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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Secrets of destruction revealed - playing Dungeon faction
Thread: Secrets of destruction revealed - playing Dungeon faction This thread is 61 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 20 30 40 50 ... 57 58 59 60 61 · «PREV / NEXT»
darkprince
darkprince


Adventuring Hero
posted November 24, 2013 07:44 PM
Edited by darkprince at 19:45, 24 Nov 2013.

zaio-baio said:
About that 4x paladin thing.
We talked about 4x paladin being too powerful.
Following is a mid-size map that you can have 30+ paladin week 3 with a single Haven castle (and not being imba).
http://www.mediafire.com/download/5wb2hidcydsnkpm/blackdragoncastle_V1.71.h5m.zip


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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 24, 2013 09:56 PM
Edited by Elvin at 21:57, 24 Nov 2013.

darkprince said:
Kragh has a harder time creeping early game compared to Haggash, Telsek, and sometimes even worse than Urghat/Gorshak/Garuna.

I disagree. On rat race I have killed a pack of archangels week 2, just some goblin losses. Powerful blow kicked serious @ss, I think I had leadership but not empathy.

zaio-baio said:
P.S About that 4x paladin thing - what do you guys think is stronger - 12 magmas + 24 thanes with all runes or 13 archangels + 101 paladins? (Max possible numbers week 8 with starting town lvl 2) Note that the haven side will have better might stats due to the knights higher chance to get att + def on lvl up.

Edit: Math was kinda off

101 paladins sounds way too much, would have been hella costly too. Also the dwarves can get defense and attack just as easily as knights. Only difference is knights have attack at 10% and dwarves at 8%.
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darkprince
darkprince


Adventuring Hero
posted November 24, 2013 10:55 PM
Edited by darkprince at 22:57, 24 Nov 2013.

Elvin said:
I disagree. On rat race I have killed a pack of archangels week 2, just some goblin losses. Powerful blow kicked serious @ss, I think I had leadership but not empathy.
"Early game"--I mean first week (D1-3) when heroes are usually under lv10. Kragh catches up around lv8 (especially with Last Stand). On maps with more than a few high level units, Kragh has easier time creeping.

Elvin said:
Also the dwarves can get defense and attack just as easily as knights. Only difference is knights have attack at 10% and dwarves at 8%.
When zaio-baio talked about "haven side will have better might stats due to the knights higher chance to get att + def on lvl up," he meant "att + def" stats.
Haven:     30% att, 45% def
Fortress:  20% att, 30% def

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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 24, 2013 11:43 PM
Edited by zaio-baio at 23:56, 24 Nov 2013.

@ Elvin

Those rich rmg maps that ppl play on ubi.com allow you to amass throng of paladins by week 8 and buy all your other troops. What i have in mind is the typical 1m template with large/xl size + very strong monsters + hard starting diff. Also resourses and exp setting is set to 5 (not that it matters much).
You train 20 footmans to priests week 3, then from week 4 onwards you start to train all priests to cavaliers, and footmans -> priests -> cavaliers till you reach the limit of 20 units trained. So by week 8 you can consistently have 101 palas ( what i do ). Anyways, its possible to have even more if you skip the + income buildings and train 20 footmans->priests week 2( dont remember if you need a starting town lvl 2 or lvl 3, havent played in a while). Of course you need to have a secondary knight hero with expert trainer and exp counterstrike.

My math was off, cuz i typed 11 archangels and 10 magmas - those numbers are if you start with town lvl 1.

P.S If you want to try 1m extra large then you also need to turn the "island map" setting on. Its pretty nice - 4 big zones that are divided by water, so you cant use instant travel.
Not saying its balanced, but ppl like it.

@ DarkPrince - yes, i meant higher attack and defense stats, the difference is pretty noticeable if you have heroes around lvl 30 with enlightenment.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 25, 2013 02:27 PM

Lol RMG has no balance to speak of That is not to say all toh maps were well balanced but some were simply brilliant.
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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted November 28, 2013 04:54 PM

darkprince said:
SKPRIMUS said:
both zaio-baio & darkprince refer to the game exploit bug for Kragh where waiting at beginning of battle means Kragh can instead do a warcry or whatever hero action he wants [bad, bad for even using it in real play]
I wouldn't call that an exploit
You wait and lost half your action bar--that's all. Many units with high initiatives can be faster than a waited Kragh (even his own units like Chieftains)...
You wait and lost half your action bar--that's all. Many units with high initiatives can be faster than a waited Kragh - um, don't really know why you're joking?<shurgs> unless you really don't know...also, I'm just referring to doing things that exploit bugs as not in the game design.
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Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

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darkprince
darkprince


Adventuring Hero
posted November 29, 2013 09:21 AM
Edited by darkprince at 09:21, 29 Nov 2013.

SKPRIMUS said:
um, don't really know why you're joking?<shurgs> unless you really don't know...
I'm talking about facts about Kragh's waiting and initiatives. It's been tested that Kragh starts with 1 ATB and after waiting he will lose half the ATB bar, then move at regular hero initiative of 10. Therefore, it is possible for units that start with 0.25 ATB bar and super high initiatives (>16) to act before Kragh. Anything wrong here?

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted November 29, 2013 01:51 PM

darkprince said:
...It's been tested that Kragh starts with 1 ATB and after waiting he will lose half the ATB bar, then move at regular hero initiative of 10. Therefore, it is possible for units that start with 0.25 ATB bar and super high initiatives (>16) to act before Kragh. Anything wrong here?
er, what you've described there is not a bug.  What I described on previous page is the bug - you wrote "It's been tested..." - did you test this personally?
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

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darkprince
darkprince


Adventuring Hero
posted November 29, 2013 09:49 PM
Edited by darkprince at 21:50, 29 Nov 2013.

What you described was:
SKPRIMUS said:
both zaio-baio & darkprince refer to the game exploit bug for Kragh where waiting at beginning of battle means Kragh can instead do a warcry or whatever hero action he wants

It was the same as what I said:
darkprince said:
It's been tested that Kragh starts with 1 ATB and after waiting he will lose half the ATB bar, then move at regular hero initiative of 10. Therefore, it is possible for units that start with 0.25 ATB bar and super high initiatives (>16) to act before Kragh.


That's why I asked you what was the bug here.

This is so easy to observe when you play Kragh against Wyngaal (lv 40) -- many Sylvan units will move before a waited Kragh.

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted November 30, 2013 03:08 AM

arh I see, I hadn't considered super Wyngaal boost to initial atb as a valid situation.

Sorry, I didn't realise that was the mechanics of the programming.

So that's how they made Kragh special work, make his atb=1 & prevent warcry as first action while still making it seem like his normal atb order was same as a normal hero.

Still I wouldn't have thought it was the game's intent to allow him to wait & still go ahead of 'everybody' & better than swiftmind perk - so that's the 'bug' I would mean.  But I haven't read much about what super-competitive players think.

Elvin said:
Lol RMG has no balance to speak of That is not to say all toh maps were well balanced but some were simply brilliant.
hehe, I also think well-designed map better than rmg.  Even though there's no balance in the recent discussions about 4 x pallys, high levels >30, 1-yr simulated duel map. (that 1-yr thingy lets one think about which artis to equip in final battle if one had all of them)
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Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 30, 2013 08:35 AM
Edited by zaio-baio at 08:44, 30 Nov 2013.

SKPRIMUS said:
I also think well-designed map better than rmg.  

I do agree that its possible to make a map that's better then rmg. But thats just theory. Practially those custom made maps sucked. I did liked 5-6 of the toh maps, but i got bored after i played them a few times.

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted December 01, 2013 03:33 AM

Why say in theory?  All individual tastes & not all custom maps are great either .  In general I hate those rich maps even though that was part of the "balance" and intent.  imho, we could do with a bit more well designed "neutral creeps with more than one type of creature" or "custom neutral creature for a map".
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted December 01, 2013 10:52 AM

Elvin said:

I disagree. On rat race I have killed a pack of archangels week 2, just some goblin losses. Powerful blow kicked serious @ss, I think I had leadership but not empathy.


So? Factions that can learn the arcane crystal spell can beat throng of archangels week 1...

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darkprince
darkprince


Adventuring Hero
posted December 04, 2013 04:15 AM

SKPRIMUS said:
arh I see, I hadn't considered super Wyngaal boost to initial atb as a valid situation.

Still I wouldn't have thought it was the game's intent to allow him to wait & still go ahead of 'everybody' & better than swiftmind perk - so that's the 'bug' I would mean.  But I haven't read much about what super-competitive players think.
Kragh does not go ahead of everybody.

Here is what happened for a duel between Stronghold and Academy on an ordinary day (non-Wyngaal situation).











Kragh waited, and oops, three stacks went ahead of him.



I'm not denying Kragh's strength. He's probably the strongest Barbarian for a duel map WITH Battlecry. On a normal map? Haggash, Telsek, and even Urghat could be better, especially for maps with many low-level dwellings and few lv 7 creeps.

In addition, Barbarians' Swiftmind perk is probably the weakest among all heroes. Just imagine Warlocks' Armageddon, Rangers' Rain of Frenzy, Wizards' Marked Frenzy, and many other factions that can pull an 100% mass haste with Swiftmind. Barbarians only have a 50% chance to get Battlecry... you figure.

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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted December 04, 2013 03:10 PM
Edited by zaio-baio at 15:11, 04 Dec 2013.

darkprince said:

I'm not denying Kragh's strength. He's probably the strongest Barbarian for a duel map WITH Battlecry.

So you cant wait and cast "fear my roar" on the huge paladin stack ?
There is also the thing that you can cast "fear my roar" vs fast neutral units such as dragons when creeping

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darkprince
darkprince


Adventuring Hero
posted December 04, 2013 03:59 PM

zaio-baio said:
So you cant wait and cast "fear my roar" on the huge paladin stack ?
There is also the thing that you can cast "fear my roar" vs fast neutral units such as dragons when creeping
Of course you can But you are talking about one out of eight factions. Most of the time, Stronghold focuses on crossing the battlefield eliminating enemy stacks as fast as possible--rather than ATB control. Therefore, Fear My Roar usually is not as good as Battlecry for decisive battles.

Creeping is a totally different situation. Battlecry is not nearly as useful as Fear My Roar. The question is: how many times do Barbarians learn war cries for creeping purpose? Depends on the map, but the only time Barbarians come back to town for war cries is probably right before the final battle against enemy main forces. Creeping without Fear My Roar is essential.

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Caracal
Caracal


Adventuring Hero
posted December 30, 2013 07:07 AM
Edited by Caracal at 11:23, 30 Dec 2013.

I have a question regarding map Former Friends. Recently I decided to try my luck in online games and I played few games on this map....needless to say that I got crushed bad every single time. I played with dungeon/Yrwana against Haggash, Havez, Ossir, Deleb, Kaspar. All quite powerfull war machinists (except Ossir) who broke out of their area in week 1. Now I have talked to one of the players and he confirmed what I suspected, that basically once you leave your castle you never come back to it. Now my question is how on Earth do you do that with dungeon, where you have to learn spells of lvl 2 and 3. I do understand that you can probably use lvl 2 spell to clear map but I start with building maidens and then I move out. Next day I upgrade them, which forces me to go back to castle to upgrade them or at least use secondary hero to fetch them and upgrade them. Either way I waste one day waiting for army then You have 1 day to build lvl 1 magic, 2nd day to build 2nd magic and from there I guess You can do hero chain, nevertheless I need good 4 days to have the means to creep....I saw Ossir breaking out on day 3.....how do You overcome that?? It has been pointed out to me that this map isn't to dungeon's advantage. Is it true?? Should I stop trying to play dungeon on this map? I know I lack expierience in fast creep but just how on Earth do U guys learn spells without going back to castle?? And no, there aren't any shrines and no, I didn't get secrets of destruction even a single time. I know what to do in theory but I just can't see way around spending 3-4 days on waiting for means to creep. Any tips??

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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted December 30, 2013 09:30 AM

Caracal said:
Any tips??

Yes, get stalkers + secrets of destruction. And start with Sinitar.

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Caracal
Caracal


Adventuring Hero
posted December 30, 2013 11:13 AM

Hmmm stalkers plus Sinitar. I have to say it crossed my mind since he starts with eldritch arrow and stalkers can be upgraded on day one. That sounds like a valid solution the only thing that worries me is shortage of mana but I guess I will have to work around it. Luckly there is well in each zone so I should manage. Thx for that tip.

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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted December 30, 2013 09:42 PM
Edited by zaio-baio at 21:44, 30 Dec 2013.

Caracal said:
Hmmm stalkers plus Sinitar. I have to say it crossed my mind since he starts with eldritch arrow and stalkers can be upgraded on day one. That sounds like a valid solution the only thing that worries me is shortage of mana

Sinitar can get the secrets of destruction perk the fastest + he starts with eldirch arrow, so the only bad spell that you may get via secrets of destr is stone spikes.
Also yrwanna is good if you play large maps, where you may want to keep your opponent guessing what magic school you have picked. On smaller maps she is not that hot.

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