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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted May 31, 2007 01:13 PM |
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look on AoH at the dungeon alternate upgrades and you will see that the red dragon costs less gold and only one sulfur
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted May 31, 2007 04:31 PM |
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As you can see, price of ALL alternative lv7s are reduced compared to originals.... so its very HIGHLY probable that upgraded lv7 prices will be reduced OVERALL (including old upgrades)..
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cicakkia
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 02, 2007 03:49 PM |
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Hmmm.....(looking each alternate units) the appearance alternate sylvan and inferno units are just look the same as the original, just color a bit different. Very dissapointed. But dungeon units is somewhat so freakin awesome especially Hydra, red dragon and black rider 
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted June 03, 2007 01:44 AM |
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This will be good. Aside from retarded names (Acidic Hydra wtf?) this is only going to further increase the strategic options, and rather than choosing the overall better unit, players will have to choose what kind of units they are going to need against the TYPE of enemies they are facing, as I reckon one upgrade would work better against a certain faction than the other.
Also it will make it more difficult to expect what other players might have in their armies. Before, if you knew the faction, you knew the creatures it had.
In general I find this idea of adding an alternative upgrade a grand improvement in the Heroes series.
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spointz2020
Hired Hero
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posted June 03, 2007 07:10 AM |
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Quote:
This will be good. Aside from retarded names (Acidic Hydra wtf?) this is only going to further increase the strategic options, and rather than choosing the overall better unit, players will have to choose what kind of units they are going to need against the TYPE of enemies they are facing, as I reckon one upgrade would work better against a certain faction than the other.
Also it will make it more difficult to expect what other players might have in their armies. Before, if you knew the faction, you knew the creatures it had.
In general I find this idea of adding an alternative upgrade a grand improvement in the Heroes series.
yea but it rlly doesn't matter which upgrad path u chose for each unit, cuz u can just change it to other upgrade anytime - perhaps even for free! And even if we had to pay, it woudl still be not as strategically involved at all compared to the possibilities had they made it so we could only choose one upgrade for each unit, WITHOUT any switch.... which would kinda morph the good aspect of Heroes IV into Heroes III... unfortunately Nival doesn't seem to wanna rlly seize the chance to improve on the strategic based side of the series 
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 03, 2007 10:28 AM |
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I disagree with this, actually. Making it impossible to change the upgrade will mean that you have to choose one over the other, perhaps before you have any chance of assesing the nature of your enemy. That will in effect leave you drawing random shots. On the other hand, when you can change it, it allows you to addapt to the nature and tactic of your enemy, thus actually using your tactical knowledge yourself.
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What will happen now?
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Lesij
Famous Hero
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posted June 03, 2007 11:05 AM |
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Moreover, those upgs will make teh game more varied and new possibilitesi will make it even more interesting, than it is now...
Can't just wait to play Orcs
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted June 03, 2007 12:39 PM |
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Quote:
I disagree with this, actually. Making it impossible to change the upgrade will mean that you have to choose one over the other, perhaps before you have any chance of assesing the nature of your enemy. That will in effect leave you drawing random shots. On the other hand, when you can change it, it allows you to addapt to the nature and tactic of your enemy, thus actually using your tactical knowledge yourself.
For me, it disables the strategic aspect, because you will be able to shift creatures nearly at will, so there are no bad choices, as you can easily reverse your bad choice. And this kills strategy  . Why no heroes being able to change skills and abilities then  ?
IMO there should be an additional cost for changing between upgrades, to make it at least uneasy.
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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radar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
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posted June 03, 2007 12:42 PM |
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Quote:
it disables the strategic aspect, because you will be able to shift creatures nearly at will, so there are no bad choices
for me, thats the tactic, choosing a better way to win
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted June 03, 2007 02:29 PM |
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@Executor: Do we know the cost's won't be expensive?
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted June 03, 2007 03:13 PM |
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Quote:
For me, it disables the strategic aspect, because you will be able to shift creatures nearly at will
Yeah, but what if you play against a random PC opponent, or more different factions? For example, if one upgrade is good against necros, and the other against dungeon, what if you play against them both? You'll have to change and customize your lineups accordingly if you want to survive... So it even ADDS to the strategic aspect, not disables it.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 03, 2007 03:15 PM |
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Disables the strategic aspect.. wait a second, what strategic aspect are you talking about? Is being forced to use only 1 upgrade a strategy aspect? I beg to differ.
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Orfinn
Supreme Hero
Werewolf Duke
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posted June 03, 2007 04:13 PM |
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Quote:
As you can see, price of ALL alternative lv7s are reduced compared to originals.... so its very HIGHLY probable that upgraded lv7 prices will be reduced OVERALL (including old upgrades)..
I really hope so or there wont be an alternative after all
Oh and I hope the Blade Singer wont be that strong or everbody will go for it. Anyway I guess he dont have that adjecent foes attack that the war dancer has, to balance it a bit.
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted June 03, 2007 05:35 PM |
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Edited by executor at 17:36, 03 Jun 2007.
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I mean that if you can retrain for free, then you cannot make a bad choice (i.e. your choice has no bad consequences), and therefore I think that even retraining from a more expensive upgrade to the cheaper one should cost(and I would rather see retraining being non-avaible, but it has been confirmed )
I think that having two different upgrades to choose is a great thing, but being able to freely retrain them to the other one:
1. disables the strategic aspect, because you can easily erase the downsides of your previous choice, so that your choices have nearly no drawbacks().
2. will lead to taking casters in the beginnig, and retraining them to non-casters then (an abuse for me; linear SP increase please ).
If it would cost, then at least it would be limited to some extent, forcing player to be more careful while choosing.
You are free to disagree, but I like choosing being actual choosing, having cost of what you do not choose.
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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Lesij
Famous Hero
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posted June 03, 2007 07:39 PM |
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Why are you so strict???
IMHO, retraining is very good, cuz while playin' that alternatives first time, you can see what they can really do and then retrain useless (in you startegy) units...
Furthermore if hero was turtled and he was going to be attacked, he could retrain units to make his army better prepared...
That makes game even more varied. And without variety it would be boooooring!!!
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted June 03, 2007 08:49 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 20:50, 03 Jun 2007.
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umm, didn't think about that. Defending a Castle is easier if you can re-train upgrades for free. The attacker might find the troops different the next day. And if the change favours more defensive play that makes the game more boring.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 03, 2007 08:58 PM |
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Quote:
I mean that if you can retrain for free, then you cannot make a bad choice (i.e. your choice has no bad consequences), and therefore I think that even retraining from a more expensive upgrade to the cheaper one should cost(and I would rather see retraining being non-avaible, but it has been confirmed )
I think Nival is aware of this, and won't make the retraining free 
Quote:
1. disables the strategic aspect, because you can easily erase the downsides of your previous choice, so that your choices have nearly no drawbacks().
This is strategy, not a paper-scizors-rock game! In a normal strategy, you can always undo the bad choices.. to some extent.
Quote:
2. will lead to taking casters in the beginnig, and retraining them to non-casters then (an abuse for me; linear SP increase please ).
Can't be done because of balance purposes; check how much damage lightning bolt of an elder druid does. If it was linear, it would be TOTALLY ridiculous since it bypasses defense.
Quote:
If it would cost, then at least it would be limited to some extent, forcing player to be more careful while choosing.
You are free to disagree, but I like choosing being actual choosing, having cost of what you do not choose.
But don't you think that it would revive the heroesIV problem, the "better" and the "worse" upgrade? ppl in fear of taking the wrong one would pick the one considered better all the time, every game.. in the state it is now you can use, say, furies for creeping, and retrain to witches which (perhaps) are better in endgame because of their curse immunity.. With retraining not possible, you would stick to the witches (or furies) forever and never use the other upgrade. Bah.
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted June 03, 2007 09:05 PM |
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retraining should cost triple (don't think retraining it's such a good idea)
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dreddy
Hired Hero
HC frosh
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posted June 03, 2007 10:24 PM |
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Edited by dreddy at 22:25, 03 Jun 2007.
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@ alcibiades & lesji Do you guys by any chance recall those wood-harvesting units from WC3, Night Elves? Yeah, they were harvesting wood without harming the trees, kinda *uniting* with them, unlike all other factions. My bet is that Treants will be healed or in some other way constantly buffed by Dryads, so, despite the Anger Treant (BTW, WhoTF thought of that name, lolz) being a more offensive unit unlike the Treant's other upgrade, it would still be a tank due to constant healing from Dryads.
Dunno, may sound retarded, but it might work.
BTW, is it just me, or does Elder Treants + Stand Your Ground sound like a GREAT combo?
@ the new Invisibility special: Someone made a good guess that the creatures having that would only be visible to the enemy when one of their stacks *by a chance* approaches them to some pre-determined distance. Sound quite cool to me. 
@ the retraining: There should be A PENALTY for making bad initial choices about what upgrade path to take! So retraining a lower cost upgrade to a higher cost one should cost more than the mere cost difference. Not 3 times as watcher83 suggested, though - dude, that's just EVIL.
@ the new Succubi's 'seduce' ability: Can it be this way: you may force a certain number (percentage?) of enemy creatures to fight for your cause for some turns. Yeah, mini-Puppet master. Makes sense considering those chicks themselves have the immunity to that spell, no?
Also, check this out (quoted from another post of mine):
Quote:
Imp -> Quasit: Siphon Mana;
Horned Demon -> Horned Leaper: Leap, Enraged;
Hell Hound -> Firebreather: Three-headed Attack, Fire Breath, No Enemy Retaliation;
Succubus -> Succubus Temptress: Shooter, Ranged Retaliate, Immune to Hypnotize (aka Puppet Master), Seduce;
Hell Charger -> Hellmare: Fear, Searing Aura, Large Creature;
Pit Fiend -> Pit Spawn: Axe of Slaughter, Magic-Proof (50%), Large Creature
Devil -> Arch Demon: Flyer (Teleportation), Summon Other, Large Creature.
The abilities in bold seem to fix some magic-resistance problems, and it's nice to see that the already offensive potential of the Hell Hound can be further augmented with Fore Breath. The damage range of Arch Demon is still the same, dammit.
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“... so when the devil wants to dance with you, you’d better say “never”, because the dance with the devil might last you forever.” /Immortal Technique/
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted June 03, 2007 10:28 PM |
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maybe seduce will work as confusion but also on melee units
three times sounds wicked, but it's a good price for creating a last minute advantage in defending a castle after seeing the enemy's line-up
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