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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 26, 2017 06:57 PM |
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I have considered tampering with it but didn't want the hero action to come too early. In that respect a value of 10.5 would not upset starting atb much though its impact would remain to be seen. I'd be curious to see how that works.
I have been using the 90% atb mass spells and I am actually happy for the atb shuffle. It works better than full turn imo.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 26, 2017 06:59 PM |
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Your theory about comparing with creatures actually sets up an argument for changing sorcery to 11,22,33% because 33% makes exactly 15 initiative, so comparing will be easier than with 14,28.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 26, 2017 07:01 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 19:06, 26 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said:
Your theory about comparing with creatures actually sets up an argument for changing sorcery to 11,22,33% because 33% makes exactly 15 initiative, so comparing will be easier than with 14,28.
Yes, it will have both pluses and minuses for perception (if we consider the course of the hero relative to the rounds). But I would prefer 10/20/30 (do not make changes).
Elvin said:
I have been using the 90% atb mass spells and I am actually happy for the atb shuffle. It works better than full turn imo.
Shuffle is good argument but only work if enemy hero casts single spells without sorcery or simple beats.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 26, 2017 07:06 PM |
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For same reason optimum mass ATB value = 0.167 = 12 initiative. I think if you mention the initiative numbers in the description, players understand the validity of them.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 26, 2017 07:12 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 19:15, 26 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said:
For same reason optimum mass ATB value = 0.167 = 12 initiative. I think if you mention the initiative numbers in the description, players understand the validity of them.
You see only at ratio of initiatives.
But for comparisson with spell durations it will be less comfortable than 0.1 steps. So if I have duration of 2.7 for example and 0.1 atb after cast than easy to calculte 2.7/0.9 = 3 turns of hero.
So this is complex question you can't optimize both ratio but can choose the most important from them.
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dredknight
Honorable
Legendary Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted September 26, 2017 07:14 PM |
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Magno, if anything does not bother you besides hero/spell init being different than 10 I think you can freely go ahead and do it both for spells and heroes - thus spell turn duration will be measured with regards to hero turns as it has always been.
Regarding mass atb reset to 0.15 - You have a point, if set to 0.0 it makes opposite casts punish magic heroes significantly, plus it makes the pace of the game the same compared to Might ones.
Worst case scenario - if all spells on both sides are casted with 0.0 and the opponent Might has the luck to be just behind the magic hero he will be able to constantly negate mass spells if can.
@Nargott, your decisions are not really objective you mind the 10.5 value but disregard the 14.28 thing which has the same issue as it will be very common as sorcery is very important feat for magic heroes.
Based on the things you do wrote here I can freely go with -
hero + spell init 10.5 , mass spells to 0.15, sorcery to 30
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 26, 2017 07:20 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 19:48, 26 Sep 2017.
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dredknight said:
@Nargott, your decisions are not really objective you mind the 10.5 value but disregard the 14.28 thing which has the same issue as it will be very common as sorcery is very important feat for magic heroes.
Based on the things you do wrote here I can freely go with -
hero + spell init 10.5 , mass spells to 0.15, sorcery to 30
I had wrote above why 30% sorcery is comfortable.
For me there are 2 important factors:
1) how spell duration interracts with hero ini (so ini round = hero base ini is best), because it's important to know when hero can cast this spell again, it will be ended or not? so any duration in rounds divided to 0.9/0.8/0.7 is comfortable (unlike divided to 0.89 and 0.78 at 11/22% sorcery)
2) how spell duration interracts with creature ini (so 10 ini round is best), because it's important to know when unit will have next move, effect will be ended or not?
And:
3) how hero ini interracts with creature ini is less important (for practical counts) because I can see it on ATB without any calculations (if have no sorcery or if mass atb is 0.0)
So what is bad about any mass atb other than 0.0 is the fact that what the hell does the hero cast more powerful versions of spells faster than the more simple?
You write about Might heroes, but Might heroes will cast mass spells oftenly than Magic and have the same ATB after it as Magic (0.0 or 0.1 or 0.15 etc. is no important for it).
You write later about small time between casts (if counter), so why do you change 0.5 ATB?
0.5 is better at this component than 0.1 or 0.15 or 0.167.
How to deremine where is the most optimal variant? This is very interesting question.
Less than expert sorcery (so Might hero have not possibilities casting often than Magic). Ok. But what about mass cast + empathy?
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 26, 2017 07:46 PM |
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@Nargott: your arguments about 10.5 ini and 0.3 Sorcery are contradictory and cannot be reconciled.
Quote:
So what is bad about any mass atb other than 0.0 is the fact that what the hell does the hero cast more powerful versions of spells faster than the more simple?
No that is completely irrelevant, as soon as a mass version of a spell is learned the single version is retired, since the cost difference is very small.
Also if the hero has sorcery than the single version is still faster.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 26, 2017 07:52 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 19:59, 26 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said:
No that is completely irrelevant, as soon as a mass version of a spell is learned the single version is retired, since the cost difference is very small.
So, in current reality of MMH5.5 where mass spells influence all creatures not 4x4 area and where mana cost is very cheap (because "unlimited" 200+ mana) it is fair. But strange whatever.
Quote:
@Nargott: your arguments about 10.5 ini and 0.3 Sorcery are contradictory and cannot be reconciled.
I'm sorry that you do not read carefully what I'm writing. So you want to win discussion but not want to understand where are problems, so trying find contradictions.
I had wrote 3 different criteria about hero/spell/creature ini, so you can't ignore any of them but can determine what is more important and what is less when try to find optimal numbers.
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dredknight
Honorable
Legendary Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted September 26, 2017 07:54 PM |
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Nargott said:
So what is bad about any mass atb other than 0.0 is the fact that what the hell does the hero cast more powerful versions of spells faster than the more simple?
The reason behind increasing init for mass spells instead of spell effect is that low init is it gives a huge gap of penalty time if the spell was counter casted or dispelled by Might. Also a little less downtime in blessings will help in PvE for heroes that start with Light and Dark skills as due to the lack of direct damage spells early game is a bit tougher for them.
Regarding your topics:
1) making hero and spell init value the same fixes this problem
2) This point is not practically valid as hero and creature initiative are never set to the same state. Also a lot of units have different init than 10. Here is a math you need to do to check if unit will have effect next turn.
- if spell_duration_at_unit_turn > (Unit_init)/10.5 = the effect will be available on the next round.
The formula is the same for the current system you just use a division if 10.
- Spells like haste or slow completely mess the unit initiative even further so you are forced to make the math there even with the current system.
Nargott said:
You write about Might heroes, but Might heroes will cast mass spells oftenly than Magic and have the same ATB after it as Magic (0.0 or 0.1 or 0.15 etc. is no important for it).
Same thing I told about Might vs Magic is valid against Might vs Might mass spellers. If mass ATB is 0.0 and hero 1 casts mass bless while the second casts mass curse, the first hero will never be able to cut the chain.
While with 0.15 any of the hero can increase the ATB difference between hero if he performs other than mass action - melee attack or single cast. Complementing this with Combat perks which cost 0.5 of a turn add up for a whole new mind game inside the actual game.
Nargott said:
You write later about small time between casts (if counter), so why do you change 0.5 ATB?
0.5 is better at this component than 0.1 or 0.15 or 0.167.
How to deremine where is the most optimal variant? This is very interesting question.
If we talk just numbers we can go with anything between 0.0 > x < 1.0
1. we want meaningful single spells for heroes that do have mass versions - as you can recall mass spells have also single casts which should be good enough. If ATB is cut significantly (0.5) we have to reduce spell effect which makes the single spell even less desirable for use because it takes full turn (without sorcery) and affects just 1 creature.
2. Might vs Might; Might vs Magic counters which I already explained.
3. Increase in PvE reaction of non-direct damage Magic casters.
4. Bonus perk - the atb change should also disrupts the pace between any heroes which creates a type of mind game as I explained above.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 26, 2017 08:00 PM |
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Quote:
So, in current reality of MMH5.5 where mass spells influence all creatures not 4x4 area and where mana cost is very cheap (because "unlimited" 200+ mana) it is fair. But strange whatever.
4x4 vs All is irrelevant, it depends of strength of spell and your haste was even cheaper than mine.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 26, 2017 08:03 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 20:36, 26 Sep 2017.
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Quote:
2) This point is not practically valid as hero and creature initiative are never set to the same state.
No no. It is very practically. So you may write about theoretical in global game, but about combat I'm very active and practical player.
Heroes' ATB or starting ATB of spell does not matter in this case. So when any creature will move, I see at any spell current duration I want (by click) and compare it with current creature ini to understand if a creature will have time to move next time before it ends or not.
Quote:
- if spell_duration_at_unit_turn > (Unit_init)/10.5 = the effect will be available on the next round.
The formula is the same for the current system you just use a division if 10.
Yes, and division by 10.5 is that thing that I don't want to do because don't want to use external calculator.
Quote:
While with 0.15 any of the hero can increase the ATB difference between hero if he performs other than mass action - melee attack or single cast.
This is right argument.
Quote:
2. Might vs Might; Might vs Magic counters which I already explained.
3. Increase in PvE reaction of non-direct damage Magic casters.
4. Bonus perk - the atb change should also disrupts the pace between any heroes which creates a type of mind game as I explained above.
All of them is fair to 0.1 for example, but why 0.15? Is it just middle between 0 and expert sorcery? Do you took into account the work of detain? So if you want to do other than 0 or 0.5 ATB, it is good to have concrete numbers considering all factors where that numbers are principled.
magnomagus said:
4x4 vs All is irrelevant, it depends of strength of spell and your haste was even cheaper than mine.
Yes, but less powerful and mana can be dealt by higher expensive spells (not unlimited).
So, you may ignore this, because in reality of MMH5.5 this is very difficult to get mana shortage that double price will limit a player. But this is real if you come to another spell system.
In WGE (another possible system) you may have 15-20 mana for combat (if 10% knowledge). And single buffs at 1-5 cost (3-5 for powerful buffs), so double price for 4x4 area effect does not always is advantageous because it is very thoughtful to select spells and their mana cost. This is just example how to set up the game and not complain about the fact that the double price is "too cheap". (but if you find a way to get other cost, triple or more, it will be interesting)
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 26, 2017 08:32 PM |
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It is a pity that mass spells cannot have a different formula from the basic ones. That would allow single spells to remain relevant..
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 26, 2017 08:37 PM |
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Quote:
So, you may ignore this, because in reality of MMH5.5 this is very difficult to get mana shortage that double price will limit a player. But this is real if you come to another spell system.
In WGE (another possible system) you may have 15-20 mana for combat (if low knowledge). And single buffs at 1-5 cost (3-5 for powerful buffs), so double price for 4x4 area effect does not always is advantageous because it is very thoughtful to select spells. This is just example how to set up the game and not complain about the fact that the double price is too cheap
You are constantly assuming that MMH5.5 means long game, which is not the case, 80 mana could be normal on many maps.
20 mana example however is weird, even if a hero ends up with only 20 mana it still a in most cases a much better idea to cast mass haste for 10 then single haste for 5.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 26, 2017 08:39 PM |
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Elvin said:
It is a pity that mass spells cannot have a different formula from the basic ones. That would allow single spells to remain relevant..
This is possible in theory.
You set buffs/debuffs stronger at no-skill level than any skill level. Because if you have mass spells, you have skill > none always.
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dredknight
Honorable
Legendary Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted September 26, 2017 08:39 PM |
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@Nargott one thing you take into account inappropriately is that you take decisions based on finite universe. Taking WGE as an example - there is max adventure map play time, max mana pool that can be reached , max unit count that can be gathered etc..
When some process is finite this helps you reverse engineer everything behind. You know how you start you know how it will end you just do the math in between. The shorter the range between start and finish the easier it is make decisions as there is less time variables to go wild.
The problem with MMH55 is that theoretically games can stretch very very long time just as very short. So there are some compromise that should be made with some things. One of them for example is the mana.
Mana is meant to be infinite at some point. Mana cap is relevant only early to mid game when Might heroes are less powerful as well. Anytime beyond that:
- If Magic hero goes out of mana in PvE he will get heavy casualties.
- If Magic hero goes out of mana in PvP battle he will straight lose the game.
Mana is actually not important even for Might hero if they rely only on bless/curse as their effectiveness depends on SP which they do not have. In such occasions duration plays a huge role as a time consumer for might heroes as they often have to recast blesses.
This system evens out Magic and Mights. Mana is usually low early game no matter what and very high late game no matter what. What we want to balance is the equal progression of both parties in between those two phases.
All those believes are formed by the shortcomings of the heroes V core mechanics as a whole.
This was not meant as a response to any conversation but as an overview of the contradictions between your visions and ours.
@Magno, you can add something of your own if you wish.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 26, 2017 08:41 PM |
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That doesn't help. If you already have mass spells, their basic versions will have the same mastery.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 26, 2017 08:42 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 20:54, 26 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said:
You are constantly assuming that MMH5.5 means long game, which is not the case, 80 mana could be normal on many maps.
20 mana example however is weird, even if a hero ends up with only 20 mana it still a in most cases a much better idea to cast mass haste for 10 then single haste for 5.
80 mana is not good limit for current costs, but 40-50 is.
Quote:
20 mana example however is weird, even if a hero ends up with only 20 mana it still a in most cases a much better idea to cast mass haste for 10 then single haste for 5.
If 4x4 area, often but not always.
Elvin said:
That doesn't help. If you already have mass spells, their basic versions will have the same mastery.
Yes, this is only partial solution.
dredknight said:
@Nargott one thing you take into account inappropriately is that you take decisions based on finite universe. Taking WGE as an example - there is max adventure map play time, max mana pool that can be reached , max unit count that can be gathered etc..
Yes it is, but a certain reserve I left (in WGE you have 5 mana per 1 knowledge but 40% mana regeneration per day, 2 mana per 1 knowledge).
Level 1 spells cost 1-2 mana but level 5 spells cost 20-30 mana (so the same system I had proposed to you with 5/10/20/40/80 costs).
Because this wide cost range is maximally optimized for earlier and later game both, for low and high knowledge.
(so power of 1 level spells in WGE ~33% of power of 5 level spells, despite the huge difference in price)
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 26, 2017 08:49 PM |
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Quote:
80 mana is not good limit for current costs, but 40-50 is.
That's nonsense, if spell cost end up in 30-40, they can actually end up 45-60 mana with perks, so you may not even be capable of casting one such spell.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 26, 2017 08:56 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 20:58, 26 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said:
That's nonsense, if spell cost end up in 30-40, they can actually end up 45-60 mana with perks, so you may not even be capable of casting one such spell.
30-40 for Might hero with 10% knowledge? Might hero with such knowledge doesn't know these spells, his ceiling is level 3 spells unless he gathers powerful relic artifacts for great knowledge bonus!
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