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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 24, 2007 03:53 PM |
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Quote:
Counterspell is not overpowered at all.
It is only useful for Wizards due to high mana.
Otherwise it's plain crap, you don't have sorcery with it, you give an action for an action. But still you waste double mana.
Meh you guys don't see a big picture of this i guess. There is no way a dungeon player can go around it. This games is designed in a way that some factions have some good areas. Counterspell prevents dungeon from gaining advantage of this area. Its not overpowered in other matchups because other heroes dont relay so heavily on magic. Dungeon racial is useless , He cant switch to might because of dark magic threat. Might fight is lost due to superiority of academy artifact boosted army. All or nearly all dungeons casting is blocked. So what that he loses mana? He has tons of mana. So what that he doesn't cast spells on his own. His creatures are much better because of his racial skill, he doesn't need his spells.
This is a big picture of counterspell. Which is single ability and you ALWAYS can get it.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted April 24, 2007 03:55 PM |
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Counterspell is not overpowered.
Dungeon is imbalanced because without magic it is ruined
Quote:
He cant switch to might because of dark magic threat.
I don't know what you guys have with Dark Magic. First, using Counterspell will not let you cast dark magic, and second, not every faction and every time you get dark magic...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 24, 2007 03:56 PM |
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Quote:
Well this would be true if warlock was capable of doing formidable army, but unfortunately he is not, even if he made it somehow dark magic still owns it.
What Dark Magic? There will be no Dark Magic, if the Wizard uses his turn on Counterspell.
And well, if Dungeon army is too weak (I'm not too sure of this myself), that has nothing to do with Counterspell, has it?
EDIT > ZL beat me to it, but exactly what ZL said. 
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What will happen now?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 24, 2007 03:58 PM |
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It's not too weak, just the absence of both light and dark PLUS no means of cleansing = inferior army to every faction in this game.
It's not that the creatures are bad or smth like that.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted April 24, 2007 03:59 PM |
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Quote:
All or nearly all dungeons casting is blocked.
Are you sure?
With Basic Sorcery:
Wizard Casts Counterspell
Warlock gets his spell blocked
Warlock acts before Wizard due to Sorcery (it doesn't apply to Counterspell )
Warlock casts nice Empowered Meteor Shower easy
not to mention the creatures that can take the counterspell as well.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted April 24, 2007 04:01 PM |
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actually the flaming ballista wins the game for the Wizard... the troops won't do that much damage by themselves, and they might even lose the battle against the warlock's lineup.
The Wizards' lineup isn't that great (damage wise) either. There are few really powerfull stacks in the wizard's army, and those are hard to get.
For me the Titans and the Rajas(almost unreachable  ) are the only true power in Wizards army, the others are mediocre and cannot win the game. Also the Djins are good damage dealers, but they die very fast.
In the Dungeon army there are the Dragons and the Raiders. Hydras are great defenders(as opposed to Djinns), so I'd say things are pretty balanced in the lineups, maybe Dungeon looks a little better even!
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 24, 2007 04:01 PM |
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OK even without dark magic its still a game over when academy has its artifacts. And he doesn't have to use a counterspell when he sees that he is fighting with a might hero , you know.
Of course may say its not counterspell fault but the game design but it doesnt change the fact that it makes the matchup lost to dungeon and thats a definitely a definition of being overpowered to me.
Quote:
actually the flaming ballista wins the game for the Wizard... the troops won't do that much damage by themselves, and they might even lose the battle against the warlock's lineup.
Yes flaming arrows is another thing i have in mind as overpowered but it is not as overpowered as counterspell because its not as easily obtainable as counterspell and you can always destroy balista.
Quote:
For me the Titans and the Rajas(almost unreachable ) are the only true power in Wizards army, the others are mediocre and cannot win the game. Also the Djins are good damage dealers, but they die very fast.
I guess you havent seen 70 attack gremlins and titans with initiative of 13 or more, have you? Gremlins perhaps had 50+ didnt have time to look closely , they killed me too fast.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted April 24, 2007 04:12 PM |
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I think those mini-artifacts (that cost resources!) just balance the fact the Warlock is more 'might' than Wizard (much more attack), so I don't think that casting Counterspell all the time (useless Spellpower and Knowledge for Wizard and Warlock) will defeat the Dungeon army with ease.
Quote:
And he doesn't have to use a counterspell when he sees that he if fighting with a might hero , you know.
Why can't you see he is a MAGIC hero with dark magic and then make your warlock a destructive one?
Some examples (in general):
- the Wizard goes magic (DARK + counterspell), you go magic (destructive and 2k meteor shower ) -> fair fight due to your hero being more might than the enemy's, but he has mini-artifacts. Also, I think it's even better for the Warlock, as you WILL be able to cast something with your spell casters disrupting Counterspell or with Sorcery, resulting in a devastating hit of imba Meteor Shower spell
- the Wizard goes magic, you go might -> you lose
- the Wizard goes might (with counterspell), you go magic -> you lose
- the Wizard goes might (without counterspell), you go magic -> you probably win due to 2k meteor shower
- the Wizard goes might, you go might -> you win because the Wizard is less might hero
So you see? You just have to use the right strategy, maybe even a hybrid of might/magic warlock (say, Destructiv (magic) + Luck (both) + Attack (might))
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted April 24, 2007 04:12 PM |
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really I don't understand what you mean ... how will CounterSpell win the game for Wizards (especially Jhora) always ? It is not overpowered at all imho... You will get to cast your deadly spells from time to time, your troops fight against his troops , so where is the overpowering factor? It's a equal might battle, he has some minis, but you have luck skill and bigger attack, and also you can cast one or two Empowered Meteor Showers / battle .
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted April 24, 2007 04:15 PM |
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@ZL:
Quote:
Why can't you see he is a MAGIC hero with dark magic and then make your warlock a destructive one?
Well you can pick up Counterspell, realize you're fighting a might warlock, and not use it in the battle. In your Warlock case you must make the decision before the battle.
But you're right, you CAN see that as long as you're doing real strategy (my old multiple dwellings come to mind )
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 24, 2007 04:18 PM |
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Ok i end this discussion because i guess we have different assumptions. I have seen a full wizards army with decent artifcts. There is no way that any warlock build can win a battle with this force without spells. You wont be able cast more than one spell if academy plays right his cards. And even this spell will come too late to change the result of the battle. Sometimes if academy player is unlucky to go second with their hero it may be a shot to dungeon player but we dont talk about marginal cases , do we?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted April 24, 2007 04:20 PM |
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Counterspell is not overpowered.
Mini-arties are, especially on rich maps.
As well as training.
Racials that cost something are always imba
Your creature-vs-creature is not a good example of how good Counterspell is, it only shows the mini arties' imba.
Counterspell is available to others as well, without huge mana pool. It's rather a weak ability
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted April 24, 2007 04:21 PM |
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Quote:
Counterspell is available to others as well
Yeah, as ultimates for Warlock and Ranger
what the heck? Counterspell is not even suitable for Warlock
I will NEVER understand Nival...
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 24, 2007 04:22 PM |
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Quote:
Counterspell is not overpowered.
Mini-arties are, especially on rich maps.
As well as training.
It may be true but im talking just about this matchup. Changing artifacts will affect all matchups, i dont know is this a good thing because i havent played all matchups with academy. Changing counterspell would affect this matchup only and fixing this is more safe than fixing mini artifacts.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted April 24, 2007 04:24 PM |
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Quote:
Changing counterspell would affect thios matchup only and fixing this is more safe than fixing mini arifacts.
Not only this matchup, but any other matchups with other factions having Counterspell, which is already a too-weak-to-pick since they don't have the huge mana pool of Wizards.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted April 24, 2007 04:26 PM |
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Wizard is not Knight, so the HERO'S actions are the most important factor for Academy. Using Counterspell, you WASTE your hero's turns and his Spellpower (which is quite high). I don't think that disrupting enemy's actions as well (using double mana cost and NO Sorcery bonus) is overpowered.
It's just that you guys go too much magic with a Warlock.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 24, 2007 04:26 PM |
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Um are you trying to say that rangers have small manapool? I just dont want to mention that getting counterspell with ranger is like climbing mount everest.
Quote:
Wizard is not Knight, so the HERO'S actions are the most important factor for Academy. Using Counterspell, you WASTE your hero's turns and his Spellpower (which is quite high). I don't think that disrupting enemy's actions as well (using double mana cost and NO Sorcery bonus) is overpowered.
It's just that you guys go too much magic with a Warlock.
I know that theorycraft is easy but try to play vs good opponent.
I just add that i won some games against counterspell, but those were opponents who didnt know how to create a powerful army, things are totally different if you play with people who know how to play academy.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted April 24, 2007 04:28 PM |
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Well of course,
THAT HAS TO BE CHANGED
Btw ZL: Wizard with mini-arties = very good might hero
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted April 24, 2007 04:32 PM |
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Quote:
Btw ZL: Wizard with mini-arties = very good might hero
I'd not say 'very good', not to mention they cost a hell lot of resources (especially the high level ones)
Plus, Wizard sucks at might abilities (too low chances to pop up)
EDIT: checked the manual. With 20 KN, you add +6 attack to a stack... that's sooo HUGE!!
First, you waste 5 ore and 5 crystals for each stack
Second, even if you apply this effect to ALL your stacks, 6/20 = 0.3 so it's like having 30% attack at hero levelup, something which Warlocks have.
And thirdly, if you plan on applying more mini-arties they will cost much more resources... This is not a problem if you play so rich maps that you can afford Dragons at week 2 (starting with very many buildings too), but these maps are called 'rich'. And rich maps are not always balanced.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted April 24, 2007 04:57 PM |
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Yes mini-artis are good, but ZombieLord is right... that is not a huge bonus. Lvl 3 mini artis on all troops is impossible to obtain on normal maps, I think lvl 2 minis on most troops , maybe only lvl 1 on some is reachable in end game...
So your hero will be a decent knight, but nothing incredible.
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