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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 27, 2016 08:46 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 08:47, 27 Jan 2016.
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@JJ
Not quite what I was getting at. By innovation I mostly refer to radical feature changes like removing rare resources, moving spells to the skill system or making magic armies hit as hard as might ones. Playing around with initiative system, army slots, amount of upgrade stages, resource uses, spell-unit-battlefield interaction are all things that can be improved or added within the existing system. That is what I want to see and what H7 is missing.
I think the only such improvement H7 made was giving you a choice between two champions, which isn't even a new feature but one worth revisiting. Well and the revamped governor system but whatever.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted January 27, 2016 01:58 PM |
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Of course both of those features are outshined by h4. Even if the balance was off, having different levels of power between champion units with different growth rates is way more fun and strategic than what h7 gave us. It was actually an option in h4...in h7 I never pick treants, sword masters, cyclops, or black dragons.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2016 02:35 PM |
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Elvin said:
@JJ
Not quite what I was getting at. By innovation I mostly refer to radical feature changes like removing rare resources, moving spells to the skill system or making magic armies hit as hard as might ones. Playing around with initiative system, army slots, amount of upgrade stages, resource uses, spell-unit-battlefield interaction are all things that can be improved or added within the existing system. That is what I want to see and what H7 is missing.
I think the only such improvement H7 made was giving you a choice between two champions, which isn't even a new feature but one worth revisiting. Well and the revamped governor system but whatever.
Ok, so you say Heroes 6 tried a lot - but a lot that shouldn't have been tried in the first place, while H7 tried things that are within the bounds (skill wheel) but suck?
The problem I have with this is, that in the end it doesn't matter whether H6 is no proper Heroes game while H7 is - they both suck, and the end they suck because the responsible developers couldn't see in the planning stages that things wouldn't work out. If H6 had have less problems and shortcomings the "innovation" part wouldn't have been that bad, while with H7 it doesn't help that there are no such things that you'd call innovations, it just makes it glaringly obvious that things are lackluster and uninspired.
I mean, it doesn't matter whether you write a book, make a movie or a record or a game - in the end you can't just slap something together. Instead you need some ideas, and you must forge things together to something interesting. It's good when you have a very real vision of what you actually want, not an abstract goal (best of).
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 27, 2016 02:53 PM |
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H6 changed more but.. tried less  They simplified things they should not have - like adventure map and town development - as if heroes is all about battles. They did make the game faster and smoother but they went overboard.
H7 on the other hand remained stagnant and.. did not try much either. It just brought back what H6 changed and did not do much else.
Doesn't matter much at this point, neither worked out all that well.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted January 27, 2016 03:14 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 15:16, 27 Jan 2016.
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@JJ
A best-of is not an abstract goal, as you very well know is an attempt to take everything which is considered very good from different titles, and put them together. As in, I like this in that iteration which is lacking from this one, both together would be awesome.
But there is a few pre-requisites to make it right.
First, you need to agree which are the features considered the best and see how they can work together. I know it is impossible for EVERYONE to agree but it is hard not to see there is a general trend about most features, which are popular and got good reception and which aren't. Anyone feel free to correct me but I think I can safely say regarding:
Skill system = Heroes 5
Magic system = Heroes 4
Hero specials = Heroes 5
Creature alternatives = Heroes 4
Creature upgrades = Heroes 2
Content and adventure map = Heroes 3
Town construction tree = Heroes 3 (although maybe more than I think might disagree)
Battle system = Heroes 5
Of course all these have their respective flaws and only by basing the game on these and reworking/tweaking/improving them not a lot can go wrong. Then things like creature abilities just need not to be redundant, resource management for construction and recruiting is mostly balancing and the game has to be fast and well optimized with competent AI.
Then, obviously the people designing must have a VERY GOOD understanding of how all things works and ONLY THEN can ADD some new things in a coherent manner on top of what has been proven by the test of time is working in this franchise and making more than a decade old games still heavily played and modded. Having a vision also means having a good knowledge of the series, otherwise you might as well do another game. And if the people in charge of the game design don't have this knowledge and understanding, please they must have the humility to seek advice and consider what the veterans will tell them, dismissing the advices from dedicated players and analysts is nothing but arrogance and that never makes any good.
I actually would have been THRILLED if H7 would have been a REAL best-of, containing all the most popular features with brand new quality graphics, and not the mumbo-jumbo it actually is, and at this point a lack of innovation would only rate the game around 7 or 8 instead of 9 or 10. IMO
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted January 27, 2016 03:28 PM |
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The_green_drag said:
Of course both of those features are outshined by h4. Even if the balance was off, having different levels of power between champion units with different growth rates is way more fun and strategic than what h7 gave us. It was actually an option in h4...in h7 I never pick treants, sword masters, cyclops, or black dragons.
Funny, but I never pick Green/Emerald Dragons, Behemoths or Hydras  . Usually pick the Celestials, like you, though.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2016 03:39 PM |
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I think it's way too much looking back and way too less looking forward. The idea of mashing up everything we perceived best at past series is flawed at its core and I think Heroes 7 proved that conclusively. A new approach, a coherent vision and a competent developer are required, and that's the reason why Heroes is doomed to mediocrity.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted January 27, 2016 03:54 PM |
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Edited by articun at 15:55, 27 Jan 2016.
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Hm... I didn't know people liked some units not to have upgrades. Of course Minastir and i did try to create a unit tier system that combines Heroes IV, Heroes III and Heroes V in our project for Inolin in Altar of Wishes. Although i would say that Heroes IV adventure map was better than Heroes III, or rather, Heroes III in a game today would feel very weird.
That is unless Heroes VIII would be made instead of a 3D game into a game closer to the aesthetic of Banner Saga, full 2D but with beautiful artworks and unified feel. To be honest, i would love for Heroes II and III to be remastered in such a form. It would suit the game and also do them justice.
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted January 27, 2016 04:06 PM |
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Edited by fuChris at 16:07, 27 Jan 2016.
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Galaad said:
Creature upgrades = Heroes 2
YES PLEASE! I always found that restricting units to only one upgrade was foolish while found that some units didn't need any at all.
I would also like to see H5 Heavens training, TotEs Necromancy, H4 Preserves Creature Portal, H3 Stronghold slave market(which also works in reverse) and a less tedious form of H3 Inferno demon farming implemented as well. Something for each faction to profit from capturing foreign towns.
Stevie said:
The idea of mashing up everything we perceived best at past series is flawed at its core and I think Heroes 7 proved that conclusively.
The only thing H7 proved is that it can serve as a case study in corporate mismanagement. lol
You are making things out to be much more complicated then they actually are. All the things Galaad mentioned are basically what is expected by the community. After these things are functionally implemented the all thats left is to goddamn playtest the thing for a while instead of releasing it in pre alpha state. The lacking developers vision is something you might confuse with simple lack polish. H5 had vision but it was a pretty average game untill it recieved TotE which had both game testing and a proper polish.
Looking back at H6 through eyes that have witnessed H7, it was a game with vision. A blurry heavily spectacled vision but still...
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted January 27, 2016 04:14 PM |
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I also think that Heroes VII did not use the best aspects of the previous games it could use. I mean it mostly used aspects from Heroes VI mostly. I didn't see something true come out of Heroes II, III or V and into Heroes VIII. I agree mostly with the List that Galaad posted and i doubt that a Heroes game with those aspects if done quite right might truly fail.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted January 27, 2016 04:49 PM |
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Maurice said:
Funny, but I never pick Green/Emerald Dragons, Behemoths or Hydras . Usually pick the Celestials, like you, though.
My point exactly! We mostly pick one of the two and stick with it since they have such similar stats and the same growth rates. Necropolis and Academy are the only real toss ups for me based on what kind of hero I want to play.
Resources are not even a factor since they have the same gold cost of 12,000 and the majority of them cost 5 of the same rare resource and 5 of a different one. And by the time you get a level 15 town I have about 15 of every resource anyways so it's pointless..
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted January 27, 2016 05:24 PM |
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The_Green_Drag said:
My point exactly! We mostly pick one of the two and stick with it since they have such similar stats and the same growth rates.
Actually, I am pretty much of a turtle in my approach. That means I rely rather heavily on Shooters and use my melee units mostly to defend them, rather than to charge blindly into enemy ranks. Hence my favorism towards the Treant and Cyclops. The reason I prefer the Black Dragon is because it's a flyer as opposed to the Hydra which is a walker. Flyers can be put to use more flexible than walkers, especially when there are a lot of obstacles on the playfield.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted January 27, 2016 09:04 PM |
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Maurice said:
Actually, I am pretty much of a turtle in my approach.
Well too bad for you! Cause the insightful H7 developers took precautions to ensure turtling was no more, just like they said they would!! Haha....hah.......hehe..........ha..................
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 27, 2016 09:31 PM |
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Ideally both strategies should be viable but there should be ways to break turtling formations. H6 did not have any and it was painful.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 27, 2016 09:45 PM |
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Regarding turtle-tactics, could somebody please explain why shooters don't have limited ammo in h7? And don't say it's because they copied h6 system since AFAIK you can set ammo limit in editor...
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The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted January 27, 2016 09:46 PM |
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It's cause they've reduced the movement of so many units since h5...I hate that the most about Ubi heroes. Best way to stop turtling: have your dragon fly over there and breathe fire all over them. Problem solved.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted January 27, 2016 10:05 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 22:18, 27 Jan 2016.
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The_green_drag said:
It's cause they've reduced the movement of so many units since h5
But a lot of units especially in H6 could cross the field in two turns.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 27, 2016 10:17 PM |
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Is there a single unit in h7 that doesn't cross the battle-field in 2 turns? There are few who do it in one, but almost all units seem to move roughly the same.
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The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted January 27, 2016 10:30 PM |
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TD said:
Is there a single unit in h7 that doesn't cross the battle-field in 2 turns? There are few who do it in one, but almost all units seem to move roughly the same.
Yeah I've brought this up before, it's really dumb how simplified all the unit stats are from one another. There are a small handful of Unupgraded units with 4 movement that take 3 turns, but most of them take only 2. Really only the simurgh (8 movement, large creature) can move across the field , a few more can if its a large unit across from them (7 movement) and rest have 5 or 6.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted January 27, 2016 11:45 PM |
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TD said:
Is there a single unit in h7 that doesn't cross the battle-field in 2 turns? There are few who do it in one, but almost all units seem to move roughly the same.
That does depend on the actual battlefield. There's one in the underground that takes about 5 turns to cross or so .
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
