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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Academy:The Best Race in HOMM5
Thread: Academy:The Best Race in HOMM5 This thread is 15 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 · «PREV / NEXT»
TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted February 19, 2007 04:57 PM

Quote:
are you sure ?! i always try to get 5 luck for my warlocks and never seem to get even close to 50% chance of getting lucky spells . and even with the ranger , i see luck many times , but it never seems to be 50% of the times ...
It seems you have a cursed ring with you, and I have a Golden Horseshoe, 'cause it seems you're the unlucky dude while I am the lucky

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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 19, 2007 05:04 PM

I once counted the Lucky strikes in a long combat. I was actually mad because he seemed to get Luck all the time even though he should have only 50% change for it with his 5 Luck. But no, surprisingly it added around 50%. So from this one experience I can say it is close to 10% (which is too much)

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pomo
pomo


Famous Hero
The lone peasant
posted February 20, 2007 01:55 AM

Yes 10% luck is a bit too much I agree. Compare expert luck (effectively a 30% damage boost - 3 times out of 10 * 100%) to expert attack (a 15% damage boost).

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted February 20, 2007 01:58 AM

I prefer this risk but a luck roll may happen when you have 1 peasant or lots of marksmen. It's not as sure as attack. Sfidanza also mentioned that exp attack is 20% even though ingame it sais 15%.
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A sea without waves is no longer a sea. It's a pond.

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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 20, 2007 02:05 AM
Edited by Shauku83 at 02:06, 20 Feb 2007.

Yeah, but Attack is reliable and Luck is unreliable. Therefore it is not that unbalanced, if luck was only 30%. But you can get it to 50%...

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pomo
pomo


Famous Hero
The lone peasant
posted February 20, 2007 02:33 AM
Edited by pomo at 02:34, 20 Feb 2007.

True, attack is more reliable so that's certainly worth something - but on average two times more effective seems a little bit too much to me. I suppose 1.5 times isn't that bad if the 20% thing is true.  

Also I don't think that the luck artifacts are useful for comparison between luck and attack, as you can have + attack skill artifacts too, which are basically the same thing. + Luck temporary modifiers are available to everyone.

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted February 20, 2007 09:48 AM

You know that attack applies only to melee attacks, do you? while luck affects all attacks

I'd like to see luck's damage decreased a bit

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted February 20, 2007 10:44 AM

Luck also has a 'ballistics' role for seiges And works amazingly well with a (triple) ballista. Yep it's a bit too powerful.
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A sea without waves is no longer a sea. It's a pond.

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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 20, 2007 10:52 AM

Quote:
You know that attack applies only to melee attacks, do you? while luck affects all attacks

I'd like to see luck's damage decreased a bit


Yep, you are right. But... look at those abilities under Attack and under Luck. Attack has a much better selection of abilities.
Like Enlightenment. The Skill itself is awesome, but the abilities suck.


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pomo
pomo


Famous Hero
The lone peasant
posted February 20, 2007 11:59 AM

well then, luck just rocks my socks!!! I don't think by comparison there's generally very much reason to take attack then if it's a choice between the two, would you agree?

Luck's abilities also aren't SO bad... soldiers luck with nightmares is pretty cool and depending on your opponent magic resistance might be ok too. Tactics and archery seem pretty decent though - battle frenzy kinda lost it's main reason for being with the loss of enormous numbers of skellie archers imo, although it's still not too bad.

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted February 20, 2007 12:15 PM

Quote:
Luck is unreliable

Ok, Luck is unpredictable but this is not an advantage nor a disadvantage. You can have luck triggered on 1 Peasant, but as well you can have it trigger on 100 Black Dragons.

Tell me what's better here: (luck triggers normally, 30%)
+100% dmg to 100 Black Dragons
+0% dmg to 1 Peasant
+0% dmg to 1 Archer
...

or (attack)
+20% dmg to Black Dragons
+20% dmg to 1 Peasant
+20% dmg to 1 Archer
...

As you see, the Luck thing about being unreliable is not a disadvantage as you believed. So yeah, Luck is more overpowered than Attack even if Attack would be on all attacks.

I'd like to see Luck's damage reduced to, say, 66% instead of 100%. What do you think?

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted February 20, 2007 12:20 PM

Actually, to take into account the 30 % chance, that would be:

Luck triggers normally, 30%
+30% dmg to 100 Black Dragons
+30% dmg to 1 Peasant
+30% dmg to 1 Archer
(however, numbers distributed as +100 % damage on 30 % of attacks).
...

or (attack)
+20% dmg to Black Dragons
+20% dmg to 1 Peasant
+20% dmg to 1 Archer
(numbers distributed as +20 % damage on 100 % of attacks).
...

So yes, Luck is better when considered over the long run (gives most damage increase), but sometimes you might get 0 % increase where you could seriously need that extra damage.
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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted February 20, 2007 12:39 PM
Edited by ZombieLord at 12:42, 20 Feb 2007.

No. I was talking about having Luck on Black Dragons and not on the other units. Luck may be unreliable, but can also be a big surprize. I mean, you complain about having Luck on a Peasant, but you can also have luck on 100 Black Dragons. If attack was to give +30% on all attacks it would have been as strong (overpowered) as luck.

Luck should do 66% extra damage so that it won't be so unpredictable (triggering on a Peasant or on 100 Black Dragons with HIGH effect). DO NOT lower the chances.

But you're right Alc, that would be the 'average' of luck. That's what I was trying to tell. Luck being unreliable is NOT a disadvantage nor an advantage. So the 'average' luck posted by Alc is a good example of Luck's power.

Quote:
So yes, Luck is better when considered over the long run (gives most damage increase), but sometimes you might get 0 % increase where you could seriously need that extra damage.

But you can also have Lucky strikes on all attacks and devastate the opponent

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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 20, 2007 12:57 PM

I do not agree, that it is not a disadvantage that you do not know when you are going to get that extra damage and when not.
However I agree that lowering the damage percentage is one solution. I personally would want the fixed damage of the creature to be added without attack or skill bonuses (but damage cannot be more than double in case a level 1 creature gets lucky). It would take the pressure from the higher tier creatures, making their attacks not that gamebraking, like a beginning of combat with Emerald Dragons having luck. But lower level creatures would have the double nearly always... is that too many skills favouring low level creatures? Dunno. It is just a suggestion.


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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted February 20, 2007 01:14 PM

You are probably right. Haven may have exp attack, retribution and archery. That's +45% for melee and ranged units and paladins also have charge. Now double that and you see one-hit kills...
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted February 20, 2007 01:39 PM

I think one of the problems with balancing the Luck chances are that the Luck skill itself gives a +1 - +3 modifier, where the actually scale goes up to +5.

With the 10 % chance per point, a Hero with +5 Luck will be doing way too much extra damage (especially if he's Ranger with Elven Luck ).

On the other hand, lowering the percentage step to say, 5 %, will make the Luck skill pretty worthless, because Expert Luck will only make a 15 % chance of good luck, which isn't enough to make it attractive.

It's also not a solution to limit the bonus to +3 (as in H3) because that makes the skill less attractive because you'll fairly easily achieve at least a +2 bonus through artifacts.

Maybe something like an 7.5 % or 8 % step would work better. Then Expert luck would give you 22.5 % or 24 % chance of a lucky hit, whereas maximum would be either 37.5 % or 40 %. At least that's better than 50 %, and something between 20 % and 25 % is still fairly attractive for taking the skill.

Alternatively, one could of course change the damage bonus. I didn't like the approach of making Lucky attacks do maximum damage, because mass Divine Strength then will rended Luck obsolete. I think Shauku's suggestion about letting Luck apply only to the basa damage rating might work, though I would like to see some numbers on how this would work (could you do a couple of calculations with explanations for, say, Peasant, Vampire Lord and Emerald Dragon to show the impact of this change?).
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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 20, 2007 02:22 PM

A weekly population of Peasants (49), attacking a stack with defence of 10. Damage done 33, with luck it is 66.
A weekly population of Vampire Lords (10) attacking a stack with defence of 10. Average damage done 85, with luck it is 170.
A weekly population of Emeralds (2) attacking a stack with defence of 10. Average damage done 184, with luck 274 damage (instead of 368)

The Luck would increase Emeralds damage by 50% in this case.
And lets add a bigger stack of Paladins with Retribution (+4 Morale), Expert Attack and full jousting bonus.
10 Paladins attacking a stack with defence 10. Average damage done = 856, With luck 1106 (instead of 1712)
The Luck bonus for Paladins would be 30%, I guess the bonus won’t go much lower from that.

Anyways, the damage bonus would always be double in the case when the fixed damage is already lowered by opponents defense (Peasants, Vampires) so a maximum is still 100%. But will have a reduced effect when the attack is higher.

Luck will still be valuable for high attack factions, because even an increase of 50% with their high damage will be devastating. But I am not sure if Sylvan still stays as a winner, as a defensive faction they would gain the most of Luck. Nevertheless, they wouldn't be able to use Attack+Luck as a deadly combination like before, as they wont stack.


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Plexus22
Plexus22


Known Hero
posted March 19, 2007 03:27 AM

Quote:

I hope you are still around. I have tried your strategy and I found that MMR with wizard is easier than any other fraction (much easier than knight ). Actually, I usually use necromancer for MMR. His spell power is good but he has the problem of low mana. Anyway, I have a question about wizard's MMR. You said that the only way to counter MMR is to rush within first two week and I am facing this problem. What will you do? When I play necromancer MMR, this problem does not occur because I am collecting skeleton archer while I am creeping. But for wizard, the army is very weak and during the first two week the powerful spell is not ready yet.



Why would you want to use MMR with any other faction other than Academy? Thats the point with MMR is that it is a strategy that works well with wizards because of their attributes. Every other faction relies too heavily on their troops to go for a strategy that does not emphasize maximizing troop numbers and strength. Other factions also dont get the magic selection and dont have enough spell points to make MMR effective. I'm not trying to bash your idea I'm just confused about why you would seriously try to apply MMR to other factions.....it doesn't seem practical.

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted March 19, 2007 07:44 AM

actually I lost against a necro , who played something like MMR... He was Nadir(Manes guy) , and since necro gets Mark of the Necromancer now, he had mana to support his spells... Having Summoning and Dark spells as native seems alot better to me than having Summoning + Light Spells.
Worst spell combination you can get is Arcane Armor + Curse Of The NetherWorlds + Summon Elemental + Blind ... which can have better results than the worst Light combo.
Also getting free troops while you build the spells in town is very good.


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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted March 19, 2007 09:29 AM

Quote:
A weekly population of Peasants (49), attacking a stack with defence of 10. Damage done 33, with luck it is 66.
A weekly population of Vampire Lords (10) attacking a stack with defence of 10. Average damage done 85, with luck it is 170.
A weekly population of Emeralds (2) attacking a stack with defence of 10. Average damage done 184, with luck 274 damage (instead of 368)

The Luck would increase Emeralds damage by 50% in this case.
And lets add a bigger stack of Paladins with Retribution (+4 Morale), Expert Attack and full jousting bonus.
10 Paladins attacking a stack with defence 10. Average damage done = 856, With luck 1106 (instead of 1712)
The Luck bonus for Paladins would be 30%, I guess the bonus won’t go much lower from that.

Anyways, the damage bonus would always be double in the case when the fixed damage is already lowered by opponents defense (Peasants, Vampires) so a maximum is still 100%. But will have a reduced effect when the attack is higher.

Luck will still be valuable for high attack factions, because even an increase of 50% with their high damage will be devastating. But I am not sure if Sylvan still stays as a winner, as a defensive faction they would gain the most of Luck. Nevertheless, they wouldn't be able to use Attack+Luck as a deadly combination like before, as they wont stack.


I realize I never read this reply to my request, so never got the thing finished.

I think this is a very interesting suggestion, that would indeed seem to reduce the importance of Luck to some extent without making it completely useless, which I guess is what we want. I must admit, however, that I cannot understand the full impact of this right away.

My greatest feat would be, that with your new system, Luck would have greater importance on creatures with low Attack than on creatures with high Attack, i.e. would favor low-level units compared to high-level ones. Now I'm not sure we would want that, because high-tier creatures (at least level 7's) seem to have lost a lot of importance compared to other games, and maybe another nerfing is not what we're looking for. However, from a broader perspective, maybe what is needed is a slight tweaking of the level 7's to go with this (i.e. more HP).
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