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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Academy:The Best Race in HOMM5
Thread: Academy:The Best Race in HOMM5 This thread is 15 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 · «PREV / NEXT»
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted February 17, 2007 12:14 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 12:16, 17 Feb 2007.

I'd say the strategy is based on two things: Creating artificial tanks via summon elementals or, better, conjure phoenix, and blasting them to hell with wasp swarm (motwed) while phoenix deals with them. You can use other spells here, too (some destructive maybe, and other summoning), and sorcery is a MUST.

But hey, a properly developed warlock can kill things equally easy. Plus, he has those furies, so he doesn't need to waste mana on slow neutrals. And assassins/minotaurs as meatshields, which he doesn't need to care for (well, Minos ain't bad, but some sacrifice needs to be done anyway)

another good thing is adding shadow witches early.. that makes even quite tough neutrals to appear in one stack (dunno why, perhaps the witches have high powerlevel, or smth like that), and that's where your empowered lucky spells are enough to blast them away in one cast.

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zuraffo
zuraffo

Tavern Dweller
posted February 17, 2007 06:12 PM

Speaking about Warlock, there were discussion on the board a while ago about using eagle eye to learn dark spells from Witches so that some of the warlocks with dark magic openings can be justified. Apparently after testing eagle eye can't learn spells from friendlies. It wasn't clear whether it was intended but that idea was dropped.


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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 17, 2007 07:33 PM

Quote:
Speaking about Warlock, there were discussion on the board a while ago about using eagle eye to learn dark spells from Witches so that some of the warlocks with dark magic openings can be justified. Apparently after testing eagle eye can't learn spells from friendlies. It wasn't clear whether it was intended but that idea was dropped.




That is one of the most horrible changes they have made. It still works before HoF in version 1.41 which I play, and therefore Lethos is not that bad a choise. I cannot see the reasoning behind that change at all.

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supphanat
supphanat


Hired Hero
posted February 18, 2007 04:46 AM
Edited by supphanat at 05:33, 18 Feb 2007.

Quote:
I'd say the strategy is based on two things: Creating artificial tanks via summon elementals or, better, conjure phoenix, and blasting them to hell with wasp swarm (motwed) while phoenix deals with them. You can use other spells here, too (some destructive maybe, and other summoning), and sorcery is a MUST.

But hey, a properly developed warlock can kill things equally easy. Plus, he has those furies, so he doesn't need to waste mana on slow neutrals. And assassins/minotaurs as meatshields, which he doesn't need to care for (well, Minos ain't bad, but some sacrifice needs to be done anyway)

another good thing is adding shadow witches early.. that makes even quite tough neutrals to appear in one stack (dunno why, perhaps the witches have high powerlevel, or smth like that), and that's where your empowered lucky spells are enough to blast them away in one cast.


I have tested warlock too but I found that wizard is easier. Since wizard has motw, so he can strike two targets at the same time. But you are right using furies can help creeping a lot. I guess this is the design of the game. So wizard is more suitable for MMR strategy.

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supphanat
supphanat


Hired Hero
posted February 18, 2007 04:57 AM

Quote:
In the thread, vittorio rushed nur in the 2nd week, but nur got phoenix and won the game. So it is quite obvious that the only way is still magic(take havez for exception). The problem is also obvious. If you don't get good magics from the magic guild, you won't survive Besides, try to collect as many creatures as possible. Normally academy should have level1~4 units in the second week. Larger troops equals more hero actions. Finally, if you hate taking risks, use nathir or havez.


Umm the weak point of this strategy is the money and also the weak point of academy as well, I think. All academy creatues are too expensive and with this stragety, you have to spend all of the chests for experience. So you will be more likely to have insufficient money for recuiting your army. So I don't think changing the hero can solve the problem.

Actually, knight is not a problem. I found that the greatest enermy for this strategy is the necromancer because this fraction can collect troops very fast.


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supphanat
supphanat


Hired Hero
posted February 18, 2007 05:24 AM
Edited by supphanat at 05:32, 18 Feb 2007.

Quote:
Not common, I can tell you that. In H3 it was perfectly possible yet not in H5 and those that do it may get the wrong end of the stick more often than not. Especially without academy. Dungeon in all probability won't use a Multi Magic Rush because warlocks don't NEED to take more than destructive. Fast creeping and mage guild building is but a part of MMR..


Well I did not read it properly. So MMR is Multiple Magic Rush. Actually, my strategy is a little different. My stragegy is hero based strategy. Maybe I should call it HBS As I mentioned before somewhere, this strategy can be used even for knight but for knight, I would go for war machine with combination of light and dark magic. So war machine can help knight for creeping and solve the problem of knight lacking mana. I agree that for warlock, I will use only destructive for creeping.

In HOMM3, magic based hero is the strongest which is quite obvious. I have tried this even with human opponent. However, in HOMM5, I also notice that the design is changed. The creator want to have creatue based game more than hero based game. I have tested this and I still found that hero based strategy is still the best with AI player but I have never tested with human player before. If you can remember, I have ask this question before.

Quote:

Actually not weak. Because in week 1,2 a wizard has motw+eldritch arrow(most possibly) and a lvl advantage. Even in a small, none can gain an overpowering army to take him down easily unless he has already exhausted his mana. By end of week 2 he should have mage guild 4 and access to fire wall or summon elementals for sure, possibly some good dark/destructive spells.
Some time after mage guild 4 is built there is a risk however because if you got the bad combination iot will may take another week until you get library. Or he was unlucky not to get the schools he wanted early. That's when I feel a wizard is vulnerable.


I think only necromancer can do this but I don't know there might be any other fraction can do this. On the first 2 week, good necromancer can gather around 1-200 skeleton archers or more. I have faced this myself so I wrote this question.

By the way, do you think fire wall is good? On the first two week, my eldrich arrow+motw is still better than fire wall. So this spell is still useless at that time (at that time, my Nur spell power is only 7, level 13).

According to your answer, this strategy is not really the best because it still depends on luck. If the wizard cannot get the magic that he wants in time (I agree that with library, he should gain a good magic eventually), he can be dead by rush from the enermy.
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Pomo
Pomo


Famous Hero
The lone peasant
posted February 18, 2007 07:50 AM

Um, sorry to tell you but no serious multiplayer H3er will say that magic heroes are stronger than might heroes. Your spellpower just doesn't scale with the size of your army in the same way that attack and defence do. Might heroes could just as easily take mass haste/slow/bless as you don't need high spell power for that, and the effect with a few weeks army is MUCH greater than casting lightning bolt or even implosion.

The same thing applies in H5, although now not every faction has a might hero to choose
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hydroman
hydroman

Tavern Dweller
posted February 18, 2007 09:55 AM

That is unfortunately too true. Not only does att/def scale very well over time, but mass light magic buffs are dirt cheap, quick to apply on everything, and scale incredibly well also. Destructive and summoning don't compare, and dark falls behind also (maybe if you don't have access to cleansing - which also happens to be in light magic - you might have problems).

Light magic in general feels way imbalanced; cheap spells with very powerful mass effects, resurrection, and magical immunity :\ The only saving grace for the other spell classes is that they make early creeping easier.
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supphanat
supphanat


Hired Hero
posted February 18, 2007 11:12 AM

Quote:
Um, sorry to tell you but no serious multiplayer H3er will say that magic heroes are stronger than might heroes. Your spellpower just doesn't scale with the size of your army in the same way that attack and defence do. Might heroes could just as easily take mass haste/slow/bless as you don't need high spell power for that, and the effect with a few weeks army is MUCH greater than casting lightning bolt or even implosion.

The same thing applies in H5, although now not every faction has a might hero to choose


I did not say that magic based hero has to use only destructive magic like implosion. Actually, I have to say that HOMM5 has a very good design. The design trend to be more creature based game than HOMM3. However, according to my test with AI player, magic based hero still rule the game but maybe you are right, this might not work with human player. However, I am sure that this strategy can still make you creep faster which can take you some advantage over other player.


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supphanat
supphanat


Hired Hero
posted February 18, 2007 11:25 AM

Quote:
That is unfortunately too true. Not only does att/def scale very well over time, but mass light magic buffs are dirt cheap, quick to apply on everything, and scale incredibly well also. Destructive and summoning don't compare, and dark falls behind also (maybe if you don't have access to cleansing - which also happens to be in light magic - you might have problems)..


I agree that att/def can give you advantage over time but how about rush? The cheap mana of mass buff and debuff spells are the good design. This allows not only wizard or dungeon to be magic master but knight can be a magic master with light and dark magic. Again, when I say magic, I did not mean destructive and summon magic.

Quote:
Light magic in general feels way imbalanced; cheap spells with very powerful mass effects, resurrection, and magical immunity :\ The only saving grace for the other spell classes is that they make early creeping easier.


You are right. Light magic is very strong but only with enough large army. Other magic allows you to attack with lower troops which makes easier for creeping. But I think this is balance. So you cannot stick with only one magic school, you have to weight and plan twice for your strategy.



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zuraffo
zuraffo

Tavern Dweller
posted February 18, 2007 12:29 PM

The effectiveness of Light/Dark magic actually works in the advantage of Wizards. In long game, it was agreed (in the chinese forum) that the best choice of spells for the wizards are light/dark with light/dark suppression. That will mean the opponent heroes need 20 mana just for a mass cleansing. How many 20 manas can a knight, for exp, afford?

Another note: Summoning spell damage depends largely on the level of summoning magic, in case some posters did not know it.


Quote:
That is unfortunately too true. Not only does att/def scale very well over time, but mass light magic buffs are dirt cheap, quick to apply on everything, and scale incredibly well also. Destructive and summoning don't compare, and dark falls behind also (maybe if you don't have access to cleansing - which also happens to be in light magic - you might have problems).

Light magic in general feels way imbalanced; cheap spells with very powerful mass effects, resurrection, and magical immunity :\ The only saving grace for the other spell classes is that they make early creeping easier.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted February 18, 2007 01:20 PM

Quote:

By the way, do you think fire wall is good? On the first two week, my eldrich arrow+motw is still better than fire wall. So this spell is still useless at that time (at that time, my Nur spell power is only 7, level 13).



Not really. This can work wonders against shooters(mostly for AI which will leave them rooted in position), units that are in the same line for 3 tiles and finally for large creatures. IF you place firewall on their front, when they attempt to move ahead they'll be hurt a second time.
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hydroman
hydroman

Tavern Dweller
posted February 18, 2007 07:56 PM

Quote:
The effectiveness of Light/Dark magic actually works in the advantage of Wizards. In long game, it was agreed (in the chinese forum) that the best choice of spells for the wizards are light/dark with light/dark suppression. That will mean the opponent heroes need 20 mana just for a mass cleansing. How many 20 manas can a knight, for exp, afford?


Well in terms of light magic, the might and the magic heroes are more or less on the same level, so it comes down to dark magic vs. the att/def bonuses of might heroes. 20 mana is steep, but the two main might factions (haven & sylvan) have high initiative cleansing units, which makes up for that. Plus there are abilities/arties that help vs. spells, while it is a bit hard to avoid direct damage, and there's always the randomness of the mage guilds. I'd say might heroes still have the edge.
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86wyp
86wyp


Adventuring Hero
posted February 18, 2007 10:09 PM

Quote:

If he was a Chinese he shouldn't have "Charlie_Falcon" as his email. Those drunk bastards at Oxford...


Don't know much about England people, but seldom do Chinese use their names on their email addresses.For me, I have 5+ email addresses and for each of them I use a different name. Actually I do have an English name but it is not Charlie Falcon.

If there is anything you don't understand, you can ask. If you choose not to believe what others believe, that's your right. If you have good counters or better strategies, please post them and I thank you.

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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 18, 2007 10:49 PM

You shouldn't pay much attention to him. He has several warnings already of bad behaviour... You are just one of the persons he is attacking. And in case you wondered why that behaviour seems familiar, he also worked under a nick of Archmage_Faiz.

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86wyp
86wyp


Adventuring Hero
posted February 18, 2007 11:00 PM

Quote:

I think only necromancer can do this but I don't know there might be any other fraction can do this. On the first 2 week, good necromancer can gather around 1-200 skeleton archers or more. I have faced this myself so I wrote this question.

According to your answer, this strategy is not really the best because it still depends on luck. If the wizard cannot get the magic that he wants in time (I agree that with library, he should gain a good magic eventually), he can be dead by rush from the enermy.


Necromancers have their own problems. If they don't have necromancy, skeli archers and zombies sucks, gremlins and gargoyles are way better. Necropolis buildings require a huge amount of ore and mercury. In heroic level, if they choose to build magic guild first, one or more high level troops will become unavailable unless they can find more than one ore mine. Many other factions like haven and sylvan have the similar problem while academy doesn't. Necromancers are unlikely to learn light magic and they can't learn high level light and destructive magics from their magic guild. If they choose to learn only summonning and dark, that's fine, but this combination is not as powerful as light+summonning or light+dark. For example, light+dark can counter summonning+dark very well. Without miniartis and magical immunity, Necropolis troops are somewhat weak against destructive magics, if dungeon or academy get good destructive magics and rush necropolis, those archers and zombies won't survive long. Necromancers MUST have spirit link to use their magics, and if they aren't lucky to get it early, they can't creep fast in the first week,(kaspar is an exception) and if that happened, they are vulnerable against rush in the following week.

But still, to defend a fast rush, necropolis is better than academy.

Everyone need luck in this game. But basically every spell is useful, even all 5th level spells are. You just need to make good use of them.

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86wyp
86wyp


Adventuring Hero
posted February 18, 2007 11:05 PM

Quote:
You shouldn't pay much attention to him. He has several warnings already of bad behaviour... You are just one of the persons he is attacking. And in case you wondered why that behaviour seems familiar, he also worked under a nick of Archmage_Faiz.


I do wonders that

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supphanat
supphanat


Hired Hero
posted February 18, 2007 11:22 PM

Quote:

Everyone need luck in this game. But basically every spell is useful, even all 5th level spells are. You just need to make good use of them.


Umm it seems to be that no matter what strategy we are using, luck is very important. Maybe we should have some discussion about how to optimize luck in the game


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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted February 18, 2007 11:30 PM

Things are pretty simple: Academy requires fewer coincidences to make MMR work! Less luck involved than with others.
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supphanat
supphanat


Hired Hero
posted February 18, 2007 11:38 PM

Quote:
Things are pretty simple: Academy requires fewer coincidences to make MMR work! Less luck involved than with others.


That is true. I think the only requirement for academy for this strategy is hopefully that you are not rushed in the first two week.


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