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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Academy:The Best Race in HOMM5
Thread: Academy:The Best Race in HOMM5 This thread is 15 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 · «PREV / NEXT»
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 20, 2007 09:51 PM

That's the spirit.. Blast them, run and come back to blast'em more!

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted March 20, 2007 09:58 PM

Reminds good old times!
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.

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86wyp
86wyp


Adventuring Hero
posted March 20, 2007 10:25 PM

Quote:
Sinitar's advantage is visible in around lvl 15 where he can use empowered spells almost as much as his normal ones but he may not get warlock's luck for sure like Vayshan. Eruina too has a great start but I prefer the fully magic route(though her special comes along nicely later on ) Many times my picks are based on skills and not specials.


For me, luck is not a must have skill for warlocks especially sinitar. Defence, logistics, summoning and even war machines are also great skills. There are many times when destructive magics are not enough, like when I don't have many mana and have to face a very tough tank or the opponent cast resurrection or raise dead all the time or I am counter spelled, then phoenix and ballista become life savers. Arcane armor+armageddon is a great magic combo for dungeon. Just cast arcane armor on hydras, then two armageddons ends the battle.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 20, 2007 10:40 PM

well I prefer the "extreme magic" path. In other words, you completely don't care for your army damage and focus totally on destructive damage! Works wonders, and luck is absolutely necessary here (for the one-point-wonder called warlock's luck)

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Plexus22
Plexus22


Known Hero
posted March 20, 2007 10:44 PM

Quote:
Creeping? Yes it helps more against fast units there you might have sustained casualties and the extra furies are welcome. Also it will help to kill really big stacks as they come in stacks of 3 and you must kill them in a limited amount of time if the battlefield has no obstacle.
In a duel of heroes? Even then for the few hits they'll manage, the difference is noticeable plus they are easily resurrected with raise dead, many of them. In you have luck and it triggers you'll be glad you had that specialty.


I have to agree here....sure Furies arent exactly tanks and a hit or two on them will be devestating but they will always be one of the first creatures to act in the final battle (if not the first) and they can get a hit or two in before being touched. If placed well, they may not be touched for a while (except maybe by magic/shooters)and they do good damage so they can definitely make that critical difference in the final battle. Especially if it is an early week 3-4 battle which is more likely than a final battle with huge stacks of high level creatures in which case they are significantly less important.

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted March 20, 2007 11:19 PM

Quote:

We don't always use heroic level, you can use this strategy in hard level too and it will become even more powerful because you might have phocnix in one week!What can dougal do when facing a phoenix in 10 days?


I must say that Towerlord said something wrong about MMR. The point is to creep fast using magics but not to build fifth level mage guild fast.


Maybe you should define the whole concept of MMR a little better. From what I understood from your previous posts, you build level 5 mage guild really fast ! Now what do you do here ? Contradict yourself ?

Anyway I am not a MMR fan actually, because it seems to much gamble to me. I prefer to use Nathir, with his Destructive + Sorcery , EnlightMent  and depending on map I take either  War Machines + Logistics(if I get them), or another Magic school (especially Summoning if I can get my hands on the Phoenix).

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86wyp
86wyp


Adventuring Hero
posted March 20, 2007 11:46 PM

In the orgional post, I have claimed that the central idea of MMR is using magic. We built level 5 mage guild fast because those are rush games, and I admit at that time, our creeping skill were not as good as now. Phoenix is also necessary when you are going to face dragons in their castle, and some other level 7 creatures. However, MMR does not equal to gambling for phoenix or implosion.

The inventor of this strategy once said that to be a good homm5 player, one must know how to use magics wisely, and playing academy is the best way to learn and practice that. To tell you the truth, I never used academy before seeing those games which I posted here, and I have been very sceptical at first just like many players here, but now I agree with him.

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Plexus22
Plexus22


Known Hero
posted March 21, 2007 06:50 AM

I just finished my first attempt at MMR. I decided to give it a go because I like Academy and I'm interrested by the strategy and I chose Mystics Vale so I could learn it proper on said notorious map. Yep, its a risky strategy! Heres what I ended up with in my mage guild:
1- Divine Strength, Fist of Wrath, Slow, Weakness
2- Cleansing, Wasp Swarm, Ice Bolt, Vulnerability
3- Deflect Missile, Earthquake, Circle of Winter, Suffering
4- Magical Immunity, Summon Elementals, Blindness
5- Word of Light, Arcane Armor, Curse of the Netherworld

Thats like the worst lineup possible
I chose Nur as main with Galib as her tag-along because of his ease in gaining resourcefulness. That worked well. What I found is that in the first two weeks my creeping tactics really didn't change much from what they normally are with Academy. Nur comes with Eldrich Arrow which I used a lot but other than that, gremlins, gargs, and mages were key in winning battles. There was two problems that made it difficult to use any kind of high level magic for creeping in the first couple of weeks. One, its easy to build mage guild up fast but your hero has to be ready for it which I found to be difficult to build up even two magic disciplines quickly. I kept getting offered crappy skills, and abilities that werent very helpful either instead of what I needed. Two, you have to go back to your town any time you want to update your spellbook which ruins efficiency when you are a day or two away and the only way to creep early with good spells is to update your spellbook often. I did find it easy to maintain gold and resources because I didn't focus on dwellings in the first week. By the end of the second week I had lvl 4 mage guild built and pretty much most of the good creature dwellings including lvl 7 which I built on day 7. Nur was level 13 at the end of week 2, which brings me to another issue: I don't think Mystics vale is all that great of a map for this strategy. Everyone claims its the best but honestly I didn't feel that I was leveling up all that fast because there are not many very tough guards. Occasionally a pack of druids or something like that but mostly hoards of lvl 1 or 2 and lots of wimpy (in terms of hitpoints) shooters. Given I did play on hard not heroic (maybe a bad choice) but after week 1 none of the battles were really that challenging. I think a map with more varieties of battles to chose from would be more suiting for this strategy. One with a fair share of lvl 5 and lvl 6 creatures and maybe a stack of lvl 7 here and there. Afterall whats the point in kicking ass with good magic if opponents are wimps?

Another thing that wasn't so great about this map is that your opponent can be on your doorstep midway through week 2 while you are away adventuring.

My general impressions were that the strategy is sound, not necessarily reliable, but manageable as long as too much crappy skills/abilities/spells don't come your way. I think creeping was easier and you really don't take too much of a hit on troop numbers either just a little from the lack of focus in the first week and a half or so. I managed to whoop the computer even with my crappy spell selection but thats not saying much especially considering it was hard difficulty not heroic.

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SilverSeraph
SilverSeraph

Tavern Dweller
posted March 21, 2007 08:57 AM

Three things.

First, one of the most common complaints about MMR is that it's not reliable/too random/too much hassle etc. etc. In my opinion, that's the fun of it. One thing I find most annoying about the other factions is that it's always the same strategy - like Marksmen with Haven and Skeleton Archers with Necropolis. With Academy, you never know what spells you get from the guild and so have to adjust your strategy accordingly.

Second, would someone, anyone please answer my questions? That is, against which factions are Counterspell, Magic Mirror and Dark and Light Magic suppressors best at?

And third, this thread "is" about Academy, so could people please try to keep the discussion about other factions to a minimum. I mean, don't you think that's weird when a person (like myself) comes looking for information about how to play Academy better and finds pages full of posts on who is the best Dungeon hero?

HAND, all

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 21, 2007 09:25 AM

You are right, we've done a major offtopic here.

Anyways...

Counterspell would be good against one hero: warlock, after the matriarchs are gone. And since the warlock player is well-aware of the possibility you use the counterspell, he will probably come with splitted stack of matriarchs, possibly well-guarded with minos and hydras, maybe even dragons if he reaches them. So, it ain't too practical.

Supress light may be good against knight when used together with light magic. But, do you really need it that much? I'd say only if you have puppet master. Frenzy is un-cleansable anyway. The problem is, the knight may have refined mana, which completely nullifies the effect of supress light. So, either pick it or leave it for another mastery instead.

Supress dark.. Well, that may be actually good against a necromancer. Even though he has MoTN, Puppet master costing 38 mana will kill his supplies quickly (not mentioning mass spells) and you will be safer a bit.

Magic mirror is an obvious choice against warlock.

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted March 21, 2007 11:02 AM

Quote:
In the orgional post, I have claimed that the central idea of MMR is using magic. We built level 5 mage guild fast because those are rush games, and I admit at that time, our creeping skill were not as good as now. Phoenix is also necessary when you are going to face dragons in their castle, and some other level 7 creatures. However, MMR does not equal to gambling for phoenix or implosion.

The inventor of this strategy once said that to be a good homm5 player, one must know how to use magics wisely, and playing academy is the best way to learn and practice that. To tell you the truth, I never used academy before seeing those games which I posted here, and I have been very sceptical at first just like many players here, but now I agree with him.

-----------------

I just finished my first attempt at MMR. I decided to give it a go because I like Academy and I'm interrested by the strategy and I chose Mystics Vale so I could learn it proper on said notorious map. Yep, its a risky strategy! Heres what I ended up with in my mage guild:
1- Divine Strength, Fist of Wrath, Slow, Weakness
2- Cleansing, Wasp Swarm, Ice Bolt, Vulnerability
3- Deflect Missile, Earthquake, Circle of Winter, Suffering
4- Magical Immunity, Summon Elementals, Blindness
5- Word of Light, Arcane Armor, Curse of the Netherworld




MMR is not about gambling , Phoenix, Implosion or Armageddon , that's true ... I understand it is about creeping fast with magic, but after doing all that creeping you must attack your opponent and that's when the gambling factor comes into play , cause if you got the spells like Plexus, you're gonna lose even if you have 2-3 levels mre than your opponent.
Or maybe you can do something of these spells too ... But in some situations you simply cannot. What can you do against a rush from Yrwanna with a simple Fireball with that really bad spell selection? It will be 99% a loss

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phinex
phinex


Adventuring Hero
for sylvan
posted March 21, 2007 11:31 AM

I don't think so 99% to lose.
First make the mini-artifact to increase the hp of gremlin and Gargoyle,then cast Arcane Armor on Gargoyle or golem,then use Curse of the Netherworld,and it has a good effect on the Dungeon army.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 21, 2007 11:56 AM

MotW and icebolt? Enough to kill the furies with.. 2 casts? What's the problem?

Warlock's magic power may be the problem, though. But not those dying-to-everything creatures, please

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted March 21, 2007 12:17 PM
Edited by TowerLord at 12:19, 21 Mar 2007.

Quote:
I don't think so 99% to lose.
First make the mini-artifact to increase the hp of gremlin and Gargoyle,then cast Arcane Armor on Gargoyle or golem,then use Curse of the Netherworld,and it has a good effect on the Dungeon army.


you will be killing your gremlins in the process too , unfortunately ... and he'll probably have at least hydras 6-9 , because he went for troops while you went for mage guilds. I am not sure if the curse hurts the gargoyles though ... i never tried it .

And also his empowered fireball will be doing more dmg to your gargoyles , even with their immunity , then you do to his troops with the curse of the netherworlds . very slim chances to win this way , imho

of course i am not relying on the furys there ... they might score some nice dmg thogh , if you get the shoes with +1 speed or tactics

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phinex
phinex


Adventuring Hero
for sylvan
posted March 21, 2007 02:19 PM
Edited by phinex at 14:29, 21 Mar 2007.

Quote:

you will be killing your gremlins in the process too , unfortunately ... and he'll probably have at least hydras 6-9 , because he went for troops while you went for mage guilds. I am not sure if the curse hurts the gargoyles though ... i never tried it .

And also his empowered fireball will be doing more dmg to your gargoyles , even with their immunity , then you do to his troops with the curse of the netherworlds . very slim chances to win this way , imho s


First,6~9 hydra,may I recognize it means w3 or w4?

I think you misunderstand the MMR at this point.
Go for mage guild doesn't mean troops are week,at least,it will have a lot of low-level creatures.
In w3,the troops include about 130+gremlin(with havez then even more ,50gargoyles,15+golem as usual,if w4,the troops are even more and with some high-level.So the academy's troops are not so week as you thought.

With the Arcane Armor,fireball only deal 25% damage at gargoyle.Dungeon hero's sp is about 15~20,then the empowered fireball's damage do about 120~160 damage at gargoyle.Do your still recognize fireball is powerful in this situation?
So I think you underestimate the power of Arcane Armor.

Dugeon's have 5 stacks(or 4),and academy's only have 3 stacks,besides,grgoyles with arcane armor,golems have magic proof,with the mini-artifact,academy's troops hp is more than dungeon.
Then which will lost more troops?

At last,I should fix my mistake.I mean cast the Curse of the Netherworld first,not the whole battle.Then use notw and ice bolt on hydra after other troops died.

There are the reasons why I don't think Dungeon have 99% chance to win .

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted March 21, 2007 02:25 PM

I admit, that Arcane Armor on golems/gargs is a lifesaver. Still can be penetrated by 3,5k meteor shower (I know, i've done it)
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 21, 2007 03:16 PM

You still have some meat to kill the gargs. And when he arcanearmors them, just go blast something else. Although I admit that wizzie is a problem for warlock..

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted March 21, 2007 03:45 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 15:46, 21 Mar 2007.

Few days ago i had a game. He was Razzak and got golem town specialization and there was golem dwelling on map also so he had almost 200 golems  which he Arcane Armored and Phantom Forced. That was real nightmare . But pendant of mastery and lucky spells saved the day
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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted March 21, 2007 05:46 PM
Edited by TowerLord at 17:47, 21 Mar 2007.

Quote:
Quote:

you will be killing your gremlins in the process too , unfortunately ... and he'll probably have at least hydras 6-9 , because he went for troops while you went for mage guilds. I am not sure if the curse hurts the gargoyles though ... i never tried it .

And also his empowered fireball will be doing more dmg to your gargoyles , even with their immunity , then you do to his troops with the curse of the netherworlds . very slim chances to win this way , imho s


First,6~9 hydra,may I recognize it means w3 or w4?

I think you misunderstand the MMR at this point.
Go for mage guild doesn't mean troops are week,at least,it will have a lot of low-level creatures.
In w3,the troops include about 130+gremlin(with havez then even more ,50gargoyles,15+golem as usual,if w4,the troops are even more and with some high-level.So the academy's troops are not so week as you thought.

With the Arcane Armor,fireball only deal 25% damage at gargoyle.Dungeon hero's sp is about 15~20,then the empowered fireball's damage do about 120~160 damage at gargoyle.Do your still recognize fireball is powerful in this situation?
So I think you underestimate the power of Arcane Armor.

Dugeon's have 5 stacks(or 4),and academy's only have 3 stacks,besides,grgoyles with arcane armor,golems have magic proof,with the mini-artifact,academy's troops hp is more than dungeon.
Then which will lost more troops?

At last,I should fix my mistake.I mean cast the Curse of the Netherworld first,not the whole battle.Then use notw and ice bolt on hydra after other troops died.

There are the reasons why I don't think Dungeon have 99% chance to win .


I am talking about w3 of course ... in week 4 there will be 12 + hydras for sure! On the other hand you seem to think you have unlimited resources and unlimited time... You know having Curse of the Netherworlds means you built mages , and Library . Also by saying you have mini-arties , it means you also built the mini-art building ...
Also blacksmith , gargoyles and golems ...

Assuming you did have resources for all these, after all this spending, I don't think you'll have any more for mini arties ... also money don't grow on trees and since you built library and all those buildings you won't have the capitol, maybe not even the City Hall, and money don't grow on trees, nor do the resources.

Assuming that all those economic problems didn't touch you, because of some strange divine gifts on map , you still face a powerfull dungeon army with a powerfull dungeon hero, which posseses Fireball , and since you have acomplished so many in only 2 weeks, lets assume he also has the "basic" stone spikes(and 2 more lvl 1 spells) , ~30 furys , ~30 Assassins, 12 Raiders and also the 9 hydras (cause he also got some divine gifts).

Lets make some favourable suppositions for you :
1. his furys/raiders don't reach your troops in first turn(no tactics, no +1 speed boots)
2. you placed your troops correctly so he can't destroy 2 stacks at once with Fireball
3. your hero acts before his hero, so you casts arcane armor before he can hit your gargoyles with em stone spikes at 100% dmg

his first move will be to move his furys forward so he can reach your troops next time , but cannot be reached by them. Also the raiders will be moved in the same way.

then you shoot with 130 MG , probably on furys (out of range of course) killing 2, at most 3 because they are Yrwanna's. after that you cast arcane armor on gargs.
fireball on gremlins killing at least half of them. MG's become neglectable ... cause they 'll be killed by Curse of the Netherworlds.
then furys attack gargoyles doing about (350-400 dmg) 175-200 dmg  due to arcane armor = 10 dead gargs. then you shoot with you Curse , and take out ~10 furys , 4 raiders , 1+ 3/4 hydras (Assassins are neglectable imho too). Also you take out some of your troops.

then the remaining 8 raiders kill some gargoyles ... his hero kills  more gargoyles ...

probably by now you are left with 20 garg, max 30 gargs  and the 15 golems which dye from 1 Empowered fireball . I also give you the favourable assumption the hydras don't even try to reach you to deal some dmg.

From this point I say its pointless to continue the virtual battle, Dungeon has clearly won imho, even though these were the most favourable conditions. I don't even wanna imagine the carnage if the furys reach gargs from the first turn
Maybe I didn't calc all things perfectly ... andmade some rough aproximations , but basically that's how the battle would go.

Of course this is on of the worst possible situation in terms of mage guild for Academy. Actually I think that with a good Mage Guild Academy can defeat Dungeon most of the times... But I really don't like this gambling ! There simply is too much difference between lvl 5 spells ( which are academy's salt and pepper)

Phoenix is awesome , Arcane Armor is only "good" at most
Ressurection is good , maybe very good , Word of Light is mediocre
The Dark Spells and Destructive spells are harder to get fast unfortunatelly . Destructive spells especially seem more reliable !

The real problem is that getting only "good" spells won't win you the game , you need great ones cause you don't have the huge spell power of dungeon!

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Plexus22
Plexus22


Known Hero
posted March 21, 2007 11:40 PM

Quote:
In w3,the troops include about 130+gremlin(with havez then even more ,50gargoyles,15+golem as usual,if w4,the troops are even more and with some high-level.So the academy's troops are not so week as you thought.


In my game the AI attacked me midway through week 3 at which time I had 300+ gremlins but I couldn't use them in that first battle agains AI because my hero had to make an emergency flee back to town (where they were attacking me) and ditch her army with another hero. This was on Mystics Vale, though, where I had access to an ext gremlin dwelling and also I took gremlins from Havez.


Quote:
I don't think so 99% to lose.
First make the mini-artifact to increase the hp of gremlin and Gargoyle,then cast Arcane Armor on Gargoyle or golem,then use Curse of the Netherworld,and it has a good effect on the Dungeon army.

Only if you have time to make mini artifacts. This brings up a question I would like some oppinions on: With limited gold and resources and you are getting ready to attack your opponent is it better to spend your money hiring the troops in your castle (assuming you still have a good amount of troops for hire that could really benefit your army) or spend your money building arties for the troops your already have (assuming you have a decent army already)? Whats the general oppinion on this?

One more thing, I think the Arcan Armor is a nice spell for sure but unless you are building a strategy around one stack it probably will not win the battle for you. Now, if they modified it to have a small area of effect (maybe just 4 tiles) then it would be a serious contender against massively damaging onslaughts of destructive magic like meteor shower and implosion.

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