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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted August 01, 2004 03:56 AM |
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted August 01, 2004 03:59 AM |
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With respect Consis, his ability to be elected is down to more than just your view of him, he will be elected or otherwise by the whole country.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted August 01, 2004 07:28 AM |
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Two Things
Firstly, Privatehudson makes clear the truth of reality.(which is a good thing)
Secondly, I have a confession to make. I made a thread a while ago, discussing the early democratic nominees. In it, I was toying with the idea of possibly giving my vote to Wesley Clark. Since the time of that thread I have come to support a new philosophy. At the time I was thinking heavily on a safer homefront while being respected by foreign countries. I had been following the details of Kosovo. I was impressed with Clark's performance. I had wondered and thought to myself how much safer I would feel if we had a military general as our president. Clark was the supreme NATO commander just like good old Eisenhower.
Eventually I reasoned that a military-born statesman would ultimately ignore issues we democrats hold so dear. At this time in our nation's history I think we democrats want things like affordable healthcare, non-privatized social security, patriot act reforms(or simply ousting it altogether), environment protection proactiveness, making marriage an issue for the states as opposed to ammending the constitution, bringing jobs back to america, and reforms for CIA/FBI agencies. There are more issues but people get the idea.
My reasoning led me to remember the things that were important to me. I realized that I wanted to be safer but I couldn't sacrifice my liberties and freedoms I had come to love so much.
Peacemaker you are a well-educated, passionate, trusting, loyal, pragmatic, strong-willed, free-spirited, and heartfelt person. I like you. I would support your theories, befriend your friends, and comfort you in all your life's most difficult endeavors. I wanted to say that I am as afraid as the next american about terrorism. I considered electing a military general too. I wanted to feel safer. But I asked myself at what cost would I make this choice? We are indeed a free country because we take care to make the best decisions we possibly can. I know you make good decisions and I am honored to have this debate with you. You are a respectable person whom I admire and adore. Thankyou for listening to me.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted August 01, 2004 08:11 AM |
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My friends all --
It's too late; I'm too tired; just married an old boyfriend off to a beautiful woman and all is happy -- taught the jitterbug to two grown boys who were in bassinets last time I saw them.
Life gets old and stringy on you. Kinda like an overgrown green bean, when you have lived as long as I have. I am only glad you guys will still even think enough like I do for us to keep talking.
All is well but I am leaving town in about three hours with MUCH TO SAY about the last several posts.
Love and Peace until I get back, my friends.
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Khayman
Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
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posted August 01, 2004 09:37 PM |
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Conservative Ramblings or Sound Logic?
Consis wrote:Quote:
Colin Powell is not an elected official and I think there is something to be said about that. He is a soldier through and through with an immense talent in foreign affairs. He is a great asset, loving fellow countryman, and skilled foreign diplomat to this country, but he is not nor will he ever be our elected president.
Consis' passionate take on Colin Powell is a perfect example of what is so discouraging about American politics today. What we are left with is the inability to get behind a potential candidate for fear of what he or she might become once elected. We think we know what the candidates stand for when we are voting for them, but then once elected, you can never be quite sure they will follow through with their promises. Look at Vesuvius' link above on this page to see all the broken promises and false statements that George Bush has allegedly made. All of this has made a mockery out of the election process, and I think that this is what is leading to many skeptical supporters and voters.
People are so skeptical nowadays that I believe they would vote for a candidate they know almost nothing about rather than someone with a recorded history. Case in point, Barack Obama, a junior Senator from Illinois' 13th District, 43 years of age with seven years of service. He gave a very eloquent and moving speech last week at the Democratic National Convention. (I am quite sure you have already heard of him, if not, then Consis provided a nice link for him on Page 9 of this topic.) I believe that the average voter in the United States is so disenfranchised with politicians that if Barack Obama was running against Colin Powell for President of the United States at this very moment, this would be a very close election. Barack Obama gave a single outstanding speech, and from just that short public exposure, you already have people proclaiming him to be the next (or first black) President of the United States. Every time I hear the mention of that, it makes me want to vomit to think that is how disillusioned the American public, and worse yet, the American voter has become. To even consider such a notion at this stage of the game or this stage of Obama's political career is nothing less than absurd, if not completely ludicrous. Yet, you still have people doubting the ability of a proven statesmen like Colin Powell to lead this country. Wake up American people, please. Those who argue that they would never want a military person in charge of the country are the same ones who are heavily criticizing George Bush and his declaration and conduct of the war in Iraq. Check out this logic...Perhaps if you had a military-minded statesman skilled in foreign policy running your country, then maybe he would have recognized a better course of action or even decided that going into Iraq may not have been the best idea at the present time. Even if he heavily weighed his options and decided to invade Iraq, don't you think he would have had a better plan formulated and not have allowed his intelligence officials to paint a false picture for him. The best way to make informed decisions is to possess the necessary knowledge and experience, either by having this knowledge yourself or surrounding yourself with those who have it. However, if you have no knowledge or limited knowledge of something, it is much easier for others to lead you astray or misinform you. I will choose experience and wisdom over youth and passion any day of the week. Unfortunately, there are others who do not subscribe to this logic, and would rather buy off on the next advertised 'best thing'.
Yet, all of this is what I am personally subjected to every time I visit the in-laws or chat with my liberal buddies. Every one is searching for that political savior to give them back their lost faith in politics and politicians. I am not willing to gamble my hard-earned vote for someone who I know next-to-nothing about, which is why I will be following John Kerry's campaign from now until I make my way to the polls to cast my vote. After Kerry's acceptance speech at the Democratic National Convention, I know little more about him than I did before; however, I understand that he is serious, confident, and passionate about his ability to lead our nation. If he does win, I hope he follows through on all of his promises for a 'stronger' America.
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"You must gather your party before venturing forth."
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted August 02, 2004 11:28 PM |
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Edited By: Consis on 2 Aug 2004
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Clapping vs. Voting
Let me say this first:
 Contrary to what Khayman has written preceding this post, the current election is anything but voters gambling away votes. Almost the entire country is split down the middle for votes on both sides of the isle. The recent democratic convention gained almost no 'bounce' at the poles. The truth of the matter is that almost everyone is solidifying their positions. We're dealing with a margin of somewhere between 5% and 10% of undecided voters that will decide who will win this election. On top of that we aren't about to let another 'Florida' happen. This election is being taken very seriously by almost everyone!
Now let me get to the title of my post. Clapping isn't always voting but many times, voting is clapping. During my party's recent convention I watched and listened to many great speeches. I became very enthusiastic and began clapping while sitting in my chair in the middle of my livingroom because some of the speeches I heard were quite inspirational.
The difference that I would like to emphasize is that I while I clapped for speeches given by Barack Obama, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Bill/Hillary Clinton, and others it does not mean that I am simply giving them my vote. It means that I may have agreed with, been inspired by, or laughed at the material, presentation, etc. I do this when I am compelled to do so. I'm sure that when the Republican convention arives, I will have many more moments of clapping in my livingroom.
Now my vote, on the other hand, is influenced by several things. What's in a vote, or more specifically what is in my vote?
1. Realism
Realistically speaking, I need to know what can be done right here and now about the problems we face in our everyday lives. I want a candidate that will act now rather than later especially with jobs, healthcare, and equal opportunity.
2. Experience
Speaking of experience, I want to be reassured that my candidate can confidently perform to the expectations we voters set out for him/her.
3. Vision
I want my candidate to inspire the kind of change that I would like to see in this country.
All in all, my voting criteria could qualify a Republican or Democrat or even a third party.
Personally, I don't know where you come off comparing me to your liberal friends. If you think I'm a liberal then you need to look more closely at who you are talking to. Both you and I are men who feed our babies, clothe them, hug them when they are sad, and change their diapers. We cook, we clean, and we do the dishes! We have both served our country by enlisting in the armed forces, and love playing computer games. My father is a copier technician. I was a boyscout, raised a Mormon, and I married a woman who was raised a strict catholic who became a mainline conservative Protestant. I have three kids, one house, and one car(dark green 98 toyota corolla). My wife rides the local train to save money on gas.
At what point do you see a liberal? The fact that I would vote for Hillary Clinton? I will continue to hold my sorts of conservative views while placing them second to what I think this country needs in the ways of change. I believe she would attract more Allan Greenspans and other such sensible conservatives to work for her. And that's only the economy. It isn't mentioning her ideas for healthcare. If you like, I can share that with you as well.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted August 04, 2004 03:46 AM |
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Hey guys (+Peacemaker), good thing to see you going with such fervor about this election thing. You may think that I dont have the right to discuss American internal politics (and honestly, I dont care; will do it anyway  ), but from an outsider's point of view, I've got few questions and comments, especially for those of you who support Powell.
I happen to agree that Powells expertise in warcraft (not the game ) and diplomacy is an advantage in the current delicate situation that the US is involved. You got my support here, Peacemaker. But what makes you think that the same Powell who we saw serving under Bush for the past 4 years, will redirect the American policy from its current course significantly? Shouldn't we judge a man according to his actions? What actions/accomplishments can be contributed to Powell that make you put your full confidence in his hands? Is it solely his skill and knowledge about that area? Then how about all those proficient generals and diplomats in history that lead "aggressive" policies?
What I'm saying is: how can you be sure about the kind of policies he'd pursue, given the fact that the only policy that he's been in favor of so far is that of his "boss"?
True, he did make efforts to soften the warmongering attitude of Bush administration, but that doesnt erase the fact that he worked for the same goal, only with a more tactful approach.
Otherwise, I happen to also agree with the practical approach you support about holding his base in order to exert some influence on the situation, but unfortunately I do not share enthusiasm about the man's sacrificial intentions. Even so; let's imagine the man's a martyr that wants only the best for his country. But then again, that same leverage which has provided Powell with the power to influence in one way or another will be there to influence on him, when he gets to that position. Or do you happen to think that the Presidency is a one man job only and its entire power is wrested into a pair of hands? No, comrades, it's a nasty web of financial and political interests that shape your country's policy. You cannot abstract Powell from his Republican background. And I admire your efforts to depict him as Bush's faithful Jeminni Cricket that always acts the consciense part, but I think our Pinnochio's nose is a bit too long by now, and must conclude that Jeminni did his job really bad.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Khayman
Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
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posted August 04, 2004 04:29 AM |
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The Commanders by Bob Woodward
Quote:
You may think that I dont have the right to discuss American internal politics (and honestly, I dont care; will do it anyway ), but from an outsider's point of view, I've got few questions and comments, especially for those of you who support Powell.
The decisions made by the President of the United States, along with his advisors, affect not only our country, but the rest of the world. I, for one, welcome your insightful thoughts, opinions, and criticisms of our government (even if honestly, I don't care either). 
I am right about to head off to bed, so I really do not have the time right now to give a thought-laden response. However, I wanted to recommend an outstanding book that I am re-reading entitled The Commanders by journalist Bob Woodward. It is an incredible book that gives you an up-close-and-personal perspective into the White House, the Pentagon, American Politics, and all the planning and decision making that is involved in the United States going to war. This particular book covers the period leading up to the first Persian Gulf War (Operations Desert Storm/Desert Shield). If you do read this book, you will undoubtledly find so many similarities between the processes and factors leading up to Gulf War I (1990) and the present conflict in Iraq (2003). There are so many familiar names, it is almost freaky (Powell, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Ashcroft, etc.) I had to read it for a book review that I did while I was a young platoon commander in the military (yes, Marines actually do read books), so I really did not appreciate its full value, because there was not a lot of warfighting covered. Now, however, I have much more of an appreciation for the book, as I am just starting to understand the whole political arena and decision-making process. It is quite fascinating, and I would love for you all to pick-up a copy.
Anyway, I am off to bed. Glad to see you made it back safely, Svarog. Rumor has it that you had a 'personal' National Security 'escort team' ensure your departure from our country. 
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"You must gather your party before venturing forth."
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted August 04, 2004 07:48 AM |
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Pfeh,
This message is for Jonathan Livingston Seagull:
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Khayman
Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
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posted August 04, 2004 02:34 PM |
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Richard Bach
Consis wrote:Quote:
This message is for Jonathan Livingston Seagull:
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Consis, I know I haven't been following the Other Side of the Monitor as much lately, but I think I am missing something here.
Anyway, to be slightly off topic for a brief moment, I have to tell you this, as it is one of those coincidental things that make you go hmm...
A friend of mine gave me Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach several years ago, and I admit I enjoyed the book. So, of course, I had to go an buy Johnathan Livingston Seagull, the author's preceding book in the 'tales', so to speak. The books were inspirational, IMHO, and encouraged you to be yourself, think freely, etc. Here's the coincidence:
While serving as a military platoon commander, I always encouraged my guys to read more, whether it was books, magazines, newspapers, whatever. In order to help motivate them, I had a platoon policy. They could come into my office, take a look at my small collection of books I had there, and pick one to take home & read. After reading the book, if they wrote me a full page book review (or report), then I would give them some time off in return. Sounds like a pretty good deal, right? Well, out of a platoon of 50 Marines, I had only two, yes that was 2, take me up on this offer. The funny thing is that out of all twenty or so books on my shelf (to included Bob Woodward'sThe Commanders), they both picked Johnathan Livingston Seagull, most likely because it was the shortest one.
Anyway, I was so disappointed that only two of them took me up on my generous offer, that I let those two Marines leave work one Friday morning as soon as they showed up in the morning to have an extended weekend. I did this to encourage others to take me up on my offer, but even after this reward, none of them ever took me up on the offer. Kinda depressing, but hey, maybe I am the strange one. Anyway...
Back On-Topic
I just registered to vote yesterday, and to all of your dismay, andger, and loathing, I registered Republican. I hope all of you United States citizens have registered as well, because if you haven't, your windows of opportunity to voice your opinion and exercise your right to vote will not be open forever. Besides, here is your chance to get rid of the evil George W. Bush. I'd hate to have to hear four more years of whining and complaining from all of you liberals and Democrats, especially if you did not even take the time to cast a vote.
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"You must gather your party before venturing forth."
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted August 04, 2004 07:45 PM |
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Peacemaker,
I am curious. Several posts back, you said:
Quote:
Wow, you're kind-of all over the map there buddy!
If you think I am 'all over the map' then who in your opinion is not 'all over the map'. And you can't use yourself as an example. Please give your reasons why they aren't 'all over the map' as it were.
I'm simply trying to understand your thought process a bit more.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted August 04, 2004 10:57 PM |
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Edited By: Consis on 4 Aug 2004
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'Battleground' State Commercials
Here in Oregon, Kerry must be paying quite a bit of money to air his acceptance speech. Actually he isn't airing the speech, only fragmented pieces of it.
In the commercial(which I must've already seen ten times) he says that he defended the country as a young man and will defend it as president. As a registered democrat this bothers me because I know that Vietnam was not a war in which we fought to defend our country. Kerry seems to think that it was. Personally, I am ashamed of Vietnam and the manner in which we conducted ourselves both there and at home.
I truly wish Kerry would focus more on his voting record in the Senate. I know from experience that a vote is not a simple thing to decide upon. If he would have gone through the details of his voting record and why, then I think I could respect him a great deal more. I feel being a U.S. senator is a highly prestigious role in helping shape our country. I think it's great that he wants to lead the country to be safer but I would really prefer he didn't so easily ignore his 20+ years in the senate. Life is complex and so is a person's vote. Why the hell won't he talk about all that time he spent in the senate? I am so ashamed because I feel his campaign is based on three months in a war that I strongly disagree with.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted August 05, 2004 04:26 AM |
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Because that's what the simple masses want to hear about, Consis.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted August 05, 2004 09:57 PM |
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WWFS (What Would Freud Say)
“They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.”
-- George W. Bush
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5613296/
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Drive by posting.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted August 05, 2004 11:09 PM |
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Edited By: Consis on 5 Aug 2004
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I Didn't Think One So Educated Would Stoop So Low
bort that's a rediculous way to argue against him being president. You know well that even some of the best speakers in world make mistakes in their speeches. If you're going to post quotes like that then you must also post quotes like this:
"We will double our special forces to conduct terrorist operations.....anti-terrorist operations."
~John Kerry(in his democratic nominee acceptance speech)
I understand if you are opposed to him running for re-election but do you want to put yourself on the same level as Michael Moore? It's your choice.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted August 12, 2004 10:02 PM |
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Quote:
I am curious. Several posts back, you said:
Quote:
Wow, you're kind-of all over the map there buddy!
If you think I am 'all over the map' then who in your opinion is not 'all over the map'. And you can't use yourself as an example. Please give your reasons why they aren't 'all over the map' as it were.
I'm simply trying to understand your thought process a bit more.
LOL!!! So, so sorry I have been gone so long, Consis and others. To make an incredibly long and detailed story short, We had a sight-threatening emergency while out of town, my husband had eye surgery, then I had to drive us back to Denver from Biloxi Mississippi because he could not get on a plane due to cabin pressure. When we finally got home our computer was not allowing internet access, and I have been caring for my husband. So sorry for the prolonged absence! I have no idea how long my temporary internet access is going to work, so if this is my only post for a while then you'll know we're still working on technical difficulties at this end.
First, Consis: let me say that I would be yet another example of a person who IS "all over the map," so either I insulted us both, or I complimented you, or my observation was not intended as judgemental at all, but rather a mere denotational observation.
Second: I want you to know I had not carefully read your heartfelt post before I posted my sign-out post around the 31st. Having now read it my post must have appeared incredibly nonresponsive. I thank you belatedly, my friend.
Third, Svarog, on this thing with how trustworthy Powell is. I think you have some very good points. But my only response is that I have a pretty highly developed sense of the political personality in this country, and Powell exhibits none of the traits I have come to associate with the typical American personality.
I think it is important to differentiate between an individual's military arts skills and his statesmanship/ability to deal with other countries and their leaders. What I have witnessed on Powell's part places him in the top five statesmen I have ever read about, witnessed or have any other knowledge about in the history of the American international political scheme.
My instincts (based on my observations) tell me very strongly that Powell's abilities possess virtually every trait necessary for the current demands of the American president, because the current demands place a premium on intenational relations like they never have but should have before. So, as Khayman pointed out, since the next American presidency, moreso than perhaps at any other stage in history, may effect the rest of the world, I believe strongly we must choose the one who best understands and can negotiate the ropes of that world without trampling all over everyone else in the process. Things that make a good stateman are being more knowledgeable and respectful about foreign countries, their cultures, their values. We need an individual who is a natural leader, most intelligent, experienced and educated in international affairs, is neither ego-motived nor corporate-invested, and has the ability to exercise the power of the most powerful office of the world with immense wisdom.
There is no doubt in my mind that Powell is the man with those skills. There is also not doubt in my mind that Kerry and Bush both fall sadly short in most or all these ways.
As to your suspicions about Powell being just another Republican, well, I can't answer that question any better than I have here. Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld and the rest simply are not in the same league with him, for all the reasons I have stated repeatedly. They are all contaminated with the government-corporate cronyism and neo-conservtive fanaticism which I perceive is afflicting this administration. Powell has no such ties, interests, afflictions or involvements.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted August 13, 2004 05:52 AM |
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I'm sorry Peacemaker, but I dont feel you answered my questions (and they were deliberately composed in the form of questions). I think you just reestablished your position of the saint-like status of Powell and your wishful trust in his personality, without any factual information to back that up. I know alsmost nothing about the man, thats why we foreigners, would find useful to see some of his political accomplishments, other than making fool out of himself in front of the UN.
As far as I'm concerned, he might be just another Republican who knows how to cover his a$$ for the filthy connections he might have had (still has), that helped him get to the postition where he is now.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted August 13, 2004 07:56 AM |
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Edited By: Consis on 14 Aug 2004
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Svarog,
I agree with your summary of Peacemaker's response. Furthermore, if Powell knew how to cover his rear then he would be a serious threat to modern politics. Fortunately, this is a man known for doing nothing of the sort politically speaking.
I simply cannot stress the fear I have for electing a military general to become president at this point in my country's history.
Many people criticize me for making such a large generalization about people in that way. But seriously, one does not simply devote their entire life to learning the secrets of war and then leave it behind for a life in politics.
Peacemaker,
If you will please notice my job descriptions for Powell's resume'. You will find my defining the job of a four star general as "unknown". For 25 years much of what he did as a soldier and commander are probably classified beyond any of our access.
Ask yourself how much you really know about this man. You cannot hope to gain the full picture without knowing his full military record. And I'm sorry to say, the public may not ever be afforded such information. Are you willing to risk your vote for a possible James T. Kirk?
He may indeed strike fear into the cold black hearts of our enemies. But who can define our enemy today? Are they simply called "terrorists"? Are they called Al Qaeda? Are they Iraqi insurgents? Who exactly is our enemy?
The reason I ask is because we cannot be certain who we are fighting against. Only through patience, perserverence, and steadfast courage can we hope to win such a modern war. It simply isn't conventional. We all know this by now.
If we elect Powell then who will we invade? Who will we decimate, destroy, grasp victory from? I say no my friend. Even as a registered democrat I must recognize openly that Bush has kept us safe from the new enemy. This is not to say he did it in the right way but can Kerry do a better job? Could Powell? I just don't know. I shall stand by my fellow countrymen for the time being as we search for answers together. I have so many questions as do so many people.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted August 13, 2004 03:49 PM |
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Look, all evidence suggests that Colin Powell is a very good and effective soldier and general, he's probably also a very likable guy and wicked smart, but the only evidence we have from him in a political, governmental role should not inspire confidence.
-- He played a large role in presenting and exageratting false evidence for a war. Whether or not there were other reasons for the war is a moot point. If there were other reasons, they should not have stressed the false ones.
-- He is the nation's top diplomat. His job is to ensure good relationships with our allies and keep our standing in the international community high. Has he done his job? The US hasn't been this isolated and hated in a long time. I'd say he hasn't done his job.
It's nice that you're so willing to assume that everything would have been worse were he not around, but I am much less willing to forgive him for his role in the actions of the Bush administration.
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Drive by posting.
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Khayman
Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
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posted August 13, 2004 04:59 PM |
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Thoughts To Ponder
Consis wrote:Quote:
Ask yourself how much you really know about this man. You cannot hope to gain the full picture without knowing his full military record. And I'm sorry to say, the public may not ever be afforded such information. Are you willing to risk your vote for a possible James T. Kirk?
Consis, are you referring to Colin Powell or John Kerry here?
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This thread is pages long: 
