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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Indipendance of Kosovo?
Thread: Indipendance of Kosovo? This thread is 12 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 · «PREV / NEXT»
Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted February 16, 2008 09:52 PM

LMAO

If you look, you can find a lighter side to just about everything. A few hours ago I was about to go into a pissed off rant about the killer known as pride. Then suddenly this thread became quite entertaining. Now I just laugh instead.
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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted February 16, 2008 11:58 PM

Quote:
Goodbuye HC, see you Seraphim and angelito and all of you Devil-worshiping bastards at God's court. Before I go, I wanna state my oppinions for all of you:
BASTARDS
Angelito - Serb hating
Seraphim - **************************************
antipaladin - he ist on lowsy speleng confust people
I would add also:
That red-archer guy
the cheater in my competition
pandora - ortodox hater
etc.

GOOD GUYS
Kronos1000
Elvin
Baklava
Wulfstan
Cepheus (he aint that bad)
I think that is that. Guys who had good conversations with me are also good. One last thing:

KOSOVO IS SERBIA!

Goodbuye to the good guys
To hell with the others



@vidoja::Bye,was nice to meetcha


@Vlaad As for embargo,I do not know if they are going to really make it or not but anyway I will post if something happens in there.
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baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted February 17, 2008 12:19 AM

lol
Well that seemed fun as hell
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money,
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Wolfman
Wolfman


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
posted February 18, 2008 03:31 PM

I can't believe no one has said anything about this now that it has happened.  And why are Serbs attacking the U.S. embassy?  We didn't do anything to them.  Next time Iran or someone says something bad about the U.S., I'm going to go attack the French embassy, makes about the same amount of sense...
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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted February 18, 2008 04:40 PM

That was a bit of an overreaction...

As to the attacks, I imagine it's because the U.S. and Great Britain were instrumental in pushing for Kosovo's independence.  
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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted February 18, 2008 05:01 PM
Edited by Moonlith at 17:01, 18 Feb 2008.

I'm giving up hopes in humanity People from different "races" will never be able to co-exist together peacefully. Too much pride and stubbornness in too many individuals.

Also, people should stop talking in a "we" and "them" sense, when referring to one's people. It only amplifies that whole contrast between different kinds of people, and it makes little sense to begin with.

"They attacked OUR embassy" ... Wow gee, you know them personally? What is it to you?


Same applies to people saying "We did this in 19xx.."  You didn't do snow, you're sitting at home behind your PC. It's your forefathers that might have done some stuff.

I find it pathetic people hate each other because stuck-up forefathers did something to each other in the past. You don't see me hating Germans because "they" kicked my country's ass back in WW2. I couldn't give a damn.

Seriously, grow up people.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted February 18, 2008 05:12 PM

Quote:
I can't believe no one has said anything about this now that it has happened.  And why are Serbs attacking the U.S. embassy?  We didn't do anything to them.  Next time Iran or someone says something bad about the U.S., I'm going to go attack the French embassy, makes about the same amount of sense...
The reason for the attack is probably because the U.S.A. was the first country who "accepted" the Kosovo as an own sovereign country, right after they proclaimed independance.

Some guys really need to learn how to control their temper....
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Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted February 18, 2008 06:38 PM
Edited by Vlaad at 19:56, 18 Feb 2008.

Quote:
Quote:
I can't believe no one has said anything about this now that it has happened.  And why are Serbs attacking the U.S. embassy?  We didn't do anything to them.  Next time Iran or someone says something bad about the U.S., I'm going to go attack the French embassy, makes about the same amount of sense...
The reason for the attack is probably because the U.S.A. was the first country who "accepted" the Kosovo as an own sovereign country, right after they proclaimed independance.
No, it was Afghanistan who first recognized the independence of Kosovo. Go figure. President Bush's statement didn't represent an official recognition (which followed soon enough).

Speaking of which, the international response has been mixed so far: while the US, Japan, Australia, France, Germany, UK and most of the EU announced they were ready to recognize Kosovo's independence, Russia, China, Indonesia, Spain, Romania and a few other countries oppose it (mainly due to their own problems with secessionist movements). While Kosovo may establish connections with the EU and other international organizations, it seems it will not be accepted to the United Nations any time soon.

As for protestors attacking the US embassy in Belgrade, it is related to the US air strikes against Serbia in 1999, after which Kosovo became independent (de facto, but not de jure). The police have been doing their best to prevent further damage. The riots were organized by marginal groups such as right-wing soccer fans who always enjoy demolishing local McDonald's restaurants, as infernal symbols of American imperialism. Not sure about the traffic signs though... Anyhow, they do not represent any major political party in Serbia, not even the most radical fractions. A big rally is supposed to take place on Thursday though.

Kosovars are aware to whom they owe their independence as well. Did you know there's Bill Clinton Boulevard in Pristina? During the celebration, the ethnic Albanians had American flags in addition to those of Albania. Even the NEWBORN sculpture, which celebrates the newly born state, is obviously not in Albanian.

Further reading:

Quote:
International Press on Kosovo:

LONDON, VIENNA, PRAGUE -- The European press today reports on the latest twists expected in the wake of Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence.

The dailies across the continent today seem to agree that while there was "no alternative" to a proclamation that runs against international law and is rejected by Serbia, the province will now face a series of serious problems, from its uncertain international status, dangers of partition, to the extremely bad economy.

"The birth of the new, problem child" will bring with it many diplomatic problems, while its survival remains uncertain, the western press says.

"Kosovo has Sunday become only a little independent, since it cannot make any decisions in the future without consent from Washington and Brussels. The biggest problem is that this state, which has only just been created, is already falling apart, since the northern, Serb-populated areas will de facto secede," Vienna's Standard reports.

Still in the Austrian capital, Kurier and Presse says that Kosovo's unilateral declaration, "while not exactly impossible to overturn under international law", had "no realistic alternative".

Editorials in five of the UK's leading dailies say that despite yesterday's celebrations in Priština, Kosovo is facing serious problems, including the fact that not even all of the EU countries will recognize it.

The Times reminds that Moscow's rejection is an even greater problem, and adds that [Kosovo PM] Hashim Thaci will have to display "iron realism" and in fact implement all the mechanisms to protect Kosovo Serbs.

The Independent says that small countries can only be prosperous if they are politically stable, economically organized and recognized by larger neighbors – none of which is the case with Kosovo, the paper concludes.

The Guardian writes that yesterday's events in Priština dealt a blow to efforts to build a new international order that will solve problems through multilateral negotiations.

"The argument that Kosovo is a unique case because of what Slobodan Milosevic did is thin," the paper says, and adds that the precedent has been set.

The Financial Times is more optimistic and says that while the unilateral declaration is "not ideal", it is the "least bad of all solutions", since it was the status quo that produced the economic hardships and flourishing of organized crime, the paper believes.

Now it is up to the EU to put in place an efficient civil mission and guarantee an open European perspective for Kosovo, at the same time increasing aid, strengthening trade and relaxing its visa regime, the daily advises.

In Germany, the papers are concentrated on the consequences of the proclamation.

"The negative impact of Kosovo's independence will be felt outside of Kosovo and Serbia," Dusseldorf's Handelsblatt writes, and adds that "likely, Kosovo is not the last episode of Yugoslavia's demise".

It is the Bosnian Serbs now who are pressuring for secession, and the West will have problems finding arguments to explain why this, once it's been allowed to Kosovo, should be withheld from the Republic of Srpska. The paper also says the "artificial creation that is Bosnia-Herzegovina will be hard to maintain against the will of the Serbs."

Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung says that "UN protectorate – Kosovo" has declared independence, while Welt points out to the anxiety in Europe's capitals over this "experiment with uncertain outcome".

Munich's Zuddeutsche Zeitung says that "Europe is witnessing the birth of a new nation", and that while Kosovo's Albanians celebrate, the Serbs there fear for their safety.

More to the east, and both Polish and Czech supporters and opponents of Kosovo's unilateral independence are worried today.

They believe that the unilaterally proclaimed independence of Kosovo, rejected by Serbia, will prove to be a heavy burden for Europe in the time to come.

And while the political elite in Poland believes that Kosovo should be recognized since the status quo was "impossible to maintain", analysts warn that the territory will "not be able to function independently and will have to be supported by Europe".

Lonely voices, such as Adam Balcer, claim however that Kosovo will "become economically viable and independent in a couple of years, with the EU assistance".

Although he believes that it was the unsolved status that brought with it serious economic hardships, Balcer now sees new danger for the "young state", namely, in "numerous and strong Serb enclaves" that will threaten its "territorial integrity".

Forum weekly editor-in-chief, Jacek Manikowski, disagrees:

"Kosovo is a country the size of, for instance, our Duchy of Opole, it has not strong state infrastructure, it's an illegal state. A radical change of elites must take place there. Kosovo is transfixed with strong mafia structures, organized crime and smuggling," he said.

Meanwhile, Prague daily Lidove Noviny says in a editorial today that irrelevant of the proclaimed independence, "Kosovo remains Europe's black hole".

The paper also adds that NATO "did not succeed in winning in peace, although it won the 1999 war".

"According to the plans of the winners, that is, us, Serbia was supposed to be whole today. It isn't. Not even with the help of billions of euros have we manage to turn Kosovo into a normal, civilized region, where mafia would not rule, where there would be roads, and where people would have jobs," the editorial was blunt.

Lidove Noviny goes on to say that Serbia ought to be "glad to get rid of such a black hole", and adds, "but explain that to the Serbs".

Hospodarske Novivy, another Czech daily, analyzes Kosovo's economic woes, and reminds that the province cannot count on entering international organizations, even after it is recognized by the United States and most EU member-states.

"Only the Organization of the Islamic Conference will greet them with open arms. This is how various regimes and Islamic groups can strengthen their influence in Kosovo, and Europe," the paper warns.

"Should Kosovo remain so isolated, those of opponents of its independence who said that Kosovo will become, if it already isn't one, a base for Islamic invasion of Europe, will be proved right," the article concludes.
Quote:
Newsweek

Kosovo declared independence Sunday, but it's unlikely any time soon to become the world's 193rd country. What it will almost certainly be is a failed state, unrecognized by the United Nations, unable to govern itself, dependent on Europe for its police and NATO for its armed forces.

After eight years as an international protectorate and billions of dollars in aid and reconstruction funds, its economic prospects are grim. Unemployment is 57 percent, and among youths it's more like 70 percent; half the population is under 25. Small wonder then that its chief export is organized crime. It remains ethnically cleansed of its Serb minority, who only survive in the province under armed guard by NATO. And it has the potential of provoking a wider conflict as other powers try to work out just what to do about yet another intractable Balkan mess.

In theory, Kosovo has been self-governing since NATO bombed the Serbian province for 78 days in 1999, and the United Nations under Security Council Resolution 1244 declared it an autonomous province under U.N. protection but also confirmed that it was part of Serbia. Kosovo was never a federal part of Yugoslavia, as were the other parts that broke away from Serbia's domination; despite its majority Albanian population, its long historical association with Serbia, which regarded it as something akin to the nation's Jerusalem, put it in a different class.

But massacres by Serbian troops in the province led to NATO intervention, and a U.N. mandate. Since then, the U.N. Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK), along with the European Union and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), has administered all of Kosovo's civil institutions, and NATO's Kosovo Protection Force (KFOR), has provided its military protection. Efforts by the United Nations to broker a deal with Serbia on transition to independence failed last year; with Russia's support, Serbia has been intransigent on giving Kosovo anything more than mere self-rule—well short of full independence.

Finally, Kosovo's elected Parliament met Sunday and Kosovo's Prime Minister Hashim Thaci read a statement declaring Kosovo "independent, sovereign and democratic." The move was expected, and Albanians filled the streets of their capital, Pristina, waving American and Albanian flags as well as the new Kosovo one (a blue banner with a yellow map of Kosovo under several stars).

But in any real sense, it remains a protectorate. There was no move to turn over U.N.-administered ministries to Kosovars, at least not so far. Because the status of the U.N. mandate is unclear, however, and the Russians will likely veto any extension of it, last week the European Union announced that it would send a 2,000-strong "police and justice" force to the territory, and NATO has said it will continue to provide security with KFOR.

In Serbia, the running joke was that the country was like Nokia: every year there was a new and tinier model of the state Slobodan Milosevic two decades ago sought to makeover into Greater Serbia. There was plenty of anger, as well. The declaration of independence provoked rioting on the streets of Belgrade, with hooligans and ultranationalists stoning police and throwing Molotov cocktails, trying to reach Western targets like the American Embassy and McDonald's outlets. Kosovo looms over the country's messy and unstable political scene; Serbian Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica, an implacable foe of the EU and America, leads a shaky coalition including pro-Western elements; he called Kosovo's move "the illegitimate declaration of a puppet state on the territory of Serbia." In the recent Serbian presidential election, Boris Tadic, a pro-Western leader, only narrowly defeated the Radical Party candidate, Tomislav Nikolic, who was widely seen as a stand-in for the party's leader, an accused war criminal, Vojislav Seselj, now on trial at the Hague. Nikolic ran on a bellicose position about Kosovo.

No one expects even a more extreme Serbian government to try to invade Kosovo, at least as things stand now. But Serbs are furious about treatment of their minority in Kosovo, about 200,000 of whom have fled since the United Nations and NATO took over, and Albanian gangs began retaliating against Serbs wherever they could. Another massacre might well spark stronger reaction in Serbia, and perhaps even intervention. And unlike 1999, Serbia now has a strong ally in Russia, where President Vladimir Putin has been talking tough on the Kosovo issue; the Russians called for an emergency session of the U.N. Security Council to meet Monday. And KFOR is a much weaker force than it originally was, with U.S. troops drawn down for Iraq and other NATO partners worried about staffing Afghanistan. Richard Holbrooke, the former U.S. secretary of State who was America's point man during the Balkan wars, has previously called for reinforcing KFOR, especially if Kosovo declares independence—which it has just done.

In the coming days, it's widely expected that the United States and many European countries will recognize Kosovo's independence. But Russia will certainly veto its admission to the United Nations. And even the EU will face difficulties internally, with six of its 22 member states unlikely to endorse the move; these include Spain, Romania, Greece, Cyprus, Bulgaria and Slovakia. For countries like Spain, with its restive Basque region, and Cyprus, where the Turkish north of the country has declared a rump state, Kosovo is a dangerous precedent. It's the first time since World War II that the internal borders of a European country are being redrawn, with the exception of course of Germany. But then, Kosovo is no Germany.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted February 18, 2008 07:22 PM

lol

Sometimes I just can't believe what I'm seeing. It will take HC a long time to recover from this mortal blow
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baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted February 18, 2008 08:51 PM

Quote:
Lidove Noviny goes on to say that Serbia ought to be "glad to get rid of such a black hole", and adds, "but explain that to the Serbs".

Lol, actually, this is probably the truest thing I've read in a while
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antipaladin
antipaladin


Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
posted February 18, 2008 09:35 PM

well how do you,baklva feel about what had happend,and you seraphim? I mean they have alot difficulties,like every new born country,to rebuild it econimica,but i also bare the question:
Will it unite to albania as a province,or remaine a nation of its own?
and if kosovers recived it own indepdence,so should basque,palastinas and anything else of that metter?

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baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted February 18, 2008 09:59 PM

Quote:
well how do you,baklva feel about what had happend

Don't feel much about it anymore. It's independent, alright, "so long and thanks for all the fish" as Douglas Addams put it. Europe got itself another conservative islamist country with a huge percent of unemployment, and flourishing criminal and drug routes by Albanian mafia. Their choice.
My country learned an important lesson about immigrants, especially Albanian ones. Hopefully immigration will be controlled in the future lest they suddenly start saying how other parts of my country were always theirs too.
I'm still sort of sorry, though. And considering how much people have bled for that Kosovo throughout history, I don't like the prospect of a superpower on the other side of the globe coming around and changing stuff as they please, for their own political interests... I also have some personal emotional ties to Kosovo (well we all do I guess), but never mind. There's nothing I can do about it really. As long as things remain as peaceful as possible.
This handful of idiots who go around looting restaurants and breaking traffic signs isn't even worthy of mentioning. It's not like burning their own town will really make anything better. But they'll pass. They'll get tired eventually.
Finally, yes, I do think that other troubled regions in the world should get independence, after this. Why not? Most of them have more right for that then Kosovo Albanians. Native Americans, Scotland, Palestine... But we all know that's not going to happen. Kosovo was a "separate case". It's not like anyone gives a crap about democracy, international law or, God forbid, some sort of justice or reason anyway.
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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted February 18, 2008 11:34 PM
Edited by Seraphim at 15:10, 19 Feb 2008.

Quote:
well how do you,baklva feel about what had happend,and you seraphim? I mean they have alot difficulties,like every new born country,to rebuild it econimica,but i also bare the question:
Will it unite to albania as a province,or remaine a nation of its own?
and if kosovers recived it own indepdence,so should basque,palastinas and anything else of that metter?



How I feel?I can say awsomeness pure.How would you feel after a long and important way to indepedence? I just would like to thank all the states and people,who support and recognize Kosovo as a state.I especially thank USA that made one of the biggest efforts to help justice win over guilt and war and help my landsman to their righteous liberty form Serbia.

As for Serbs here,well they are making protests and well,they attacked US embassies in Belgrade and took Slovenian and European flags out of their institutions.
Anyway,some small interesting note,on sunday 200 soldiers from Serbia aproached the Kosovo border demanding to pass to Mitrovica,but they were told to go the other way to Serbia by KFOR and Kosovo police.Probably it was provocation act.

PS:Montenegro recognizes Kosovo.

Edit:Well,Montenegro said it will recgonize Kosovo.
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antipaladin
antipaladin


Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
posted February 18, 2008 11:51 PM

Quote:
How I feel?I can say awsomeness pure.How would you feel after a long and important way to indepedence? I just would like to thank all the states and people,who support and recognize Kosovo as a state

be carefull,when israel did it,indepdence war of israel begane.
what is kosovonain opinion about israel?
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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted February 18, 2008 11:57 PM
Edited by Seraphim at 23:58, 18 Feb 2008.

Quote:
Quote:
How I feel?I can say awsomeness pure.How would you feel after a long and important way to indepedence? I just would like to thank all the states and people,who support and recognize Kosovo as a state

be carefull,when israel did it,indepdence war of israel begane.
what is kosovonain opinion about israel?


Those were different times maybe with different prospects with similar outcomes.But about Israel,do not worry if we owe our indepedence and we always fought for our liberty,than at those times eventhough those problems Israel had,Israel was formed righteously and deserved it not only moraly but also legaly.
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BAD
BAD


Promising
Known Hero
posted February 19, 2008 01:53 AM
Edited by BAD at 01:56, 19 Feb 2008.

@ Vidoja

Most can say lot of things, but my opinion is this: I'm against Kosovo's Independence.

I'm not serbian, I'm romanian and already my country refused to recognize Kosovo's Independence.

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antipaladin
antipaladin


Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
posted February 19, 2008 09:10 AM

why is that?
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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted February 19, 2008 09:16 AM

If u are doing hard to accept the independance of Kosovo coz you are sebrian, just see it from a different point of view:

Serbia now is free!







Yes...it sounds a bit funny, but it isn't meant disrespectfull. What I have learned in life is one important thing:
Things u can't change have to be taken as they are, and the best has to be taken out of it, means, every thing has a positive aspect. Sometimes u just have to look harder...



P.S.: About me being a "serbian" hater. To be honest, I haven't studied history that much to be any good in yugoslavian history. I know very little about all these "folks" which once were united in 1 country and now try to seperate. I feel same for serbs as I feel for kosovars, bosnians, and any else.
I'm probably one of the most liberal guys out there refering to foreigners (the majority of my friends / family is not german), and that's maybe the reason why I am ok with this independance, coz for it seemed the kosovars felt like "foreigners" in serbia, and therefore a minority. I always tend to give my vote to the minorities, the weaker ones.....
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antipaladin
antipaladin


Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
posted February 19, 2008 09:24 AM

then what would do,if bavarian provinces demanded indepdency?
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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted February 19, 2008 11:02 AM
Edited by angelito at 11:05, 19 Feb 2008.

I live in bavaria. Bavaria once was a kingdom (till end of 19th century), and there are many bavarians (mostly the older men) who want "their" king back.
But to be honest, I don't think this is a comparable situation. Bavarians are not an own ethnic culture (even though the northern germans proclaim the opposit ), so I wouldn't see any sense in creating an own state. The 16 Federal States we've got in germany (11 in former west, 5 in former east germany) may have some different aspects in culture and dialect, but all in all we feel like germans (imo).

Although there are parts of bavaria which "do not count" as bavaria in the eyes of the "old bavarian people", which live in the regions south and east of munich mostly. These "do not count" region is "Franken" as no.1, the region around Nürnberg (Nuremberg). If they would proclaim independance from Bavaria, we would probably help them wherever we can

And second, I think Kingdoms are old fashioned and not contemporary anymore. Just look at Great Britain or Japan. The're representatives...that's it.
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