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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 437 pages long: 1 50 100 150 200 250 ... 288 289 290 291 292 ... 300 350 400 437 · «PREV / NEXT»
magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 26, 2017 08:58 PM

Duh, a might hero would not have 80 but 40 in such case.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 26, 2017 09:04 PM
Edited by Nargott at 21:09, 26 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
Duh, a might hero would not have 80 but 40 in such case.

Then no questions, but in this case, situations are possible when the single spell is better, if has equal tempo. Not often, but possible. 4x4 Dispel is this example. And doing mass spells faster make this situations more rare.

In fact, I like 0.1 atb in the way that wrote dredknight, but it's hard to say whether like more than 0.0 or less.

I think clearly that 0.1 atb > 0.15 > 0.2 > 0.5. Because 0.1 is enough value for shuffle heroes at ATB, and because don't want to have more tempo for mass spells.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 26, 2017 09:28 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 21:32, 26 Sep 2017.

I'm currently interested in testing 11,22,33 + 0,167

In my opinion the ATB reduction (compared to sorcery) is just an additional cost factor, because the mana cost is too low, but I like the ATB reshuffle as extra bonus.

If mass haste costs something like 40 mana, there would be little difference to why puppet master would not have an ATB reduction, while mass haste would get one.

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 26, 2017 09:47 PM
Edited by Nargott at 21:56, 26 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
I'm currently interested in testing 11,22,33 + 0,167

So you have 9/8 and 9/7 uncomfortable values if have basic/advanced sorcery. And with 25% detain or 15% distract which are nightmare for counting
As I think, the most comfortable numbers are:
10/20/30% sorcery
20% distract
30% detain
But you think that 20% distract is imba, although it is useless in PvE and is good counter only against heroes with sorcery.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 26, 2017 10:18 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 22:24, 26 Sep 2017.

I'm not sure why I would care so much at the difficult calculations at basic & advanced, this is likely only during PvE phase of game. The point is to have 15 in PvP battle.

I recall somebody testing detain being hardcoded at 25%, even if you change value in defaultstats.

Distract at 0.15 would be a logical counter for mass atb also 0.15. I think I like those values to be the same.

EDIT

Just out of curiosity, which of the following situations would you consider worse for counting:

hero initiative 10 with sorcery 11,22,33

OR

hero initiative 10.5 with sorcery 10,20,30

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 26, 2017 10:29 PM
Edited by Nargott at 22:33, 26 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:

Just out of curiosity, which of the following situations would you consider worse for counting:

hero initiative 10 with sorcery 11,22,33

OR

hero initiative 10.5 with sorcery 10,20,30


The first, don't change hero base ini. Only sorcery is less expensive change.
But if an opponent get detain or distract, will be bad having 8/18 numbers.

Quote:
I recall somebody testing detain being hardcoded at 25%, even if you change value in defaultstats.

Sure? I didn't test it. Only that fact about negative ATB.

Quote:
Distract at 0.15 would be a logical counter for mass atb also 0.15. I think I like those values to be the same.

If mass atb is 0 or 0.1 it doesn't matter.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 26, 2017 10:39 PM

I had detain at 30% in the past but somebody else tested it for me.

If distract counters bigger bonus it is more meaningful.


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mward15
mward15

Tavern Dweller
posted September 26, 2017 10:42 PM
Edited by mward15 at 22:45, 26 Sep 2017.

Thank you for a great mod! It's great for "normal" game mode, but sadly it's very unbalanced for "Duel Heroes" mode. Some heroes are very underpowered and some are too overpowered, Probably the most clear example of it - is orc heroes vs Vittorio and his crazy ballista. It is impossible for Haggesh to defeat Vittorio, even if Vittorio is auto-controlled, because Haggesh has too small amount of troops! E.g. Haggesh has two stacks of 60 x centaurs, meanwhile Vittorio has two stacks of 120 x upgraded archers - and his ballista destroys the whole stack of centaurs in a single turn! Similar problem with Garuna. Luckily Shak'Karukat could defeat Vittorio thanks to Foul Wyvern's regeneration / Paokai's scavenger abilities, which help to stand against this mighty ballista

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 26, 2017 10:46 PM

hello mward15, duel mode is not implemented in H55!, there is only beta version posted in thread from Skeggy below
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 26, 2017 11:11 PM

Quote:
So you have 9/8 and 9/7 uncomfortable values if have basic/advanced sorcery.


just realized something else, if difference is only 11,23 vs 11,11 and 12,82 vs 12,5, the difference is so small. Can't you just use the same calculation as 0.9 and 0.8 and arrive at same conclusion in 98% of cases?
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 26, 2017 11:26 PM
Edited by Nargott at 23:32, 26 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
just realized something else, if difference is only 11,23 vs 11,11 and 12,82 vs 12,5, the difference is so small. Can't you just use the same calculation as 0.9 and 0.8 and arrive at same conclusion in 98% of cases?

10*9/8 = 11,25 instead of 10*10/9 = 11,11
10*9/7 = 12,86 instead of 10*10/8 = 12,5
Oh, you use exactly 11% value instead of 1/9, so having not 15 ini at expert but 14,93.
Using rounding in calculations is not problem, but is unpleasant, where they were not in TotE.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 26, 2017 11:30 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 23:33, 26 Sep 2017.

whatever, I'm getting tired, can you just answer the question?

EDIT:

Actually it depends on the amount of decimal places the patcher allows me.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 26, 2017 11:46 PM
Edited by Nargott at 23:49, 26 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
whatever, I'm getting tired, can you just answer the question?

This is not principled thing, but is not principled improvement also.
So on lesser numbers +5% power of spells doesn't strong differs from +4.5% tempo (70/67) but is more conveniently (because you change spells anyway).

So the main argument to do bigger iniative or bigger sorcery is not what gameplay needs but to "equality" hero initiative and the "hospital's average" initiative of units, how I understand.

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mward15
mward15

Tavern Dweller
posted September 26, 2017 11:51 PM
Edited by mward15 at 23:54, 26 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
hello mward15, duel mode is not implemented in H55!, there is only beta version posted in thread from Skeggy below


Thats strange... I am using the latest H5.5 executable "5.59b" at bottom left corner, without any other mods,
and still could go at Network Game -> One PC (Hotseat) -> Duel -> choose two heroes and start a fight

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 26, 2017 11:59 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 00:01, 27 Sep 2017.

It is probably worth mentioning, the game had 36% sorcery for more than a year without anyone ever complaining.

But as I previously mentioned in general I believe in order to balance might vs magic, I prefer a system of more frequent use of 'weaker' abilities vs less frequent use of 'stronger' abilities. because it reduces chance for battle result hinging only on one or two spell casting events.

Quote:
Thats strange... I am using the latest H5.5 executable "5.59b" at bottom left corner, without any other mods,
and still could go at Network Game -> One PC (Hotseat) -> Duel -> choose two heroes and start a fight


this game section was never touched, therefore it is screwed up.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 27, 2017 12:16 AM
Edited by Nargott at 00:30, 27 Sep 2017.

If you want to change ini, maybe for your game is better to have 10 ini? 11 ini? 12 ini? 15 ini? How do you know without testing? Do you have any criteria? Because selecting exactly unit's average is how to poke the finger at the sky.

In WGE I have similar relative counts, but getting another way. So there were 4 groups for ini: 7-8, 9-10, 11-12 and 13-15 and average was 9.7, lesser than ini of hero 10. But it was a natural distribution, if you ask why hero is faster than average, the answer will be: randomly. I did not set out to find the optimal ratio of hero initiative relative to troops initiative because had no idea of clear criteria. If I can't see clear criteria I can't find exactly optimal value. So hero was faster than 60% of units, it was near to 50% and therefore it was acceptable.

Quote:
It is probably worth mentioning, the game had 36% sorcery for more than a year without anyone ever complaining.

There are several serious problems with balance which I had show (like goblins) even not playing, but nobody ever complaining. It means that nobody does not carefally test, or many players play only singleplayer / versus AI?

EDIT: So I suspect that many things we discuss are hardcore and 99% players doesn't notice any of them, do you make 10% sorcery or 11% or 12%, "nobody ever complaining".

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 27, 2017 12:25 AM
Edited by magnomagus at 00:32, 27 Sep 2017.

I never systematically rebuild stats from ground up, in old RPE mod I was extremely conservative with creature stats because I was afraid people would discard mod with too many changes, but later I got more loose and somehow mod also became more popular.

But nonetheless system is still TOE like with some very fast factions sylvan,inferno & stronghold 11+ average, so magic heroes start to feel slow in late game at 14.28 and difficult to keep up with large armies with lots of A & D.

In beta duel mode from skeggy magic heroes still felt underpowered at 36%, but now after all recent changes feels a lot better.

Quote:
There are several serious problems with balance which I had show (like goblins) even not playing, but nobody ever complaining. It means that nobody does not carefally test, or many players plays only singleplayer / versus AI?


My point was basically I know only one player who does 'counting' and he is not playing my mod anyway. If player does 'counting' this would popup much faster than goblin defilers.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 27, 2017 12:55 AM
Edited by Nargott at 00:56, 27 Sep 2017.

Quote:
But nonetheless system is still TOE like with some very fast factions sylvan,inferno & stronghold 11+ average, so magic heroes start to feel slow in late game at 14.28 and difficult to keep up with large armies with lots of A & D.

In beta duel mode from skeggy magic heroes still felt underpowered at 36%, but now after all recent changes feels a lot better.

You write that magic is weak, because its' tempo is not enough. But tempo is influence per round, so you may boost initiative or boost power. If you double your troops (which were balanced) so you would see that magic is underpowered again, so again boosting ini?

I think it's better to find optimal ini and fixate it, regardless of whether strong magic or weak magic, and issues with balance to be solved by power of spells, not ini. Because ini is more "gameplay" stat than power.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 27, 2017 01:15 AM
Edited by magnomagus at 01:21, 27 Sep 2017.

Quote:
I did not set out to find the optimal ratio of hero initiative relative to troops initiative because had no idea of clear criteria.


Because in old heroes games, heroes act once every turn, just like creatures, I thought the proper translation to heroes 5 is to use the average initiative of creatures. I find it a clear criteria or at least there isn't anything better.

So yes I think I will fixate on that and fix the remaining issues with spell balance. (but keep hero base ini at 10)
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 27, 2017 02:01 AM
Edited by Nargott at 02:04, 27 Sep 2017.

Yes, average ini of upgraded units is ~10.5 (and ~10 for base).
But the hero has options to get Sorcery or/and Soft Mind and getting ~14.3 ini.
And units even with +5 of 50% morale have x1.33 = 14.0 ini excluding the first move.
So I can't say that units are faster clearly, so it is not clear criteria.
Haste is not argument because of slow, and sorrow.
Artifacts for ini? There are many new artifacts in your game, so I don't know this situation very well.
If you want to compare your hero with opponent's creatures with expert leadership and expert haste and with initiative artifacts, so your hero will be slower much more (and with 11 ini too).
Hmm. You add Prayer as the common perk, so have extra +10% ini from it.

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