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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted May 13, 2009 06:42 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 18:43, 13 May 2009.
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You seem to understand the issue then. Then how can you still think it's ok ?
So you are perfectly ok with also forbidding this for the people who DO know how to discuss a topic. It's a small sacrifice? That's just unfair.
It's like saying we should abolish Islam because we have jihadists or abolish Christianity because we have the KKK. It's ridicolous. How can it be ok to forbid something for people who haven't done anything wrong?
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted May 13, 2009 06:42 PM |
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Remember Azagal, I'm no longer a moderator in the OSM. It is just my opinion that we can do without it.
The reason I say to just get rid of it is that I've been here for a long time, I've seen this so often that I just can't help but find it pointless.
No, I'm not saying that no one here is able to handle the topic - but I am saying that there are enough people that are unable that they can make a real mess of things.
Perhaps saying ban the topic was too hasty - I don't know... I don't see it as having any real value here anymore. We have so many people that don't understand that incessant repetition is not the same as actual discussion.
Yes, its true that there are many topics that derail threads...I think there needs to be a much stronger stance against that.
But if now we're hearing no penalties, no threat of disallowing the topics if they cannot be handled maturity... then what? Locking threads is probably a no-no too? Then there is nothing else but to remain in this loop of having the same arguments again and again - or to leave.
I think I just remember why I left 
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted May 13, 2009 06:54 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 18:55, 13 May 2009.
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@Pan
...Good for you?
1st
Quote:
No, I'm not saying that no one here is able to handle the topic
I never said you said that. I said forbidding something equals that statement. Big difference.
2nd
Quote:
But if now we're hearing no penalties, no threat of disallowing the topics if they cannot be handled maturity... then what? Locking threads is probably a no-no too? Then there is nothing else but to remain in this loop of having the same arguments again and again - or to leave.
Whoever told you not to give penalties? What? Why are we back at discussing the hardships of modhood? You mean to say that either the mods suffers or we ban a topic completely (I really don't understand, I'm not being ironic or something)? If you have to give penalties you give a penalty. Of course there'll be arguments about it, what do you exspect? That everybody just sits there and takes everything? If you're mod you've got to deal with that, no?
All the "consequences" you list are perfectly valid mod meassures against "intolerable" behaviour.
But why is it so difficult that forbbiding a topic is pure incompetence or lazyness? It IS nothing but that aslong as we have people who can discuss topics in a civilized manner and we have enough of those (it's just that they're not in the OSM too often, or if they are they kinda drown).
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 13, 2009 07:03 PM |
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You could say that those people stay the heck out of here exactly because of those discussions  Want a bet that the osm would become a better place and attract some of those people if these discussions are gone? Just saying.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted May 13, 2009 07:09 PM |
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Quote:
You could say that those people stay the heck out of here exactly because of those discussions
That was what I was saying.
And no the OSM would certainly not become a better place it'd become a truely horrible place if topics were to be forbidden. Again it's not about the topics oO. The people would return to the OSM if the way topics have been discussed would return to a more controled and civilized manner. But you don't get that by abolishing a topic, why is that so hard to understand :'(?
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted May 13, 2009 07:13 PM |
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Uh you're doing it again Azagal...
I'm not a moderator in the OSM. I'm not talking about the hardships of modship at all.
Mytical mentioned not giving penalties, and not stopping topics. Its his call not mine.
Quote:
But why is it so difficult that forbbiding a topic is pure incompetence or lazyness?
You've called me lazy before but incompetent is new
The reason I've said this is not because I feel that the current moderators need for someone to make their job easier, or because they are lazy etc...
The topic itself calls out the crazy - there are certain people that go nuts when they catch even a hint of a way to make a topic about their beliefs. This is what I think should end.
Maybe you think that I'm speaking only for moderators but I'm not. I'm also speaking for all of the posters that have gotten so fed up with reading the same thing over and over that they've left.
A lot of the members that used to post here frequently, the ones that could handle any topic and keep it interesting - left because it became a waste of their time to even try to have a discussion with some of the people here. And as much as anyone might argue that the good outnumber the bad, unfortunately the bad are the loudest.
So to clarify for you so you can relax a bit...
I posted my opinion. Just mine - not HQ, just little old me (the devil in Prada)
I didn't recommend action - I just said what I thought.
There are plenty of members in the OSM that I respect and enjoy reading, I have never said once that all posters here are unable to discuss any topic. However I did say that there is a real lack of maturity shown here by some members. (some, not all - see? Its in bold even)
Quote:
I said forbidding something equals that statement
It doesn't though. That may be your interpretation, but its not what I said, nor is it what I meant.
As Elvin said, maybe some of the people who quit posting in the OSM might start being active here again, if they feel that they don't have to deal with this stuff anymore. To me, that would be a good thing...
But whatever - to state again so there's no confusion - i am not a moderator in the OSM - I'm just posting as a member, please don't rage against the machine because of anything I've said.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted May 13, 2009 07:18 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 19:23, 13 May 2009.
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Either I'm inable of expressing myself or you're not really getting the points I'm making... considering the time overhere I'm not sure what to pick.
Ugh... I'll try to explain tomorrow (that is later today lol). Not that I have hopes for being succesfuly understood but yeah I remember it too now...
Maybe in your own words:
Quote:
So to clarify for you so you can relax a bit...
I posted my opinion. Just mine -
I just said what I thought.
I'm not replying because YOU said anything I'm replying to the issue of forbidding something.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted May 13, 2009 07:31 PM |
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But its not an issue, it was just my opinion.
That's what I'm trying to clarify for you so that you stop being so angry over something that's really nothing.
I've not suggested it in HQ, I've not spoken to any of the Moderators here about doing it - I was just saying what I felt about it.
It gets frustrating to not be able to speak an opinion without someone wanting to turn it into a fight. When opinions on religion are posted, it will almost certainly become a fight.
We have many reactionary posters here, they read something they don't like and they hit the post reply button and start firing before considering what they're saying. A lot of the time they don't even take the time to read the rest of the post, they hit that reply button the second they see something that they don't like.
I just don't feel that this style of posting is helpful to any topic, and it seems to occur whenever religion is brought up.
And again, I'm not saying everybody - but there are enough that I feel its distracting and harmful to the forum.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted May 13, 2009 08:22 PM |
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Banning topics? On my HC?
Nah.
We can as well abolish the entire OSM and get it over with IMO.
It does seem somehow... redundant.
If someone wants to make an interesting topic, he can do it in the Tavern; it's not forbidden to post real life stuff over there. If someone wants to lead quote wars over religion or politics, tough luck, find another forum or use one of the two threads designated for that (the God thread and a Politics thread that we can make just to keep them satisfied. They'd be sticky, in the VW or something).
You want to take a direct shot at the problem - strike at its heart, not at one of its thousand of tentacles.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 13, 2009 08:25 PM |
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You are right, I will track down the evil men and deal with them one by one. I will bring silent death with a single unseen bowshot in true guerilla style 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted May 13, 2009 08:54 PM |
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I thought about it a while, and I think banning topics is not the right way in my opinion, because I am sure those issues will then just be brought up in a different thread by just slightly changing the topic. And the work for the Mods will become even be more difficult.
What I don't understand is, I really thought I have explained the reasons for the moderation I have chosen on that issue. I really stated clearly what will happen next when things like that(especially referring to Elodin here) will happen again in the future.
JJ may be right when he says this action could have taken place ONE step earlier, I may give him this point. But it did not happen earlier, so just accept it. If I wouldn't have reacted at all, I would understand your whole lyric posting here. But what you do right now is called "riding a dead horse".
Wolfsburg understood my action pretty well, thank you for that.
And I think you (JJ) should go the same way. Be angry coz of LATE moderation, but not coz of the moderation in general. Better late then never
And I will have a very close look in the nearer future on any topic in the OSM, that's for sure.
I may clear up one point though:
- "Bashing" religion as a whole is different from personal insulting a individual believer .
So only coz someone writes things like "Religion is the reason why many wars took place" (personal opinion about a non-individual issue) I won't allow replies like "People like YOU are the reason why.....".
I hope both sides have understood what I meant and try again to discuss such difficult topics in a manner we all can live with.
And now this issue should be enough discussed. No more points to make clear, everybody has expressed his/her opinion and now we should leave it be.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted May 13, 2009 09:18 PM |
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Quote:
So only coz someone writes things like "Religion is the reason why many wars took place" (personal opinion about a non-individual issue) I won't allow replies like "People like YOU are the reason why.....".
That's a huge part of the problem.
Someone's beliefs and someone's personality often intertwine massively, and the boundary sometimes just... fades away.
If an issue isn't individual, but affects a larger mass of people, then it's often even worse to insult it. Because, to the individual, it has the same effect as a personal insult; but aside from that, it also affects all other people who believe in that.
And if someone attacks my beliefs, I have a problem with THAT person, not all of his kind. If I believe in A and a person that believes in B tells me that A sucks, I have a problem with that person, and not with everyone who believes in B.
The rules themselves often inflate, if not cause, these issues. People are allowed to go far, but are prevented from going further - and, by inertia, if you allow heated discussions to gain momentum, they just go further and further and it's tough even for the mods to stop them.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted May 13, 2009 09:20 PM |
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Hmmm...Fascinating...
Quote:
It appears you are one of the deniens who shares the anti-Christian bigotted hateful haughty views of atheists such as Richard Dawkins...
Pardon me for dropping out of the sky here. But I find this whole thing fascinating despite I haven't sorted out yet quite how it all began.
Let's take analyse the above statement logically.
Quote:
It appears you are one of the deniens who shares the anti-Christian bigotted hateful haughty views of atheists such as Richard Dawkins...
...therefore...
"Deniens" (whatever those are) = anti-Christian
"Deniens" = bigoted
"Deniens" = hateful
"Deniens" = haughty
All the above = views of athiests
Therefore,
athiests = anti-Christian
athiests = bigoted
athiests = hateful
athiests = haughty
"you" (whoever the post was addressing) = one of the "Deniens"
Therefore,
"you" = anti-Christian
"you" = bigoted
"you" = hateful
"you" = haughty
There is a very fine line between opinions and insults. Sometimes it's very difficult to determine which is which, especially in a cultural atmosphere where we have taught the sometimes conflicting principles of free speech and freedom to either embrace a given religion or to decline from doing so. These ideals can so easily come from such divergent mind frames that the definitions of "opinion" and "insult" themselves overcross.
It seems as though the above statements do not neatly fall into one category or another because I can see the speaker believing he is she is stating fact rather than merely an insult. I can also see why the recipient would believe that the speaker is unjustly permitted to insuslt him/her rather than being restricted to mere opinion.
That said, when the poster goes as far as basically saying that "all athiests are bigoted, hateful, and haughty, and that "you" are an athiest, therefore the poster is basically saying the "you are a hateful, haughty bigot."
From the general tone of the conversation I have thusfar reviewed, I am guessing that the poster would consider being accused similarly; .ie., "You are a closed-minded, haughty Christian fanatic" a direct insult.
These moderators have a very difficult job. I would hope that you all understand that and admire their efforts despite your point of view in such matters.
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted May 13, 2009 09:31 PM |
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@ baklava
I understand your point, but this was not was I meant. In my example, I don't think the first statement is an insult ("Religion is the reason...."), while the following one ("People like you...) has a hugh potential to turn out in an insult.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 14, 2009 12:44 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 00:55, 14 May 2009.
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Wow, this is like deja vu... I swear I've seen this whole thing before, and centered around the same thing, no less.
I just hope the moderators here deal with the situation better than those at CH did. They tried banning topics over there and look what happened...
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted May 14, 2009 02:20 AM |
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That is just the point Corribus, we can not make everybody happy all the time. No matter what we do, or how we do it, somebody is going to be upset at it. I consider what is best for the WHOLE forum (the OSM) before acting, and sometimes my Moderating is (as Pan put it) 'late'. I see both sides of this specific issue, because my beliefs are somewhat in the middle between believing in no god and believing that the bible is infallible and can't be questioned. What seems to get lost in all this mess is that it is NOT about religion.
The issue started because of a insult, and the Moderation given was ON that issue and NOTHING else. Not happy with that, somebody decided to try to muddy the water with a bunch of other things...like religion and what is opinion and what is not. So the definition of Atheism according to the Constitution was brought up, the same Constitution that guarantees people the right to their opinion. This also ignored the fact that if somebody just posts things like "You can't question this, because it is the word of god." that they can continue the discussion ignoring that person. It is obvious they do not want to discuss the issue when somebody does that, but there are other people who do.
I know people will be "Why should we ignore them .. blah blah blah.." the same reason you should ignore trolls, and flammers, etc. If a person doesn't want to discuss, discuss with somebody else. Simple eh?
Now lets get back to the original issue, which has been ignored pretty much. Which is insulting others. Sure, I can just slap down a penalty for any even slightly offensive post (in the future). Soon nobody would be able to post, because of floodprotect, not a very helpful thing now is it? The thing is I am positive I did the absolutely correct thing, giving a warning, since more then one person was in the wrong.
I swore I was done with this issue which is going AD Nausium, over and over and over and over. Just remember, this was my decision. The other Mods are just backing that decision. I told you I would butt heads with people, because I've always been the relaxed ; nice; and gentle mod. People expect the same in the OSM, but it is a whole different animal. I've got to make some tough decisions tnat people will not be happy with.
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Message received.
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted May 14, 2009 02:37 AM |
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Quote:
Wow, this is like deja vu... I swear I've seen this whole thing before, and centered around the same thing, no less.
I just hope the moderators here deal with the situation better than those at CH did. They tried banning topics over there and look what happened...
No kidding.
____________
The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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Wolfsburg
Promising
Known Hero
... the Vampire Doc
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posted May 14, 2009 05:12 AM |
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Angelito again seems to have a decisive participation ending a discussion. Thats 2 already.
And I am convinced HC will handle the distress better than the CH. From the moment I stepped in this place I've noticed that freedom of speech was widely exerced. Thats something to be proud of. The very existence of a place like the OSM is a reason to be proud of. Its one of the many reasons I felt home right away.
Im with Azagal all the way. Closing threads and forums is but a sign that moderation is failing in their tasks. I mean, you guys are the bearers of the sword of justice. No one is crazy to start a flame war when they know they can and will be persecuted for it. Unless they are indeed looking for trouble with the mods.
A -QP is a damn stone to the forehead. Everyone knows you guys are unwilling to penalize people with it for minor offenses (which is fully comprehensible). But there is a plethora of ways to penalize flammers outter than giving them -QPs.
I've dedicated quite a bit of time and personal effort for this argument back then in the CH, without much success. But since vampire docs never gice up, I shall try this in my new home as well.
The more I hate soccer, I must say the card system works quite neat. Violent player gets a yellow card in the first 10 minutes of game, BAM, water to wine in a blink. First player of a game gets a red card, both teams think twice before playing dirty. Works wonders.
Here are some alternative punishments after warnings have been ignored.
* Two days without posting in that thread.
* Two days without posting in the OSM
* Five days without posting in that thread
* Five days without posting in the OSM
* Forbidden to post in that thread ever again
* Forbidden to post in OSM until second order.
* Public apology
The disrespect of those determinations would THEN incur in a well -diserved -QP.
During the CH crisis I have even come up with a very graphical display to warn participants, further increasing mods authority within such distresses.
W.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted May 14, 2009 05:32 AM |
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Basically I've tried to say what he did just with less heat. Then again he's undead so controleing your spark should be a lot easier .
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Shadowcaster
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Shaded Scribe
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posted May 14, 2009 10:33 AM |
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Y'know, maybe we ought to stop promising penalties to aggressors every time someone gets their feelings hurt. I know we probably haven't, but it seems to be the general attitude so I'll run with my assumption. Instead, we simply punish a concerted and repeated effort to antagonize other members with oh, say... a 24-hour silence and a slashed shiny. As per the regulation on penalties, members exhibiting this tendency will receive a warning and then a penalty/silence upon the next offense. If the general attitude of antagonization continues after the silence, we can simply hop up the sliding scale of silence until the enforced period of meditation helps our wayward member find a more civil perspective. This kind of "discussion" stemming from a call for penalization makes me sad, and Sadowcaster can become rather cheeky at times.
But really, this is quite a simple matter that should have been open-and-shut. An issue was presented to the moderation staff as per the thread's intent, and a moderator issued a course of action that both other forum mods agreed upon. Not to say that members should never question the Great and Glorious Modsquad™, but I do think the discussion begins to degrade when it begins to turn from the call for the moderators to either choose to act or not and becomes an overinflated argument over a matter that has been decided. Realistically, there aren't going to be any penalties issued, and since I'm sure everyone arguing the merit of suppressing insults with our Red Shuriken of Doom™ is aware of this fact by now, I have to wonder why people insist on dragging the matter out. At least as far as this thread is concerned, there's nothing more to be done.
As for your threatening to leave, JJ, I really wish you wouldn't (if the thought is still lurking in your mind). I'm sure I speak for the rest of the moderators when I say I'd never want a member to leave because of something I did or didn't do, but that kind of thing is never going to work because conviction alone is not going to change anyone's mind on a sensitive matter such as this. Sure, argue your case even after the decision has been made -- we're far from perfect and mods have even been known to reverse their decisions in myths and legends of long ago -- but also realize that there's a point where further arguing is superfluous. I think we've reached that point, don't you?
If you absolutely must continue, by all means send me or the other OSM mods HCMs until your fingers turn blue or take the discussion to another thread more suited to a prolonged debate over whether the mods are right or wrong. The decision's been made and it's not going to change, and this discussion therefore no longer belongs here.
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>_>
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