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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted February 19, 2008 11:19 AM |
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i know that bavaria was once a kingdom of its own,thats why i asked,legetimy...
and ethincly speaking,germans are just like the french or british,european. grecko-roman ethnicy that had spread thorw out the world.
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types in obscure english
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted February 19, 2008 01:04 PM |
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If I were a Serb I'd never accept Kosovo's independence. I concord with Mr Tadic has done, he is pro-western but he is still seems to be a patriot.
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted February 19, 2008 02:04 PM |
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Quote:
i know that bavaria was once a kingdom of its own,thats why i asked,legetimy....
This is the main part. Legetimy. Is it really about legitimy? I wrote in a different thread earlier, you will find different boarder lines of any country in every century. Germany looked different in the year 1200 than it looks now. Italy (Roman Empire so to speak) looked VERY different in the time Jesus of Nazareth was present. So who are we (all people living in present time) to judge if part of a land belongs to this or to that nation?
If the part of Bavaria where I am living right now would proclaim independance, which means I have to "leave" germany and become member of a new sovereign state, I would bother about that issue and think what to do.
But if a part of Bavaria, where I don't have any relations to (Franken  ) would make that step, I would not care. Bavaria is not MINE. So how can I say: "Dare you Franken! This part of Bavaria is MINE (OURS)!"
They are the majority in that part. They decide.
Maybe we take a look on a map of Yugoslavia right before Milosevic started his "cleansing" program and see where albanians had their territory (where they lived), where bosnians, croatians and so on.
I am not sure all albanians in that region currently live there by free will. But that's just me...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted February 19, 2008 02:44 PM |
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but there are 2 more elements for and against
For:Had the world not interfeard and kosovo had not recived the indepency war could erruprt,terror acts,and israel vs palastine fued N#2
Against: We are not sure of the political game that plays around the balkans by it own players and the world interfears,with it experimant,why give kosovo and not the rest of the minortys in world?
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types in obscure english
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted February 19, 2008 03:11 PM |
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Quote:
@ Vidoja
Most can say lot of things, but my opinion is this: I'm against Kosovo's Independence.
I'm not serbian, I'm romanian and already my country refused to recognize Kosovo's Independence.
What makes you to say that?
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted February 19, 2008 04:16 PM |
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Quote:
Maybe we take a look on a map of Yugoslavia right before Milosevic started his "cleansing" program and see where albanians had their territory (where they lived), where bosnians, croatians and so on.
You were saying...?
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted February 19, 2008 04:41 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 16:45, 19 Feb 2008.
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Quote:
Quote:
Maybe we take a look on a map of Yugoslavia right before Milosevic started his "cleansing" program and see where albanians had their territory (where they lived), where bosnians, croatians and so on.
You were saying...?
What is the problem here?
See the purple area? We lived there even before the cleansing program and before WW1 our area we lived was larger but well,In that time there were other cleansing programs.And eitherwise the program of Milosevic had its effects,citizens were forced to leave their homes or even were killed right there.
Edit: I may just guess about the correctivity of this map.Sources are seperated in pro-serb and pro-kosovar.Serbs tent to exaggerate their beliefs that Kosovo is theirs and about the pro-kosovo sites,waht I have seen there were nothing but facts there.Anyway it is my opinion
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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Andrelvis
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 19, 2008 04:50 PM |
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Seraphim, sorry for my ignorance, but were the Albanians really the big majority in Kosovo before WWI? From what I have read(which is not much, I admit), the Albanians were about 50% of the population, before Mussolini started doing ethnic cleansing in the area, replacing Serbs with Albanians. Feel free to correct me, I want nothing but to gain the knowledge of what happened.
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted February 19, 2008 05:21 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 17:25, 19 Feb 2008.
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What is the problem here?
I posted the map in response to angelito's idea that the ethnic classification and self-determination could be the criteria for independence. As you can see, the situation before the conlflicts in former Yugoslavia was more complex than that. Finally, if all other ethnic groups were allowed to decide their destiny, why not Serbs? Compare the map to the latest map featuring independent states in the area.
Sadly, it's not that simple.
Quote:
Edit: I may just guess about the correctivity of this map.
Are you saying that map is not correct? What part do you think is wrong? I'm doubtful it's false, it resembles most of the maps I've seen.Quote:
Sources are seperated in pro-serb and pro-kosovar.Serbs tent to exaggerate their beliefs that Kosovo is theirs and about the pro-kosovo sites,waht I have seen there were nothing but facts there.Anyway it is my opinion
For example, visitkosovo.org - the official site of Kosovo's ministry of tourism, which claimed that Serbian medieval monasteries were built in "Albanian-Byzantine style". Oh, I see the pages are "under construction" after the mess they made.  "History in the making" - what a great motto! As for propaganda on unofficial sites... don't get me started.
Now it's all irrelevant though. Without the Serbian boogeyman that can be used as an excuse for everything, the human rights of national minorities are Kosovo's first task.
The party is over, get ready for the hangover.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted February 19, 2008 06:03 PM |
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Edited by yasmiel at 18:07, 19 Feb 2008.
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Im only wondering how long will it take for Kosovo to become a part of Albania. There is no way that there will be 2 countries populated by same nation for long. Especially since they share the border.
We should all do the USA program - if you and your parents are born in USA, you are American and thats end of conversation It would keep the nation border and political border a single one
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arantir
Tavern Dweller
The Good Necromancer
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posted February 19, 2008 07:17 PM |
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There is no need for Kosovo to be independent from Serbia, and I don’t understand why the White House helped them.
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"There is no one left to seal away your father. You have beaten me, and murdered the world."
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted February 19, 2008 07:43 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 19:50, 19 Feb 2008.
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Quote:
Seraphim, sorry for my ignorance, but were the Albanians really the big majority in Kosovo before WWI? From what I have read(which is not much, I admit), the Albanians were about 50% of the population, before Mussolini started doing ethnic cleansing in the area, replacing Serbs with Albanians. Feel free to correct me, I want nothing but to gain the knowledge of what happened.
Well,I said there were cleansing programs before ww2 and ww1 so else is explainable of course.Musolini occupied Albania as far as i am aware.Kosovo part was under serbia but nothing is documented about the cleasings or native populations in Kosovo.If we were 50% than that means the other part had migrated to Turkey and Sicily cause of cleansings.
Edit:We did not come and take Serbs kosovo from but its the opposite Serbs,that time occupied lands(this is history)that were from Ottoman regime.Those lands were populated by albanians than those cleansings began and people that left their lands were called Muhajir(Muhaxhir in albanian)means refugees.Thats all and about the correct numbers there are no evidence since it was never documented.You can never use such numbers 50% albanians or else as evidence.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted February 19, 2008 07:58 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 19:59, 19 Feb 2008.
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Quote:
Im only wondering how long will it take for Kosovo to become a part of Albania. There is no way that there will be 2 countries populated by same nation for long. Especially since they share the border.
What about Germany and Austria, Romania and Moldavia, Greece and Cyprus, Serbia and Montenegro? Quote:
We should all do the USA program - if you and your parents are born in USA, you are American and thats end of conversation It would keep the nation border and political border a single one
Yeah. "We have made Italy - now we must make Italians!" Too bad, Yugoslav national teams kicked ass.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted February 19, 2008 08:04 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 20:10, 19 Feb 2008.
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There is no need for Kosovo to be independent from Serbia, and I don’t understand why the White House helped them.
You should not post such things here if you do not understand things right.If you want the golden tounge,keep silence.(thats my motto)
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted February 19, 2008 08:17 PM |
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I have read Milosevic has "dislodged" (hope this is the right word in that context) 800.000 albanians out of Kosovo. Where did they go? to Albania? And when there are around 2 million albanians in Kosovo nowadays, where there nearly 3 millions at that time?
Was Kosovo ever populated with a majority of Serbians?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted February 19, 2008 08:27 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 20:29, 19 Feb 2008.
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Quote:
I have read Milosevic has "dislodged" (hope this is the right word in that context) 800.000 albanians out of Kosovo. Where did they go? to Albania? And when there are around 2 million albanians in Kosovo nowadays, where there nearly 3 millions at that time?
Was Kosovo ever populated with a majority of Serbians?
I suggest you read other sources rather than rely on what you are told at a gaming forum. Start with Wikipedia, although it's often the target of so-called "edit wars".
To answer your question:Quote:
During the Kosovo War in 1999, over 700,000 ethnic Albanians and around 100,000 ethnic Serbs were forced out of the province to neighbouring Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Serbia. After the United Nations took over administration of Kosovo following the war, the vast majority of the Albanian refugees returned.
Many non-Albanians - chiefly Serbs and Roma - fled or were expelled, mostly to the rest of Serbia at the end of the war, with further refugee outflows occurring as the result of sporadic ethnic violence.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted February 19, 2008 08:29 PM |
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Edited by Binabik at 20:31, 19 Feb 2008.
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We should all do the USA program - if you and your parents are born in USA, you are American and thats end of conversation
It doesn't matter where the parents are from. If someone is born in the US, then they are Americans.
Also, the average person on the street wouldn't think of it this way, but legally, someone born in another country and becomes a naturalized citizen is also American. They are not even an immigrant, they are simply an American.
Quote:
There is no need for Kosovo to be independent from Serbia, and I don’t understand why the White House helped them
Something that seems to have escaped this discussion is that every country in the world must take sides. They have no choice.
If the US or any other country sided with keeping Serbia/Kosovo unified, the same thing could be asked....why did they take that side instead of the other?
Even if they didn't take a stance they are still taking sides. They are siding with the status quo.
So the US had no choice but to take a side. No matter what they decided one group would see them as friendly and the other group see them as unfriendly.
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted February 19, 2008 08:52 PM |
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The U.S. is a part of NATO. This was a NATO campaign. Since the U.S. was a part of a NATO, it had an obligation to support what had been decided by NATO. That is the way we're supposed to do things, right? I mean, considering who we have in charge right now, multilateral support is far better than unilateral aggression.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted February 19, 2008 08:54 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 20:57, 19 Feb 2008.
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If you want the golden tounge,keep silence.(thats my motto)
Funny. Haven't noticed that before.
@Binabik
Well if the USA had to pick a side, that's alright. I believe, though, that it didn't have to bomb innocent people. But Clinton still did.
Quote:
Since the U.S. was a part of a NATO, it had an obligation to support what had been decided by NATO.
But the USA was one of the main proponents of the campaign... The US government of the time didn't just support what's been already decided, it decided.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted February 19, 2008 09:21 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 21:31, 19 Feb 2008.
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Quote:
Quote:
If you want the golden tounge,keep silence.(thats my motto)
Funny. Haven't noticed that before.
@Binabik
Well if the USA had to pick a side, that's alright. I believe, though, that it didn't have to bomb innocent people. But Clinton still did.
Quote:
Since the U.S. was a part of a NATO, it had an obligation to support what had been decided by NATO.
But the USA was one of the main proponents of the campaign... The US government of the time didn't just support what's been already decided, it decided.
Do I need to take the golden tongue here?Doubtful,now isn'it?
If USA is all badyy,badyy to Serbia,how good is Russia to Serbia?I mean what,they just wanted to delay Kosovo status.
Edit:Meh,this should already be a closed thread.I mean Kosovo is independant,so anti-kosovo indepedence discussion is over.Anyway,I got my home and want it to have a wall around my garden so what?It is my thing what I want to do in my home,even if much of my rooms were taken I want to live in my home with no link to my neighbour.
It is the same thing with my homeland.I want my home alone not with my neighbour.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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This thread is pages long: 
