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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Academy:The Best Race in HOMM5
Thread: Academy:The Best Race in HOMM5 This thread is 15 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 · «PREV / NEXT»
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted November 29, 2006 01:19 PM

lol. Yes, we've forgot the most obvious spell here Antimagic+marksmen, so obvious

can antimagic be cleansed?

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VokialBG
VokialBG


Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
posted November 29, 2006 02:42 PM
Edited by VokialBG at 14:44, 29 Nov 2006.

Quote:
lol. Yes, we've forgot the most obvious spell here Antimagic+marksmen, so obvious

can antimagic be cleansed?



Well Cleansing is Level 2 magic, so antimagic can't be stoped!


Quote:
Quote:
Man, you guys are creazy, the race isn't only the hero, maybe the wizards are  good heroes, but the academy creatures are not good, I leave the topic, I can't dispute more with you guys, you are creazy academy fans! Everything is just strategy, if you are good players you will be able to win, even with the drawen!


Nothing crazy. And plz post the map you've played.

The big problem is:if it's d3w6, why academy's army so small? The haven army is ok--really strong. But if I use academy, 1st I won't wait until you fully developed, 2nd, there will be 200+ Master Gremlins, 100+ Obsidian Gargoyle at least, and 5 Rakshasa Rani?

No, I'm not crazy, but there is something wrong.



Heve a look on the 2 of the weeks in my Vittorio game:

Week 3 (or 4, I can't remember) - Week of Disease
Week 6 - Week of Plague


Quote:
  Hi , 86wyp ! I'm glad to see that there are players in the World who use their mind , not a stupid might-is-right strategy . I can agree that Academy is a serious opponent to Dungeon , but I also can't understand one thing in your first example , preciously saying WHY Yrwanna wast three level ( at least ) for useless Summoning magic , I'm confused . Where was her warlocks luck , where is her Expert sorcery and why she had those pitiful 37 minotaurs and didn't split her Grand Matrones in 3 stacks ( big one + 1 + 1 )? Those two sole Ladies are very important , they can negate Counterspell , the most hellish wizards ability for the warlock ! Also Yrwanna's player wasn't wise if he/she used single-targeted spells , its could be affected by magic mirror and reflected to Yrwanna's own troops . Only Emprowed meteor shower ( if it's absent , cold ring or fireball ) , hopely with a luck , is what Yrwanna should cast against Jhora .
  You shouldn't think that your strategy is poor , but in case with Yrwanna I'm sure that I could play better . However you had dealt nice job and include a fresh spray in Heroes world


The "stupid might" isn't right strategy, but the "stupid might" + some Light magic + Luck and Moral are the right strategy here. And Have a look on the artifacts of Jhora, the most of them are anti-magic...


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Istari
Istari


Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
posted November 29, 2006 05:45 PM

Dragageddon and mindliess high warlock spellpower + destructive magic has dominated this game for too long.  There is nothing simple about might done right and I'm glad it is finally competitive.  
____________
Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted November 29, 2006 08:52 PM

look at my kaspar pics ...

week 1 , day 7

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/8161/3988/1600/875591/kaspar%20at%20the%20end%20of%20first%20week.jpg

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/8161/3988/1600/175857/kaspar%27s%20troops%20at%20the%20end%20of%20first%20week.jpg

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/8161/3988/1600/331795/kaspar%27s%20abilities%20at%20the%20end%20of%20first%20week.jpg


end week 2 , day 2 ... kaspar is ready to defeat the enemy !

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/8161/3988/1600/108525/kaspar%20at%20the%20gates%20of%20the%20opponent%20week%202%20day%202%20%21.jpg

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Greb
Greb

Tavern Dweller
posted December 04, 2006 01:03 AM
Edited by Greb at 01:04, 04 Dec 2006.

Quote:
If nothing else, the game has to be altered in some way because the unicorn horn bow is from the campaigns and it's in one scenario.  It is NOT available on the map mystic's vale.


Having read this thread yesterday, I decided to take use academy in the Mystic's Vale to see what the fuss was about. The MMR strategy appears sound during the first few weeks but I ran into a couple of 500 exp chests and swapped back to gold on those. Nevertheless, level 15 in week 5 was attained, along with advanced in enlightenment and sorcery, expert in summoning and dark with the level 5 mage's guild (which contained Phantom Forces and Summon Elementals, but not Conjure Phoenix). Hitting the artifact wagon in the NW corner of the map, I discovered the Unicorn Horn Bow for 15k was waiting. So it is available on this map - perhaps HoF opened this option.

I'd say that the originator of the thread is correct in believing that the best tactic to win with academy is this one. Due to building the magic guild and library early, the ability to choose your 2nd and 3rd school after summoning is still feasible. In my game I got both dark spells at 1st and 2nd level so it made taking dark magic relatively easy.

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PhoenixReborn
PhoenixReborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted December 04, 2006 05:23 PM

Alright Greb, thanks for the clarification.  I guess the bow is available now.

Generally speaking it seems like a lot of the advantages people can get in heroes v come from exploiting poor tactical combat a.i. of neutrals.

For example, you might be fighting a stack of 100 squires.  If you split two or three individual gargoyles the squires will chase them around instead of walking directly towards the massed shooting troops and inflicting casualties.

Note that any faction can take advatage of this.
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Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.

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faffol
faffol

Tavern Dweller
posted December 05, 2006 12:41 AM

yep like fortress with skirmishs and ammo cart berserkers and black bears can do nice ownage to neutrals
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Golemcrafter
Golemcrafter


Promising
Famous Hero
Unlimited Fantasy Master
posted December 06, 2006 02:23 PM

I just want to say that since one week I donīt play with Academy anymore. The creatures are weak especially the Djinn Sultan. As comment there are almost everywhere that creatures in Avademy are the weakest or they are just weak or they deal the second most average damage and so on...

Artificer ability is good but the cratures artifacts are extremly expensive. Iīm sorry about that...
____________
"Golemcrafter's creativity is
astaunding.[...]It must be
recognized that his mind was
able to picture every single
detail of his faction
accurately, something most of
us would be unable ... too long to display...

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baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted January 07, 2007 01:20 PM

I don't understand how people can play like robots, always building this first or recruiting only that and not something else, using same heroes etc... That ruins the game experience to me. I like to try different strategies each time, to screw around a little, not just work to defeat the other one. What's the point of gaming if you already know what you're going to do?
None of the towns is the strongest. Some are good in small maps, some in big ones, but nothing's too unbalanced if you play naturally and not simply abuse the game (by that I mean find out the strongest tactic, usually by browsing forums, and use it over and over and over again).

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted January 07, 2007 01:24 PM

Quote:
I don't understand how people can play like robots, always building this first or recruiting only that and not something else, using same heroes etc... That ruins the game experience to me. I like to try different strategies each time, to screw around a little, not just work to defeat the other one. What's the point of gaming if you already know what you're going to do?
None of the towns is the strongest. Some are good in small maps, some in big ones, but nothing's too unbalanced if you play naturally and not simply abuse the game (by that I mean find out the strongest tactic, usually by browsing forums, and use it over and over and over again).


I completely agree with you. That's why I always play with a different hero than the last one

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Archmage_Faiz
Archmage_Faiz


Disgraceful
Hired Hero
posted January 07, 2007 01:25 PM

Quote:
I don't understand how people can play like robots, always building this first or recruiting only that and not something else, using same heroes etc... That ruins the game experience to me. I like to try different strategies each time, to screw around a little, not just work to defeat the other one. What's the point of gaming if you already know what you're going to do?
None of the towns is the strongest. Some are good in small maps, some in big ones, but nothing's too unbalanced if you play naturally and not simply abuse the game (by that I mean find out the strongest tactic, usually by browsing forums, and use it over and over and over again).
True. But remember that that chinese guy is probably joking (it imposible to get such an army when takng experience from chests). He have probably used cheats and is playing on single player on Easy difficulty (explaining why the others ply like idiots).
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"For those who live in the past, there is no future."

/King Darios of Persia

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted January 07, 2007 01:29 PM

maybe he doesn't build the capitol, to save money in the earlygame but be ruined later. But what am I talking? yeah, I think it's impossible, even without it.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 07, 2007 01:34 PM

Quote:
I don't understand how people can play like robots, always building this first or recruiting only that and not something else, using same heroes etc... That ruins the game experience to me. I like to try different strategies each time, to screw around a little, not just work to defeat the other one. What's the point of gaming if you already know what you're going to do?
None of the towns is the strongest. Some are good in small maps, some in big ones, but nothing's too unbalanced if you play naturally and not simply abuse the game (by that I mean find out the strongest tactic, usually by browsing forums, and use it over and over and over again).


Ohh, I'd love to play different strats with some castles! But for, say, inferno, you have to do some things in order to advance. Like get mines early. That's why deleb seems the only good choice.

When playing necropolis, though, I don't care what hero I choose that much. I play zoltan vs. haven and sylvan, but the rest depends on my mood.

I'd like to see haven players not using dougal abuse, but it's not likely. Sadly.

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted January 07, 2007 02:51 PM

Dougal abuse? Do you really think that's a good "abuse" anyway? At least once look at the stats, find out why marksmen are same a "ranged horned overseers" with no range penalty

Besides, without Squires, they're totally owned!

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 07, 2007 03:04 PM

they have 2-8 damage, not 1-4, you've made a mistake, TheDeath

Besides, if counting the ATT bonus from dougal, the ATT bonus from knight and the ATT bonus from light magic, they suddenly appear as units having the attack of black dragons, while being extrmely numerous. Think about it. And you can't really come close, since precise shot makes them OHKO even big stacks of magma dragons. Thanks to the squires, you can't really kill them in ranged combat _only_, since they will probably do 3-4 times more damage than all your shooter stacks in total. So, you just HAVE to charge, and that's when their precise shot triggers.

Deflect missle can be cleansed, you know. Paladins splitted to several stacks can completely nullify dark magic. For stunning or slowing, there are inquisitors (assuming the hero doesn't have mass haste spell) and divine guidance. As you see, most counters fail, and for the better ones, you don't really have time, since after capturing second castle, the marksmen growth is 100 per week.

I'm tired of writing it every time, but I guess it's necessary, bcuz people still tend to underestimate it ;p

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted January 07, 2007 04:54 PM

Well they do 1-4 damage at "range penalty", that's why I said that lol

In fact, Dougal at level 15 adds only +8 attack/defense for marksmen. This means a total of 12 attack.. Black Dragons have 30 though. And any hero leading Black Dragons (including Knights) adds to them.. As far as I know, Dougal is not the only Knight.

Also, you can "charge" directly on marksmen if they are not protected. And protected means either by Paladins or by other creatures -- as you see, that's why Squires and Paladins do most of the job, not marksmen -- just try to have ONLY marksmen in your army

Plus that's why I don't see why Dougal is strong -- as I said, at level 15 it means only +8 attack and defense.. And I don't recall "Light magic" like Righteous Might being only available to Dougal anyway...

Paladins dispel dark magic, but so does dark magic dispel light magic (cast Suffering on Righteous Might, or Weakness on Divine Strength). I hope you get the point.

One of my other battles, in a long FFA game, I had 15 Black dragons -- I don't think if you believe me, but they killed 300 marksmen in one shot.. and the costs of marksmen aren't REALLY far from the black dragons (training is quite expensive).

Deflect Missile can be cleansed, but can also be cast back. Also remember Light magic can be dispelled easily with counters in Dark magic.

I understand 600 marksmen are tough, but if you look at their costs you'll realize they are a hell lot expensive. Training 600 Horned Overseers will be almost the same, and much cheaper. But training is only available to Haven, so... guess what? you can't do this with Inferno (and training is not available only to Dougal btw)

In summary, dougal adds only 8 attack at level 16. That's what he does beside the other Knights. All other bonuses are not Dougal-only.

Quote:
since after capturing second castle, the marksmen growth is 100 per week.
Huh? What second castle?
anyway, isn't that you hate the growth system too, because you need another castle to have "decent" growth for marksmen? so it seems I'm not the only one with this "problem"... (btw: 100 marksmen cost 8000 gold, that's less than two Arch Devils.. with training this is more of course.. what I want to say is that the growth for low-level creatures is too.. well LOW)

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 07, 2007 05:23 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 17:27, 07 Jan 2007.

My answer is "no" ;p You just don't understand how helpless you feel when 600 marksmen appear next to your castle in month 2, week 2, when you have not that much to counter it, perhaps not even a fully built castle or guilds. I guess you'd know how little can be done against perfectly played dougal abuse if you played against a good haven opponent. And +8 isn't "little bonus", it doubles their attack and defense. Who cares that "other" factions can have attack specializations or access to light magic? Only haven has ATT, creature specialist, easy way to boost numbers AND light magic at ONCE, plus skills like divine guidance and great support units aswell. Therafore it's the only castle which can launch such offensive. No, horned overseer specialist couldn't produce the same effect, horned overseers don't have piercing shot. ;p By the way, to get 15 blacks on hard (not mentioning the heroic), you'd need like two crystal & sulfur mines and at least 12 weeks (assuming you'd want guilds and other buildings too), while marksmen abuse happens fast and it's not dependant on the map's wealth. Second castle is a must though. That's one of the reasons I like peninsula: no second castles, no 100 marksmen per week.

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sq79
sq79


Famous Hero
posted January 08, 2007 07:05 AM

Lately in a game i attacked an academy castle in week 5 in a toh game with haven victorio... built only level 1-5 for 2 castles... and i still can't see how academy has a chance that game.. even with full artifacts. Bring lots of griffins, divide it into 3 stacks and dive them to death Even titans are too easy to kill to be frank when u see an academy hero's low att/def
If the inquisitors has any turns to cast haste on the griffins, the outcome is even worst

In another game, was sylvan versus academy ... This was a cruel battle .. Was a mega battle of 25 titans versus 25 emerald dragons etc in week 6 on map of 3 towns each and with tactics and wind strider boots... emearald dragons, war dancers and sprites all charged forward since u will need knowledge of 40 to react first...
And troop losses was 60-70% before the first academy troop got its turn ...
So i can't see how the hero even with ultimate skill can do anything about it
All this lead me to believe....Academy is good with havez in week 1-3, after that it's one of the weakest faction as time goes by and normally only good against dungeon



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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted January 08, 2007 12:51 PM

What second castle?!? Except Subterranean treasures, I don't recall any map with second or THIRD castles.

anyway, I think theDeath was refering to 'range penalty' (correct me if I'm wrong). That means only half the damage and no 'piercing strike'

600 Marksmen and you're hopeless? First, the castle walls protect your creatures from enemy ranged attackers and reduces their damage by half. That means only 0.5-2 damage for Marksmen!!! Second, do you really realize how much the Marksmen really cost? Let's make it mathematical: without two castles, you have 49 Peasants and 24 Marksmen per week maximum. That means 73 Marksmen per week. In six months, you'll have 73*6=438. Where's the 600 Marksmen? (okay, there's the starting army of your heroes, but it's compensated by having the double growth (castle) only from week 3 onwards at least, as you don't have enough town points to build it the first week)
Now let's go to the costs. Let's start with the peasants: they cost 49*6=294*20=5880 gold. With Expert Trainer and Hall of Heroes, the training from peasant to archer costs 81 Gold, that means to train 49*6=294 peasants into archers costs 23814. To upgrade them into marksmen costs another 20*294=5880 gold. And to train your 'normal' marksmen costs 24*6=144*80=11520, which gives us the total cost of 5880+23814+5880+11520=47094 gold!!! That's with 16000 more than a week of all upgraded creatures and there are only 438 Marksmen, not 600!

+8 attack isn't that much (+40% more damage) so Dougal is not that apocalyptic

But I think Dougal is better than the others because he starts out only with archers and not peasants (which are useless at creeping). Still, with Haven's low initiative, I can't see how this faction can beat ranged neutrals without losses though. (sure, the Battle Dive can be an option, but it has two problems: first, after the griffin is back on the battlefield, the neutrals can attack and sometimes resulting in losses, and second, you have to make Imperial Griffins (upgraded)) But starting only with archers means less marksmen later 'cause the peasants are much more numerous.

The conclusion: if you think you're hopeless when 600 (in fact 438) marksmen come to your castle, you're hopeless not because it's Dougal, but because there are hundreds of marksmen. I don't recall Dougal increases the weekly growth of marksmen, so you can make 438 Marksmen with any other hero. And Light Magic is available to other heroes too

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted January 08, 2007 01:04 PM
Edited by TheDeath at 14:05, 08 Jan 2007.

Quote:
anyway, I think theDeath was refering to 'range penalty' (correct me if I'm wrong). That means only half the damage and no 'piercing strike'
Yes you are correct
Quote:
By the way, to get 15 blacks on hard (not mentioning the heroic), you'd need like two crystal & sulfur mines and at least 12 weeks (assuming you'd want guilds and other buildings too)

Well it was possible since it was a LARGE map, with 4 FFA players on it, and it was Dragon Pass map, with 40 tier7s guarding the exit to your "land".. So until you beat those guards, you can't go out! I don't play "only" 1vs1 maps like Peninsula.

And don't get me wrong, I was not comparing Blackies to marksmen, I only said how "fragile" marksmen are if they are not trained, and that's a "Haven" specific thing, not "Dougal"

Quote:
Now let's go to the costs. Let's start with the peasants: they cost 49*6=294*20=5880 gold. With Expert Trainer and Hall of Heroes, the training from peasant to archer costs 81 Gold, that means to train 49*6=294 peasants into archers costs 23814. To upgrade them into marksmen costs another 20*294=5880 gold. And to train your 'normal' marksmen costs 24*6=144*80=11520, which gives us the total cost of 5880+23814+5880+11520=47094 gold!!! That's with 16000 more than a week of all upgraded creatures and there are only 438 Marksmen, not 600!
You scary me out with those calculations, but I know you're right since math is math, exact and is what computers are based on

Quote:
+8 attack isn't that much (+40% more damage) so Dougal is not that apocalyptic
That's exactly what I was trying to say to Doomforge. The "hopeless" part does not come from "Dougal" and his abusing, but rather from the "marksmen" abusing, and the Knight hero (whoever he/she is).

The whole point of my story was that:

1) Light magic, available to ALL KNIGHT HEROES
2) Abilities & Skills regarding to marksmen = available to ALL KNIGHT HEROES
3) +8 attack to marksmen via racial = available ONLY to Dougal.

Also, 47094 gold (438 marksmen) mean 10 ARCH DEVILS!! Remember that before saying "marksmen are overpowered" as 10 arch devils really torn you apart early game

Aw, I forgot: Only Haven has the possibility of "training".. Yes, that's "Haven", not "Dougal".. Training peasants into marksmen is not "Dougal-specific" too.

In short, it sounds more like "Haven's training abusers", or "marksmen abusers", NOT "Dougal abusers"... the only thing that Dougal does besides the others is a +8 attack at level 16.. that's the ONLY THING Dougal adds to marksmen "beside the other knight heroes".

And besides, +8 attack isn't really THAT much so as to say "with Dougal, marksmen are overpowered, without him, they're kids".. It's only a 40% increase to damage (it isn't useless, but not a bonus to change the fate of marksmen, believe me).

Hope it's clear now guys..

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