as uncommon as we think in our own past, and that the events are common to terrorists and not culture/religion/area more than any other example of those 3. If you could just read more than 2 of the many paragraphs that I typed you'd find that out instead of ignoring them so you can make a emotional response which makes me look callous.
Makes me wonder why I bother, people just seem to read what they want in my posts anyway and reply to that, perhaps in future I should just put:
"Insert whatever supposedly anti-american/anti-western/anti-eu/insulting/accusing/assuming post you wish here"
It might make life a lot easier for you all 
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Aquaman333
Famous Hero
of the seven seas
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posted May 15, 2004 04:30 PM |
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Hmm, these events aren't really that common. I can't recall the last time an innocent man was decapitated in an excruciatingly slow manner while on camera. Oh, and with the native americans, we answered violence with violence. If your soldiers are being scalped and your POWs being killed, you take desperate measures.
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"Brian, look! There's a message in my Alphabits! It says,
"OOOOOOO!"."
"Peter, those are Cheerios."-Family Guy
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted May 15, 2004 07:14 PM |
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Edited By: Consis on 15 May 2004
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I Would Like To Make A Point
Wolfman, Dargon, Anyone else who has seen the video,
You guys, that video affected the whole world. I am the first to admit what it has done to me. I honestly can't pinpoint the reaction within me but I can say that so many different emotions have welled up inside that I have at times felt like I just want to go on a rampage through these monster's homes killing everything. But think about it. What does that make me? It turns me into a new kind of monster. A monster that kills blindly, anything in proximity to the murderer's geographic residence. That means many other people could die whom were innocent. That's all Privatehudson was trying to say. He was, as always fighting against stereotypes and broad generalizations. In so many words, I think he was saying that we should use our intelligence, spy satellites, etc. to only kill those who are responsible and not anyone else.(was that about right privatehudson?)
What I'm saying to Wolfman, Dargon, and any other americans who have seen this video is that the reason they did this was to enrage us. These terrorist want us blindly bombing their entire village so that we have plenty of collateral damage. Collateral damage = garnishing more supporters to their extremist views. More people will hate americans and so forth.
I think it's good that Privatehudson consistantly and courageously fights stereotypes and broad generalizations. It's the good fight. He should keep it up.
Just think about it like this. Remember when the MalcomX movie came out here in america? Remember how inflammatory it was? Denzel Washington played MalcomX and lots of african americans went to see the movie. Well, in many parts of the country(mine was one) white people didn't go to the movie because when some did, they were verbally and physically attacked and threatened. Was it because they were the ones suppressing black people all those years ago? No. They were simply there when the african americans became enraged and inflamed at the content of the movie. It aroused inner feelings of the many times when they felt they were being oppressed or some other kind of degradation.
Don't let this video blind you with rage my friends. We must stay focused and bring only those who are responsible to justice. We are making progress. Let's let the soldiers do their job. As they have been performing under the microscope of the entire world, their work is becoming increasingly stressful. They're working hard and they need our support. They are the ones who will bring these madmen to justice. Make sure to let your friends and family who are serving over there know that we love them and miss them. That's the best support they can get.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted May 15, 2004 07:33 PM |
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Consis, no one was generalizing.
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Khaelo
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Underwater
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posted May 15, 2004 09:44 PM |
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what!?!
The entire video is available to the public? The news sources I've seen have been tasteful enough not to show the whole video. The New York Times online article gave a text description and showed a still picture of Nick Borg sitting in front of the row of hooded men, one of whom was drawing a knife. That was clear enough, IMO. It was an outrage. It was an atrocity. Linking it to the prison abuse is *&$#%^; they would have done it anyway (as they did with Daniel Pearl). That was all very clear without the video itself. Did the media really have to make the agony of Nick Berg's last minutes a public spectacle? Why did the militants make the video in the first place, and doesn't publicising it further their agenda?
[/tangent]
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 Cleverly
disguised as a responsible adult
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted May 15, 2004 10:45 PM |
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It's available to the public, if you know where to look. It is digusting, I don't suggest you look for it if you have a weak stomach.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted May 15, 2004 11:57 PM |
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Quote:
Hmm, these events aren't really that common. I can't recall the last time an innocent man was decapitated in an excruciatingly slow manner while on camera. Oh, and with the native americans, we answered violence with violence. If your soldiers are being scalped and your POWs being killed, you take desperate measures.
I can't wait to see what PM makes of this rather blinkered view of US history...
BTW public executions were common in the UK as recently as the 19th century. And they were popular too
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted May 16, 2004 05:47 AM |
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You simply don't make statments like that. Could you imagine someone viewing a video of a rape and saying...yeah that is bad, but it has happened many times in the past. That would be outrageous and callous. That atrocities have happened in the past is irrelevant to a current atrocity.
Again PH why mention public beheading executions...that has absolutly nothing to do with that cruel slow sawing off of one's head on the video we are discussing and is yet another way to dodge the issue. First it is in past. Second one is sanctioned by the state for a criminal act. The beheading that was on the video was of an innocent...he had committed no crime....that is what makes terrorism such an outrage...they intentionally kill innocents...it is not collateral damage...it is pure evil in butchering an innocent.
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Humans are gods with anuses -Earnest Becker
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted May 16, 2004 05:53 AM |
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Edited By: dArGOn on 15 May 2004
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Quote
"Did the media really have to make the agony of Nick Berg's last minutes a public spectacle?"
The mainstream media didn't make it available, but of course you can view it on the internet.
I struggled with whether to view it. After deliberating I decided to and have not been able to get it out of my mind ever since.
Though it makes you very ill, I do think it is important for educated people to see what we are fighting against. Anyone with a human heart will soon awaken with a needed clarity towards the despicable creatures terrorists are and that we must take strong action to stop them.
I think reading or seeing "before" pictures do not arouse the righteous anger that people need to make informed decisions about what to do about terrorism.
It is kind of the equivilant of reading about what Hitler did to Jews versus watching the movie Schindler's (sp?) List. If people in the world saw a movie like that during WWII I bet Hitler's reign would of been ended much much quicker.
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Humans are gods with anuses -Earnest Becker
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 16, 2004 10:11 AM |
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Of course we feel more emotionally involved, if we see the faces of those who die. And even more so, if they are similar to us, if we can identify with them. Itīs a natural reaction. "That could have been me."
And yes, of course such pictures are horrible. But what happened there is what happened in the Iraq thousands of times since the war began last year: A violent and painful death of a human. Period.
We all know these beautiful TV pictures of green mist, and an aiming cross in its centre, followed by an explosion, and some military leaders telling us about a strategical target that has been erased. Do you ever wonder whatīs going on beyond that green? There may be people burning, buried alive under rubble and slowly squeezed to death, or watching their entrails coming out of where they belong.
Yes, the decapitation video shows what "we" are up against. But much more importantly, it also shows what "we" have created, what "we" are creating, and what "we" may become, if "we" make decisions based on the emotional intensity of such impressions.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted May 16, 2004 03:37 PM |
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Imagination
We all have it. We all use it.
I'm sure I don't need these videos to tell me how horrible things are in certain parts of the world. I, like the rest of you, have a very healthy imagination. I'm quite capable, as much as the rest of you, of imagining what sort of things happen in a war.
The fact that some of you would willingly choose to watch these videos, tells me you are so detached from your own imagination and the truth about war, is an indication to me that you haven't thought it through.
I would ask you all to try your imagination before viewing such material. Once you see something as hideous and gruesome as what is on these videos then it will be very difficult for you to clear your memory of the horror you've just witnessed. Atrocity is not 'water off a duck's back'. It doesn't go away after you've seen it. It stays in the back and sometimes the forefront of your thoughts. It's horrible. It's a disease that adversely affects you with morbid curiosity. In some people's minds it can fester and cause a new fear that might change your whole outlook on life for the worse. Is that what you want?
Peace, it would seem, comes at a high price. This is now all too obvious. Let us remain vigilant and rely on each other for support. With each other, we can overcome that which we currently face.
Reality.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted May 16, 2004 09:07 PM |
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Quote:
You simply don't make statments like that. Could you imagine someone viewing a video of a rape and saying...yeah that is bad, but it has happened many times in the past. That would be outrageous and callous. That atrocities have happened in the past is irrelevant to a current atrocity.
Either you intentionally ignore or discount why I made that statement. Either way I'm quite fed up of repeating myself. Try reading the bit where I said it was horrible again before making such a pointless set of remarks.
Quote:
Again PH why mention public beheading executions...that has absolutly nothing to do with that cruel slow sawing off of one's head on the video we are discussing and is yet another way to dodge the issue
Why? (Again I have stated why a number of times now if you had managed to read it) Because I was making a point that this is not typical to just "them" but to terrorists. If you wish to start being picky about the brutal method and innocence of the person involved I guess I'll have to point to witch trials and such like. I'm able to define a difference thank you, when you deem yourself worthy to pay attention to why I was making the point perhaps it might be worth my while discussing it further.
Oh and btw, dodging the issue assumes that I was trivialising the event, which I was not in order to launch some spurious anti-american comment, which I was not. I made a point which you have repeatedly failed to notice or refer to. If that's dodging YOUR issue, then that's your problem since it was never YOUR point I was talking about.
As for being in the past, well I believe I acknowledged that, however since it fails to affect what point I was making then the matter is irrelevant to me.
However if you want to start talking about "them and us" types of discussions you do need to be aware that an awful lot of people in Iraq and even some of those involved in the fighting against the US forces would probably be just as horrified about this and fight for totally different reasons and motives. Ascribing this to "them" needs a defenition of who "they" are and not a general take that the whole of the anti-us people out there are part of such acts. Not even all terrorists are of this mould, so whilst it's horrific, what will be an even bigger danger would be to assume that this is the norm.
No-one should make the mistake of assuming that this video is justification for any and all types of response because "they" are clearly all barbaric terrorists.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted May 16, 2004 10:13 PM |
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<SIGHS>
This is really huge. I was hoping not to have to think about it anymore but unfortunately it is all I can think about so I may as well post, particularly since my name was invoked.
First of all, Aquaman, I have spoken (written) these words to you and others several times in the past.
The New Americans were not just hanging around minding their own business when they ended up getting scalped and such. You must keep in mind that this country was a completely populated area when the newcomers came in and started taking lands by force. As is usually the case when peoples engage in territorial disputes, people on both sides were horribly ravaged. It is not an excuse for either side, but it is the reason for both of them doing so.
Also, it is my understanding based on historical information to which I have become privvy that the French started this whole disgusting scalping thingie. Actually, Europeans became notorious after a time for skinning whole Indians, sometimes when they were still alive. I have seen many references to taking "redskins" as trophies, and it is one historically rumoured speculation that this is where the term "redskins" came from. This is not to say that trophy-taking was one-sided. But then, that is my point.
As for the beheadding issue: I have unfortunately lowered myself to viewing the entire footage after my cousin sent the link to me yesterday. I suppose I wish I had not. But everything happens for a reason.
I think all your posts on this subject are true and accurate reflections of your feelings, and deep feelings about such a subject are always valid. I think some of you have spoken from a very objective standpoint, and would urge others to keep in mind that this ability is a good thing, not a bad thing. However, those of you who have spoken to the improprieties of airing such a video also, I believe, have a good point.
Certainly we all know there are atocities that have been committed by practically everybody on every front in such situations, as PH has so deftly pointed out. However, actually witnessing such a thing happening has, what we call in the courtroom, a "prejudicial effect" that outweighs the "probative value" of viewing such evidence. The reason for avoiding prejudicial material such as this video is that any reasonable, thinking person is at risk of being so outraged that they tend to lose their ability to be intellectually honest with themselves. This was Consiss' point about keeping this in perspective. Many people are simply not able to do that, and I now know that I am one of them based on my emotional reaction to the video.
The only way I could pull myself back into perspective on this was to think, what if it was me standing behind the guy and he was Custer, who was directly responsible for the mutilations of thousands of men, women and their children during his allegedly glorious escapades to eliminate the "nits" because they make "lice." (Actually, the "nits make lice" quote comes from Chivington, not Custer, but they were in the same league and of the same cloth.) That visualization helped a little, because it helped me pull both myself and these people back into the realm of humanity, which they had escaped for the first few hours after I had watched the film.
However, this young man was not Custer. He was an innocent. So in terms of degree again they slipped away from my perspective on humanity.
At any rate, the prejudicial effect of this video clearly outweighs any probative value it might have had for the populace viewing it. But the damage is done. The only thing was can do now is try not to respond in kind, and further try not to let feelings of revenge fester and manifest themselves in our responses in the future, for that would make us just like them. The thing I am trying to say here is that practically anybody can allow themselves to be pushed into a sociopathic disconnect, which these terrorists have allowed in themnselves. If we do the same -- if we come up with justifications for our own horrible responses -- then the cycle of revenge will never stop.
As for the reason my cousin sent the video to me -- well, there are several suspicious things about it and there has been some increasing dialogue about whether this was a wag-the-dog orchestrated to take attention away from the American treatment of the Abu Ghraib prisoners.
The remainder of this post is very graphic and I urge you to be aware of this before reading on. But there are some points I want to bring up about the video.
First, the dating of the Berg body suggests this unfortunate gentleman had been dead two weeks when his body was discovered in Baghdad. This puts his actual date of death before the prisoner information was released.
Second, what's with these six-foot, two-hundred pound terrorists? (The average Middle-Eastern man is about six inches shorter than the Average American.) Anybody notice the Nike-style tennis shoes on the guy on the right? And why is Berg wearing an orange jumpsuit (the kind Americans keep Iraqui prisoners in)? There is rampant debate going on about whether Berg was actually in CIA custody as a suspect prior to this incident. The Berg family has gone so far as to file suit against the U.S. Government over this issue.
Third, did anyone find it strange that not one drop of blood comes from the head as it is held up? And none -- not one drop -- on his face? And none on the guy's hands who did the cutting? Where is the ten-foot blood spray that inevitably would occur as they cut through both his jugular veins? And why does he lie motionless as they are sawing away? I mean unless he was extremely sedated, it just did not look right to me even though I watched it, even though I did so before reading any of these complaints. The speculatiuon here is that this guy was actually already dead when they cut off his head.
All that being said, my first suspicion in accepting the wag-the-dog theory was that it was just easier to think of this whole thing being staged than it was our poor Mr. Berg to have endured this. My second thought was, just who is wagging the dog here? Are all these challenges to the validity of the footage just the democrats' way of using it to their advantage by suggesting it was orchestrated by those in power to detreact attention from our mess-up with the prisoners?
Frankly, I am still shaking and so upset about the whole thing I don't know what to believe. But let this very reaction be a warning to us all; we may not be being very objective about this at the moment.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted May 16, 2004 10:36 PM |
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Peacemaker, that's a bold theory, i don't want to believe in, but "want" has nothing to do with the probability that it might be true. And just relate that to my theory about whose interest it is and why it might be a set up.
Quote:
Though it makes you very ill, I do think it is important for educated people to see what we are fighting against. Anyone with a human heart will soon awaken with a needed clarity towards the despicable creatures terrorists are and that we must take strong action to stop them.
With just one small correction: it's not "educated" people, but "less-educated" ones, that this footage is aimed to. And this is just an example how this tape is employed to justify and strenghten the call for war. (no matter who is responible for the beheading) In fact the true reasons for war are so layered with such "cultural reasons and confrontations", that it takes a deep vision to even glimpse reality here. Generalization and emotional arousal are the weapons used in this war, off the battleground. And this statement is just a confirmation that it is a very efficient method.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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redhawk
Known Hero
Gaurdian Supreme
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posted May 17, 2004 08:16 AM |
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seen the clip, showed it to my troops. anyone care to speculate what i'm feeling right know?
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It's better to burn out, Than fade away !!!!!!!!
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 17, 2004 08:29 AM |
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Quote:
[...] showed it to my troops.
Why?
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Khaelo
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Underwater
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posted May 17, 2004 04:45 PM |
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Edited By: Khaelo on 17 May 2004
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[Edit: Too Much Information removed]
Could a native Arabic speaker identify the accent of the speechmaker in the video? Having (to my shame  ) gone and found the video online, I can easily believe that Berg was already dead when the procedure was performed. However, the political conspiracy is far more suspect.
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Cleverly
disguised as a responsible adult
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted May 17, 2004 08:07 PM |
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Edited By: Consis on 6 Sep 2004
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Khaelo,
You are your own worst critic aren't you? You sure are hard on yourself. I don't have any problems with what you post and I'd say most agree. That's how you came to be voted for mod. Give yourself more credit and please just let the thoughts flow on to the keyboard.
It's a beautiful thing, to know a person
Edit: I'll be damned, we're taking 4000 troops from South Korea to help rotate the troops in Iraq!
Hey RedHawk, it looks like my good old buddy from highschool is going to Iraq too! His name is Captain Keith Wilson. He's a tank commander that was stationed in South Korea. If you meet this guy, you stay close to him. He knows his stuff if you know what I mean. He's a Westpoint grad and a damned fine fellow. Keep your eyes peeled and stay sharp over there.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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