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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted July 21, 2009 06:07 PM |
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Quote:
Why fight windmills?
In honnor of don quixote.
Listen i've been in here for sevral years and there is no one who knows better then me about being the bigger person,becouse i was in your situation,and it took me time to realise EVERYTHING JUST NOT THE WAY I WANT,IM NOT WRONG,YOU ARE,I DONT CARE WHY YOU THINK I AM WRONG,AND I DONT CARE HOW YOU TRY PROVE IT I WILL COUNTER IT FOR SAKE OF ARGUINNG-kind of attitute. if you see over and over how person X is responding to a qoute challange or debate,stop debating him. you'd be much more respected if you avoid those sitaitions. that does not means you've lost,it means you're smart.
im not taking any signs,i just know where its going to end. a penallity,for both.. 4 times.
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types in obscure english
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 21, 2009 06:56 PM |
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I have an idea. How about if we just ban all the people whining about JJ, Elodin, Mvass and Thedeath. Simple. 95% of the problems would be solved. Frankly I am so ****ing tired of all the turmoil and chaos around here.
If they don't like it and want to argue about it, well tough ****. They hardly post anyway. 
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See? Don't like it? Then don't post stuff like that. 
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Eccentric Opinion
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted July 21, 2009 07:40 PM |
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Quote:
I have an idea. How about if we just ban all the people whining about JJ, Elodin, Mvass and Thedeath. Simple. 95% of the problems would be solved. Frankly I am so ****ing tired of all the turmoil and chaos around here.
If they don't like it and want to argue about it, well tough ****. They hardly post anyway.
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See? Don't like it? Then don't post stuff like that.
Childish....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted July 21, 2009 07:43 PM |
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Quote:
Wait another sec here and excuse my French, but are you people suddenly out of your minds?
One second everyone is trying to calm down Elodin, we, Mytical, have a nice chat, basically everyone agrees about too much quoting not being that great, then someone says, what about banning those 4 people, I take offense - while being a popular miracle cure, letting heads roll really haven't done that much good generally -, and suddenly it goes *poof*, and there I am in the dock. "If you two don't grow up..."
What happened? Did I post under an alias or something I don't know about?
Is it ok to ask for banning people from the board? Shall we make polls for everyone the people so desire to be banned?
Am I to understand that it is showing guts asking openly to ban people, while engaging openly in a reasonable discussion trying to get to the core of a problem is creating trouble?
Okay. If you think so. Why fight windmills?
If you know the core of the problem (which obviously lies in the answers of Elodin), why do you not stop answering him? If Elodin doesn't get ammunition, he can't continue spreading.
As long as people go to church on sunday, there will be a preacher present.
I have chosen this way for me right now...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 21, 2009 08:47 PM |
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Better childish than Stalinist. "Those people are doing something I don't like. Let's purge them." 
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Eccentric Opinion
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 21, 2009 09:29 PM |
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Untrue things are being said about me but I will no longer defend myself. Because nothing I say matters.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 21, 2009 09:38 PM |
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Quote:
Untrue things are being said about me but I will no longer defend myself. Because nothing I say matters.
You should get used to it. I stopped caring anymore.
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 22, 2009 06:31 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 07:25, 22 Jul 2009.
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Jolly, allow me some of my own points.
2) Yes you complained. As others have complained about you as well. WE wanted a diplomatic solution, but of course sometimes it just does not seem possible.
a) People CAN (and have) misunderstand things, Since we can not read minds we have to take his words for it that it is not on purpose.
b) The reason we did not give an official reaction is we were trying to sort things out. Again trying the more diplomatic approach.
c) You really could not resist the urge to respond instead of giving us the time to sort things out.
3) Things run off topic all the time. It is not a capital crime. We will get it back on track.
4) It is nice how you complain about people putting words in your mouth and then put words in others mouth. Double standard perhaps? No WE (meaning the Mods) do NOT WANT to ban ANYBODY. I WILL do what is neccessary to protect this board. Period. However, I would RATHER have people either a) treat each other with respect or b) ignore somebody they can not respect. Really doesn't seem an unreasonable request.
5) Because it takes two to tango.
6) Yes, and I not only acknowledged it, but supported it, and still think that it is a wonderful thing...
Again, you are taking things personal when it is not. As I told you multiple times : Everybody is entitled to their opinion. No matter how wrong or mistaken IN SOMEBODY ELSES EYES (I am NOT saying one opinion or the other IS WRONG). However, there is one thing that I did miss that I must now address.
It doesn't matter if the quote is from the bible or mein kemp (spelling?). If it has racism, sexism, etc (violates the CoC) it WILL be penalized just like anything else will. That is MY Bad which I am now making a correction about.
Now to address Elodin.
Don't try to play the victim card here. It's got old fast. You do tend to take things a bit too personally. WE have the RIGHT to disagree with you. If you do not like or understand that, there are other boards that will agree with you 100% of the time. YOU have the RIGHT to disagree with US, and make your case. Just like Jolly has been doing. Just like Jolly, however, here is something that has to be understood. The right of the INDIVIDUAL can not superceed the RIGHTS of the MANY.
WE want an atmosphere of open discussion, we would like NOTHING better. When that no longer is possible for whatever reason, WE (the Moderators) have to take steps to correct that. Taking religion out of it (it honestly is not because of anybody's religious views) others have been talked to about exactly the same thing as this. Respecting others.
Is it REALLY so hard to ask "What did you mean by.." when a PERCEIVED insult occurs?
It takes at least two, and there have been more then two that is absolutely true. Never said otherwise. People are focusing on people and PERCIEVED insults, instead of the actual posts. That is Trolling and Flaming, which I am sure nobody wants to do. Right? So instead of rising to the bait (percieved or actual), why not actually be a bit more 'mature' and a bigger person then the person trying to bait you?
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Message received.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 22, 2009 08:00 AM |
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@ Mytical
Well, I said I would not defend myself again, but here are some comments.
First, if you review my latest posts you will that I am not quoting others a lot. Others have made claims about the what the Bible says and I have addressed those claims from the Bible in a religion thread however, using minimal Biblical quotes. And I have tried to keep the discussion on topic when it is straying.
Sometimes there may be a dozen "slams" against religion in a single post and I might respond to each point. That is easier to do by quoting each thing and then responding.
But I'll just mostly sumarize what others say in the future to reference what I am responding to, using minimal quotations.
I wrote you specificly before (one time) complaining about the continual use of provocative terms like brainwashing, indoctrination, mental rape, ect that are clear violations of the code of conduct.
Nothing has seemingly ever been done to address the use of such terms until the times when I have applied them to atheists. Unless you scolded others behind the scene and I did not know about it. But still the continual religion bashing (from one or two individuals specificly) continued unabated.
I really don't mean that as a criticism of you. Everyone reads posts through glasses colored with their beliefs and you may have different ideas of what is offensive.
Quote:
WE have the RIGHT to disagree with you.
Please don't ever say I have said you don't have a right to disagree with me. I am the one who was defending the right of ecach parent to teach his own religion to his child. I have stated well over a dozen times that everyone is entitiled to his own belief.
That is why I say it does not matter what I say. The same charge that somehow I say others don't have a right to their own belief is always thrown back at me when I have said the opposite.
I too want open discussion. I believe everyone has a right to present his beliefs. I answer questions. I ask questions. That is discussion.
Atheists say their belief is true. I say my belief is true. If you say that me saying my belief is true is wrong you have to say that others saying their beliefs are true is wrong (including atheists.)
Quote:
It doesn't matter if the quote is from the bible or mein kemp (spelling?). If it has racism, sexism, etc (violates the CoC) it WILL be penalized just like anything else will. That is MY Bad which I am now making a correction about.
The Bible does not contain racism or sexism so that is not a problem.
Are you going to disallow things like saying religious people brainwash their children? That is a clear violation of the code of conduct.
Quote:
Racism is any remark that associates negativity with a person or group of people based on their nationality, ethnicity, religion, race, place of origin, or skin color.
If one is allowed to call a Christian a fanatic or brainwashed then atheists should also be allowed to be called brainwashed or a fanatic, right? But as I said, if those are considered insults I won't insult back when I am insulted, I'll just point out the insult to you.
Anywazzz I want to post by the rules and to have others do the same. I MUCH prefer civiil discussions and want everyone to express their own opinions. If an atheist argues for atheism I should be allowed to refute his arguments (which isn't hard ) and to say what Christianity says. Sound fair?
If I make some sort of post that you think is wrong PM me and I'll correct it post haste. Peace on earth and good will towards men. For anyone who does not believe in those concepts, disregard.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 22, 2009 08:48 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 08:51, 22 Jul 2009.
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Responding to posts based on the issues is commendable. About the quotes you can do the following. It helps me tremendously. Use quotes, but just delete them in your post after addressing them. I have a somewhat horrible memory (I take extensive notes about HCM's and such for this reason, but I sometimes still forget). You can sumarize if you must, but would it not be better to just respond to what they say instead of restating what has been said? Note that just because you understand it one way is not neccessarily the way they mean something. A lot can be lost 'in the translation'.
Stating an opinion is not automattically a provocation. As I explained in my previous post, just because one person dislikes what somebody's opinion is does not automatically make that person right. Instead of answering generalizations with generalizations (ie answering "All religous people are brainwashed" with "All people who think god doesn't exsist are puppets.") answer with something like "That is an unfair generalisation.." going on to say why. You don't have to LIKE the poster, OR their opinion. If you can NOT talk to somebody, then don't. If you can, then why not do so in a more civil manner? Then they are shown for what they are, and you maintain the respect of your peers. Win/win.
The second somebody lowers themselves to responding more negatively, it starts to escalate, as the person they respond to will become more negative. Now everybody has generally said that responses will be more positive in nature in the future. Which is good.
For instance this conversation. I am trying to make it understood that there was (I am really hoping it is WAS) an toxic atmosphere that needs to be cleared. Nothing more.
Elodin I respect your views. I myself held them at one time. Heck if I could me and you would sit down face to face and discuss for days. I might learn a thing or three. I don't agree with all of your views, but I respect them. Yes, I've even had to talk to several people about the terms used. I really try to keep things in HCM's private unless somebody calls me out on them .
Also I did not mean that you do not accept our right to disagree with you, but that you seem to take offense when their is none intended. Or take personal offense when your religion is brought up. You are not a victim here, a victim is guiltless. There is enough guilt to go around 5 times over, for a LOT of people.
We have never said saying your belief is true is wrong. It is not about your beliefs, but HOW you say it. Please understand that.
Saying things like "This or that is brainwashing" is an opinion, not against the CoC. Again feel free to refute the brainwashing, just remember it is an opinion and not a PERSONAL attack. That is the big difference. Now if they say "Elodin is Brainwashed" I will personally be there with my Fish and/or Mallet to set things right. Again not what is said, but how it is said.
Yes your religion is important to you, and a huge part of your life. This board is not a religious board, and sepeartion for the sake of discussion is needed. Saying something against a belief is not provocation or against the CoC. It is an opinion. Just like saying something for a belief is not provocation or against the CoC. Pardon me while I use a quote (I apologise beforehand about doing so).
Quote:
If one is allowed to call a Christian a fanatic or brainwashed then atheists should also be allowed to be called brainwashed or a fanatic, right? But as I said, if those are considered insults I won't insult back when I am insulted, I'll just point out the insult to you.
I think the above has covered this, I will be happy to expound on it in HCM if not.
We have made some great progress so far. I think everybody now understands the ISSUE. People can misread and misunderstand others, being human. Even if it is not a misunderstanding, responding in kind (or more negatively) starts a downward spirl that will never end.
Do you think for one second if I did not care for this board, and valued the posters (every one of them) of it that I would even bother trying to get people to understand? I wouldn't be loosing near as much sleep if I didn't care about this board. I don't really care what people think about ME. All the Moderators care about the board, we'd rather be sitting back having fun and enjoying the show (and maybe participating in the fun ).
I seriously think both you and Jollyjoker care about the board also. So lets move forward (instead of beating a horse that is not only dead but decayed).
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Message received.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 22, 2009 10:04 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 10:11, 22 Jul 2009.
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@JJ
I would think that attacking people who believe in a religion is wrong. One should address the tenets (or practices of) of the religion instead.
If you say something like "religious people brainwash their children" I think that is attacking people rather than ideas and is expressing an opinion in a provocative manner. Calling a person a fanatic would also be provocation. It is not at all addressing ideas.
You could say "I don't think religious people should be able to teach their children their religion" which would not be a attacking a group of people. Give your ideas why and then others will then give reasons for supporting your opinion or opposing your opinion.
But if you (or whoever) were to say that religious people brainwash their children. Your opponent should be allowed to say "Atheists (or whatever) brainwash their children. Or atheists should not be allowed to teach atheism to their children and give reasons why.
An even playing field for everyone.
Also, if a person says something like "The Bible says to rape babies" he should cite the source. Some people just throw out provocative things, knowing the Bible (or whatever) does not in fact say that.
In any thread is addressing philosophy, morals, religion, ect the Bible should be allowed. If you (or whoever) can quote Confusious I can quote the Bible. If you can quote an atheist apologist (like Dawkins) I can quote the Bible. If someone says Christians believe (or do, or are) this or that I can address that with the Bible or other sources. If you say "God does not exist" I should be allowed to address that and cite whatever sources I believe to be appropriate.
A person is always speaking from the point of view of the beliefs he holds. If a person is an atheist he will be speaking from the point of view of atheism. If a person is a Christian he will be speaking from the point of view of a Christian.
I certainly don't and won't turn every thread into a religious debate. I have no desire to do that. I generally limit myself mostly to religion threads or threads related to religion/morality in any event.
So I look forward to no views being censured and to everyone (me too) addressing the issues, not commenting on people or generalizing about groups of people. 
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted July 22, 2009 10:40 AM |
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Edited by angelito at 10:41, 22 Jul 2009.
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I would also like to add, everybody shouldn't use phrases from other posters and turn them around so their original meaning is completely lost, just to point out how much of a victim oneself is, and how much bad the "aggressors" are. This happens pretty often...at least by specific posters.
I give 1 example:
original phrase
"Don't call everyone who is NOT a christian fanatic an atheist".
Modified usage:
"Calling ME a fanatic is an insult!"
I hope you all get the point. I could come up with even more examples, but I think this single one should be enough to make it clear.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 22, 2009 11:18 AM |
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@ Angelito
Such an original statement spoken to a Christian is usually implying that the Christian being addressed is a fanatic. Statements directed in such a third party language can easily be targeting the individual whom is addressed. But like I said, if there is an even playing field, that is all I want.
Often person using such language become quite offended if a similar third party statement addressed to them is uttered by the other party.
@JJ
I would disagree with you on the meaning of fanatic, but if you would not be offended by an atheist who puts a lot of effort into refuting religion being called a fanatic either so there is no problem.
As for the remainder of your post, there is no reason to discuss who bears the burden of proof between theism and atheism in this thread. And of course I do disagree with several of your statements.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 22, 2009 12:13 PM |
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I will politely remind you both that this is NOT the thread for this debate.
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Message received.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted July 22, 2009 12:38 PM |
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JJ. We can detect a strange gravitational influence in the universe - we chose to call it dark matter. A poor analogy with Gods.
sorry off-topic...
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted July 22, 2009 01:25 PM |
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In my eyes, the word "fanatic" isn't obviously a bad one.
Just an example to make it more clearly:
In my eyes, if someone knows every player of a football team by his name, he is a fan/supporter.
If he knows their shoe size and birthdays by heart aswell, he is a fanatic.
But that doesn't mean he is a bad person. He may forget the birthday of his wife, but never the birthday of the second linebacker of his team..
You could call me H3 fanatic also...coz I know pretty much all stats of every hero and creature by heart, but on the other hand, I always forget the weight of my wife..
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 22, 2009 01:33 PM |
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Create a thread or move this discussion. Next post on that topic in this thread will be penalized.
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Message received.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 22, 2009 02:13 PM |
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I created a new topic, if any of mods think it's redundant feel free to delete it, but I really think TA's thread isn't really meant to be a place to discuss religion, but it's rather about his own feelings about giving up on religion, thus we shouldn't discuss it there.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 27, 2009 08:02 PM |
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I'd like to comment on angelito's warning in the "Excuse Me" thread here because I'm seriously tired of blind accusations without any concrete backup (not least from the CoC).
Quote:
Again a so typical TheDeath reply. Not very thoughtfull...but at least an argument against someone else.
The question is if someone finds dolphin meat (an animal!) tastier than chicken (an animal), and he comes up with human meat or even non-living stuff like plastic and metal.
I tell you what....if you don't find a better way to discuss, but just provoke people with posting childish nonsense, I will give you a break. I watched it for a very long time now, but you still act the same all over. Arguing just for playing devil's advocate.
This is my last warning on that matter!
I tell YOU what. I don't see anything in the CoC about "TheDeath 'style'". Tell me what I specifically broke and I want a precise answer, not mumbo jumbo. I didn't provoke, I didn't insult, with THAT post. Wasn't racist, on the other hand, those I argued against can be considered "speciesists"!
I don't know if you do this to me and mvass (and a few others) because we raise LOGICAL points that no one can easily argue against (I don't know what they taught you in school, but here I remember something along the lines of humans being animals, not sure about your biology though).
As for the "computer" of course if you had any common sense you would notice it was about property, that is, involving something else. It was a reminder for them that they are affecting others (including animals). It's not "do as you want as long as you harm no one" because it IS affecting/harming someone. Period.
All in all my post obviously makes perfect sense as I explained above (but SERIOUSLY, did I HAD to explain it in such detail? really, why waste so much time on a thing so easily understood?), but those who want to attack TheDeath and Mvass will try to cling to any possible post to warn them.
Why the hell do you even care what I think? Because I can play Devil's Advocate and it is the DAMN POST that is posted, I'm starting to think you rather attack the members for what they actually believe rather than the points they make, and that is childish 'discussion', actually it's just personal interest.
Tell you what. Next time read my post as if it was posted anonymously and you have no idea who's opinion that is. Because frankly, anything else can be considered provocation for the member, if you argue with what he is and believes instead of the post he makes.
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted July 27, 2009 10:32 PM |
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You are provoking. period.
You just post nonsense all over again and again.
Just check your last reply to my post in the God thread:
I post about people who didn't get knowledge of Jesus, and you come up with "2 different armies" and "logical is irrelevant". Completely NON related to my post at all.
You just want to fight against others...this is ALL you want. You hardly post your own opinion (you once said this yourself...remember?), but just try to find a post where you can argue against.
And this is not what a community is about. The OSM is mostly about serious topics, and people want serious dicussions...not someone who has nothing else to do but finding posts where he can argue against.
So I repeat it: I don't care if YOU are tired of me, but I care if MANY others are tired of YOU.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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