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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 07, 2007 11:24 AM |
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It got boosted now and along with fiery wrath and retribution the damage bonus is pretty good. But of course if the first hit in not successful you are in deep waters  At least a charging sylvan can take a hit and has insane bonus from avenger.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted November 07, 2007 11:42 AM |
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Edited by samiekl at 11:58, 07 Nov 2007.
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Sorry, but sdfx seems to know only one strategy for all factions: mentoring a non-native hero. Dungeon cannot go the might way because it has too fragile units. I mean... even with higher defense, you cant compare 70 scouts with 300+ pixies. Of course, numbers are random, but not too far from the truth. Plus, building a dungeon town is not that easy (especially in multiplayer).
Doomforge, why did the warlock lost power of endurance in tote? my skillwheel says something else.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 07, 2007 12:08 PM |
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Uhhh. Checked again and it seems you're right. I must have missed it when analyzing the skillwheel last time  Well I didn't bother to play melee dungeon since ToTe came out, so..
Melee dungeon would be good against any heavily antimagic faction.. too bad the only TRUE antimagic faction (academy) has also access to dark magic, which shuts dungeon up for good. Against sylvan, I wouldn't even bother to try any fragile melee units.. waste of time. They can be a good add-on against stronghold or dwarves, though.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted November 07, 2007 12:16 PM |
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Vs academy its no use... init, crushing defense and attack miniarties (at least on titans) will win the game. Academy dooesnt need dark. Vs stronghold... hmm, they have higher attack and defense than you, bloodrage, plus a lot more useful skills. Vs dwarves, i dont know, i dont play with or against them (i hate dwarves  ), but as far as i know, all factions have trouble against them.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 07, 2007 01:24 PM |
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it doesn't need dark? Its not necessary, but you can't do a damn thing if your army is slowed and suffers -12 to attack. Why not to take it if you already have excelent counter destructives? (arties, magic mirror, golems, djinns and such). It makes dungeon completely hopeless.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted November 07, 2007 01:35 PM |
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Mass buffs + lots of ways through summoning. Its enough to defeat any army (assuming that you already built some miniarties).
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted November 08, 2007 02:56 AM |
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Maybe I just suck, but I've had many occasions while playing HoF that I've lost a T7 here or there while creeping. Blackies have their usefulness against certain types of creatures. But aside from a healing tent, there isn't a whole lot your hero can do to preserve them.
As for the Reds, well, there's more options. Besides Summoning and Arcane Armor as a buff, I've found that Regenerate is a godsend for sloppy players like me. Whoops! Retaliate was a bit too much? Was that a max Mage Vault you just stumbled into and a magic fist got you down? 8 mana for insurance? Thank you Nival.
Now, please explain why you can sometimes incinerate and sometimes you can't.
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Legendary_hero
Known Hero
Stronghold Warchief
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posted November 08, 2007 02:00 PM |
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Quote:
Yeah, incinerate is somehow useless, by the time i have red dragon, there is no challenging enemy, i believe incinerate is for challenging enemy
Or maybe we should walk the path of might warlock, sfdx said about sylvan heroes leading warlock armies, i will try that, though it is such insane idea.
Incinare isn't that good when you attack with it you have 50% more damage but when you're normaly attacking with Fire Breath you deal the same damage to another creature, i prefer to attack 2 enemy's then one with 50% damage and no retaliation Well if you don't have 2 behind each other it's obvious to use incinerate(or to not damage your own creatures)
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted November 08, 2007 03:46 PM |
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Quote:
Maybe I just suck, but I've had many occasions while playing HoF
Now, please explain why you can sometimes incinerate and sometimes you can't.
You just can't move before incinerate attack.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted November 08, 2007 08:21 PM |
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Quote:
Sorry, but sdfx seems to know only one strategy for all factions: mentoring a non-native hero. Dungeon cannot go the might way because it has too fragile units. I mean... even with higher defense, you cant compare 70 scouts with 300+ pixies. Of course, numbers are random, but not too far from the truth. Plus, building a dungeon town is not that easy (especially in multiplayer).
Doomforge, why did the warlock lost power of endurance in tote? my skillwheel says something else.
Well, what a meant is that a warlock + dungeon army suck so much that he/she is even weaker than mentored hero + dungeon army. Why? Because warlock + his troops die in no time anyway - there won't be a 2nd casting.. so why bother with the big army? I doesn't matter if someone brings 1 fury or 100 - effect stays the same: they just die killed by 1 strike. Of course, with defense->last stand the situation is VERY different(verified and tested).
Just to make it very clear:
Might dungeon = almost always worst strat ever, doesn't matter vs who. They even spoiled Sorgal(no +stats for grims) - the only real hope of dungeon mightiness.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted November 08, 2007 08:46 PM |
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Honestly... just because dungeon units are so pathetic as you like to say thats the reason why warlock is the only one who can make use of them. Believe me, i hate the fact that dungeon cant win a game without hit-and-runs, even with your defense. You said you've tested dungeon with defense. Vs who?
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted November 08, 2007 09:43 PM |
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But dungeon can be so pathetic that:
warlock + army(1 hit die) = warlock + fodder(1 hit die too) The most crucial is ATB mess and 2nd warlock casting anyway. Dungeon troops(except grims) are generally hp meatbags.
I tested vs myself of course. To make the test reliable I had to be sure that there is no imba stuff involved(staff of the nether, weired level ups(I used a fixed value representing average spellpower), no skill shows up etc. Also, in a normal game I'd have to get 2% defense.. so nah.
Anyway, I simply summed the cost of important buildings and the cost of the armies to make them "fair". It was a simulation of the battle on a 2 castle map after 5-6 weeks. I tried to keep the things balanced and last stand made enourmous difference.
It would probably be the best if you would suggest the typical sylvan and dungeon armies, hero level on maps that you play. Then, we would be talking about some real game scenario. Too bad that in real game scenarios too much imba happens(artifacts). So, then we would have to "avarage imba out" - so that both players have relatively "fair" arties. I know it's kind of ridiculous but it's probably the only way to make the test really realiable.
The most crucial thing about testing balance is doing it multiple times with defferent seeds.. ATB mess and luck just matter to too much. 1 battle and saying faction X> faction Y is not good enough. The same battle has to be done a few times(or more) to say with a certian probability that a faction X>a factionY..
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 08, 2007 10:01 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 22:01, 08 Nov 2007.
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You are correct of course. I think it's best having a week 4-5 clash in a medium/large map and little in the way of artifacts - maybe one utopia and one artifact merchants at most. The chance for imbalance is always there but it is much lesser.
To avoid fixed values and such I use a sphinx for instant lvl ups and place the objects I want on the map.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted November 08, 2007 10:35 PM |
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The only way to make the test reliable is to start playing vs real people. I've stated before the maps i'm usually playing, the level i usually reach, as well as the best build i found for countering sylvan. i also said that it needs to be tested vs a good sylvan player. So, if you have a better build, tested vs real people, go ahead, i'm looking forward to hear it.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 08, 2007 10:36 PM |
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Naturally, was commenting on self tests only.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted November 08, 2007 10:39 PM |
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted November 08, 2007 11:34 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 23:39, 08 Nov 2007.
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Quote:
Dungeon troops(except grims) are generally hp meatbags.
EDIT: I misunderstood the point initially, sorry... but here are the numbers anyways...
Here is the full castle HP of original upgradee of all factions, before TotE actually, but it hasn't changed THAT dramatically.
Academy....2792
Haven........2726
Sylvan.......2587
Inferno.......2488
Dungeon.....2846
Necropolis...2642
Fortress.....3118
Fortress has the biggest HP but the clear second is Dungeon.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 08, 2007 11:37 PM |
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Numbers mean nothing trust me.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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havenlover
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 08, 2007 11:45 PM |
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Quote:
Numbers mean nothing trust me.
atleast not incomplete numbers. no defense on your hero, need to specialize in destructive magic.
rundown of level:
lvl 1: awful unit
lvl 2: dies instantly
lvl 3: good hp, no defense
lvl 4: best unit but it charges forward and dies right after level 2.
lvl 5: best meatshield
lvl 6: ranged
lvl 7: blackie, cant afford it.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted November 08, 2007 11:51 PM |
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Quote:
Numbers mean nothing trust me.
Numbers affect every single aspect of this game, trust me
(but naturally, the number of factors is so huge like building costs for all of that HP for example, but if someone says that Dungeon creatures have low HP it is just wrong. Not that anyone said that, I originally misread the post. Sylvan creatures have low HP overall, because most skip Treants. And that tells one also in practice that Sylvan shouldn't be played defensively, they don't last)
Oh and I was only pointing out that they do have HP. That is different than overall survivability. So basically it means nothing except that Dungeon creatures are good against Destructive casters
Btw. Stalker is no awful unit...
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