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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Strongest Town & Weakest Town in HOMM3
Thread: Strongest Town & Weakest Town in HOMM3 This thread is 34 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 20 ... 30 31 32 33 34 · «PREV / NEXT»
NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted August 11, 2018 10:59 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 23:07, 11 Aug 2018.

Quote:

I doubtful Dungeon is good town. Statistically this town possesses one of the least damage output per week. And produces one of the least hitpoints per week. Underground is also not so rich as surface.


1- Dungeon doesn't start in underground unless it's a custom map. Starting locations are all the same for random maps or choose-a-town map.

2- Damage output, HP... meaningless stats. Try looking at attack, defense, and specials. Attack, defense and specials have much more influence on a combat than "HP". A black dragon only has the HP of 30 centaur captains, yet can defeat over 100 due to attack and defense difference. The same is true for every creature.

As I said dungeon has three ranged creatures, all without melee penalty, and good specials in both creatures, town and heroes.

Medusa petrifies and Manticore paralyzes enemy creatures, both of which last considerably, also giving you a net advantage in combat turns.

In other words you are looking at all the wrong spots. Tell me, does not Necropolis produce very few "hitpoints" per week? Does this mean necropolis is weak?

If you play with or against Dungeon you will realize those particular numbers are close to meaningless in a game with so much complexity besides "hitpoints vs damage". Plus I'm sure that doesn't even include the Summoning Portal.
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted August 11, 2018 11:06 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 23:08, 11 Aug 2018.

No, but Harpies are ranged de facto.

PS: Damn, someone deleted.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 11, 2018 11:07 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 23:08, 11 Aug 2018.

NimoStar said:
As I said dungeon has three ranged creatures




PS: sorry, got a smaller image, the first stretched too much
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted August 11, 2018 11:09 PM


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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 11, 2018 11:10 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 23:13, 11 Aug 2018.

Well, in wog we have that ability on tons of creatures and none ever called it "ranged".

Ranged implies also being affected by specific spells, depending on ammo cart, depending on hero archery skill, artifacts etc
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted August 11, 2018 11:15 PM

I had already expressed in the previous page that I considered Harpies to be ranged in practice since they attack creatures at a distance without "Moving" from their own hex, and do not allow retaliation, just like an archer.

Sure, there are mechanical differences but at the end of the day the harpy is closer to a ranged function than a melee function.

It attacks from a distance without getting attacked is the important part, the name doesn't matter.
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Otuken
Otuken


Known Hero
posted August 12, 2018 12:11 AM
Edited by Otuken at 00:16, 12 Aug 2018.

Inferno needs still buffing. Archdevil, Pit Lord and Imps are still overpriced. Probably there are tons of other unoffical patchs that I have never heard of. I am willing to decrease the cost of them but I am fear of to make Inferno the strongest town.

Also Necropolis is good candidate of being one of the weakest town in hota after halving of necromancy ability.
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 12, 2018 12:23 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 00:27, 12 Aug 2018.

Inferno is good in HotA.
Magogs shoots fireballs without damaging themselves, Arch Devils gives -2 to enemy Luck. (and yes you can have negative Luck in HotA.) Efreet Sultans and Arch Devils are very fast and Cerberi and Arch Devils allow no retaliation.
Town is also very easy to build, except for some gold.

Necropolis feels pretty average to me in HotA. The Necromancy nerf was neccesary though.

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Ben80
Ben80


Adventuring Hero
posted August 12, 2018 07:22 AM

phoenix4ever said:
Inferno is good in HotA.
Magogs shoots fireballs without damaging themselves, Arch Devils gives -2 to enemy Luck. (and yes you can have negative Luck in HotA.) Efreet Sultans and Arch Devils are very fast and Cerberi and Arch Devils allow no retaliation.
Town is also very easy to build, except for some gold.

Necropolis feels pretty average to me in HotA. The Necromancy nerf was neccesary though.


HotA as always is not able to understand true author idea in Heroes 3. Actually Inferno is not weak in original Heroes 3. In the hands of a strong player Magogs are able to make double damage against AI very frequently without damaging allied units. It is very interesting to play so. Sometimes Magogs still damage allied units (and sometimes it can be even useful for demons farming) - and it fits very good into Inferno fashion and style.

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Ben80
Ben80


Adventuring Hero
posted August 12, 2018 07:48 AM
Edited by Ben80 at 07:52, 12 Aug 2018.

So, Magogs are strong and very useful 2nd level unit.

Overall, Inferno have one of the best 2 and 3 level units, many 4 level units (due to demon farming), good units of 5, 6, 7 level (non-upgraded Devil is best among non-upgraded 7 level units). Familiars have high speed and are very useful and handy as ones (as well as Hobgoblins).
Besides, Inferno have very interesting Gates and all 5 levels of Magic Guild. And besides, it is quite easy to make building for 6 level units at first week - it is easier only for Fortress.

So, again, one can wonder how well thought out balance in original Heroes 3, game which was made 20 age ago...

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 12, 2018 08:44 AM

Well Necropolis and Conflux for sure were OP in original game. And Fortress was probably the worst, because of Armorer/Air Shield bug.
Luckily that changed in HotA, but then came Cove, which beats the crap out of everything.

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Ben80
Ben80


Adventuring Hero
posted August 12, 2018 11:05 AM

phoenix4ever said:
Well Necropolis and Conflux for sure were OP in original game. And Fortress was probably the worst, because of Armorer/Air Shield bug.
Luckily that changed in HotA, but then came Cove, which beats the crap out of everything.


Luckily, remaining bug fixes like Armorer bug will be fixed in next HD mod releases, as far as I know, or can be downloaded already now as separate plugin http://handbookhmm.ru/forum/download/file.php?id=1404
HotA, unluckily, have changed many things which are not bugs actually (again, because of they are not able to understand spirit of original game).
Strengthness and weakness of all fraction depends on specific map or template. Generally, all fraction are equally strong in original game, excepting very strong Conflux, and, sometimes, Necropolis. However, it is even more interesting that such OP fractions exists. HotA have castrated Conflux and Necropolis, breaking wonderful spirit of original game. Luckily, I'm not playing in HotA.

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revolut1oN
revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted August 12, 2018 02:12 PM

Nobody forces you.

And yes, Conflux and Necro were broken op in original game, now they are only very strong.

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AnkVaati
AnkVaati


Famous Hero
Nighonese National Front
posted August 12, 2018 03:11 PM
Edited by AnkVaati at 15:11, 12 Aug 2018.

phoenix4ever said:
Well Necropolis and Conflux for sure were OP in original game. And Fortress was probably the worst, because of Armorer/Air Shield bug.
Luckily that changed in HotA, but then came Cove, which beats the crap out of everything.
Conflux is still quite 'OP'. While I do enjoy its general 'theme', having such access to (in particular) Earth magic for all of your heroes feels pretty 'broken'. Getting cash still ain't a problem due ballista, by far the most useful war machine in the early game.

Fortress? Snow no. Heard of wyverns? Perfect for poor maps and rushes. I'd say Inferno is arguably the worst. If that teleporter would work for all towns and not just Inferno ones... then, maybe not.

Pretty much this:

(0. Cove)
1. Necro
2. Flux
3. Castle
4. Dungeon
5. Fortress
6. Stronghold
7. Tower
8. Rampart
9. Inferno

As for personal favs, the list goes more like this:

1. Dungeon
2. Tower, Fortress, Conflux
3. Rampart, (Cove)
4. Stronghold
5. Inferno, Castle, Necropolis
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Otuken
Otuken


Known Hero
posted August 13, 2018 06:57 PM

HOtA has totally wrecked the balance of SoD in some aspects. I have no idea why did they increase the cost of Phoenixies and Magic elementals? Conflux's power was really rely on cheap Phoenixies because their heroes are also bad. Elementals are already sucks and expensive. Conflux is horrible town anymore. It was my one of the favourite town. They did  significantly improved some things but they really messed up Conflux.

Inferno remains the weakest town in the game by far. Bad heroes, low hp, low production, very expensive Archdevils and Pit Lords.




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Ajomajoful
Ajomajoful

Tavern Dweller
posted September 14, 2018 12:57 PM
Edited by Ajomajoful at 13:00, 14 Sep 2018.

Otuken said:
HOtA has totally wrecked the balance of SoD in some aspects. I have no idea why did they increase the cost of Phoenixies and Magic elementals? Conflux's power was really rely on cheap Phoenixies because their heroes are also bad. Elementals are already sucks and expensive. Conflux is horrible town anymore. It was my one of the favourite town. They did  significantly improved some things but they really messed up Conflux.

Inferno remains the weakest town in the game by far. Bad heroes, low hp, low production, very expensive Archdevils and Pit Lords.




Exactly:  "in some aspects"  
but it fixed much more.

Before people complained that conflux is too cheap looking at power/price, but now they made it equal to other towns, and right now it's most expensive one.
Still, with all effects that creatures possess it's very powerful, they also counted that it has artifact merchant so you couldn't afford all artitacts and should keep some gold for army in early game, also university which guarantees you perfect mage on your own style and not play by luck. Also heroes are good, not sure what kind will be good for you if you tell they are bad ones.

Same as any other town if you play good and not rely only on numbers to win, it is balanced.

Same goes with inferno, before I liked because of 3 fast creatures (devil, efreet, cerberus) but hated becasue of magogs, now HotA fixed that.

I advice to play more on random choice 200% 1vs5-6 to figure the strenghts of the towns.
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Otuken
Otuken


Known Hero
posted September 14, 2018 04:03 PM

Ajomajoful said:
Otuken said:
HOtA has totally wrecked the balance of SoD in some aspects. I have no idea why did they increase the cost of Phoenixies and Magic elementals? Conflux's power was really rely on cheap Phoenixies because their heroes are also bad. Elementals are already sucks and expensive. Conflux is horrible town anymore. It was my one of the favourite town. They did  significantly improved some things but they really messed up Conflux.

Inferno remains the weakest town in the game by far. Bad heroes, low hp, low production, very expensive Archdevils and Pit Lords.




Exactly:  "in some aspects"  
but it fixed much more.

Before people complained that conflux is too cheap looking at power/price, but now they made it equal to other towns, and right now it's most expensive one.
Still, with all effects that creatures possess it's very powerful, they also counted that it has artifact merchant so you couldn't afford all artitacts and should keep some gold for army in early game, also university which guarantees you perfect mage on your own style and not play by luck. Also heroes are good, not sure what kind will be good for you if you tell they are bad ones.

Same as any other town if you play good and not rely only on numbers to win, it is balanced.

Same goes with inferno, before I liked because of 3 fast creatures (devil, efreet, cerberus) but hated becasue of magogs, now HotA fixed that.

I advice to play more on random choice 200% 1vs5-6 to figure the strenghts of the towns.


Only Phoenixies and Magic Elementals were cheap in SoD. Elementals are bad they are just not as strong as their counterparts. Air and Water elementals require upgrade for to become shooter but they also gain melee penalty.

Inferno also still weak due to overpriced creautres. I have no idea why imp's cost 50 gold when master gremlin's, goblin's cost are 40 gold. The weakest first level unit was not be supposed to be more expensive than Maser gremlin which is the best first level unit.

Pit lords are expensive. They are %40 more expensive than Pit Fiends. They gain nice ability but they are too overpriced.

I agree Efreet and Cerberus are good creatures but devils are horribly weak and overpriced. Archdevils require 22.5 gold per HP while Archangels 20,Titans 16.6 Black Dragon 13.3 Behemoths 10. They are the least cost effective creatures plus they deal very little damage and they are not even the fastest creature. Yes they have no enemy retaliation  but isn't it overrated ability since you can already soak enemy retaliaion by attacking enemy creature with a cannon fodder. How long would devils be able to last in sieges or frontal battles against to Archangels, Titans, Dragons or Behemoths?I
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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 14, 2018 04:34 PM

I'm not pro at this game, but... I'm still giving my opinion just because

So, leaving aside the obvious cheat that is necromancy and which turns Necropolis into the strongest H3 town, I think all towns in this game are somehow balanced, and their strength / weakness is relative to the various scenarios they're involved in.

Still, if we're only judging by pure army strength then...

1) un-upgraded... the strongest towns are castle and inferno, while the weakest is tower;

2) upgraded... strongest town is castle, while inferno is the weakest;

Again, I'm not pro at this game, so I could be wrong, but that's the way I see it

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted September 14, 2018 04:41 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 16:45, 14 Sep 2018.

Ajomajoful said:
Also heroes are good, not sure what kind will be good for you if you tell they are bad ones.

No they aren't. Ok, all Conflux magic heroes start with magic schools instead of useless secondary skills like Learning, Eagle Eye and Mysticism but that's it.
Luna and Ciele can be useful early game but they lose that plus soon, all might heroes are specialized in creatures and yet they miss levels 1 and 2 where specialty really means something, plus they all give flat bonus so to have them at high levels does nothing for specialty.
Their heroes are all average, none of them sucks like Astral or Torosar but there is no Intelligence, Offense or Logistics specialist among them.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 14, 2018 05:43 PM

Otuken said:
How long would devils be able to last in sieges or frontal battles against to Archangels, Titans, Dragons or Behemoths?I


Thats the problem with your analyses, you suppose frontal battle or comparing prices is the way. Each faction has its strategies, you don't go with devils or ghost dragons at frontal battles, instead you use spells, blocks, baits and so on. With the right spell, 1 archdevil can kill 1000 archangels without a scratch. And even without any spell, it can kill thousands of slow creatures, you just can't do that with another 7 tier.

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