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| Thread: The ULTIMATE DRAMA THREAD -- Read and Enjoy |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 25, 2008 11:19 AM |
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So.. This thread will be over when you are done dissing ves? Or is there something more you would like to add? Because if it's just the dissing you can do it personally.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted September 25, 2008 11:29 AM |
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It's over Al.
Just let it go.
I know how you feel & I do understand only too clearly.
It's over with.
Everyone heard & they have their own views about the situation which I think you wanted more then the money.
You worked really hard for the false hope of not getting what was stated.
There is a point to it all, not about the money.
I know it, the people who like Rob on here know it.
I did not just crawl under the sand & think your here about the money.
I do alot of the similarity & there is a point to it all.
There was alot of difficulties going on though.
Just let it go, you did what you had to do.
It's done.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 25, 2008 12:33 PM |
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Quote:
In this tourney every player BRINGS something - more than an year of his free time. And TIME = MONEY.
Time = Money, I agree.
Free time = money, I do not.
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AL_Killmore
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 25, 2008 12:51 PM |
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Nice post, Aculias.
(I'm a bit surprised to see it from you after your first posts in this thread)
But I can't let it go. Not that fast, not that easy.
If it was just me - I'd kick it all in an instant.
But it's not like that. It's a question of principles.
There are also too many other people involved.
The players whose prizes were robbed by Rob:
Elit and Jorko80 - my close friends in Real Life and very good Heroes players.
Cycleguy - the most dedicated Heroes player I've seen in years.
Arteman - the best Heroes 5 player I've played against.
Garrik - don't know him much.
The players who were cheated with false promotion and advertising by Vesuvius for more than year and a half:
Every single player who made even one game in Toh Clans!
Every single player who ever read the Rules for ToH Clans season one.
You are right. There's not much I can do about it.
I started this discussion. I had some posts in it. Ignored a large part of the insults thrown at me. Answered to others. Warned the community about this cheap act of cheating (Many of you didn't even know what's all the fuss about).
But then... What will happen if nobody reacts to the injustice ?
What will happen if we start just ignorring the lies and dishonor, never talking about them ?
Today we can do it in ToH - a virtual place made for some games and fun (but there are money involved, and that is already not a game. money are Real Life - an important part of it)
Tomorrow - we will start ignorring the injustice in our every day life.
And that would be a sad thing...
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted September 25, 2008 02:25 PM |
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Edited by pandora at 14:26, 25 Sep 2008.
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Poker is a very fair example, I play online often. There are regularly tournaments where the house will offer a guaranteed prize pool - however, if there are not enough entrants, that prize pool will not be granted.
In example, in a $5.50 tournament with $15000.00 guaranteed, you can be certain, that if only 3 players were to enter - the house would not offer that guaranteed amount - a minimum must be met.
Vesuvius did no different. If the activity is not there, he should not even have to explain this to anyone - it should be plain logic.
If you had all sent Vesuvius a fee for joining clans, and he promised to divvy up that fee for prizes at the end, then he would absolutely be in the wrong - but that is not the case.
ToH is a privilege that you are offered for free - its not your right to always have the tournament. Its not your right to have it automated, and its not your right to be paid by one man for playing this game.
If in the future you guys want a prize pool, then maybe you should decide an entry fee for tournaments, I imagine Vesuvius would be willing to do that for you - whether you see it or not, over the years all he has done is try to give you guys what you want...
But don't come here acting as though he has wronged you, because he has not.
Back when I played in ToH, we played because it was fun, and we liked each other 
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted September 25, 2008 02:56 PM |
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Couldnt have been said any better! Bravo Pandora! You need to give yourself a little red Star for that post. 
hmmm... but when did you get so wise?
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted September 25, 2008 02:58 PM |
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According to the posts before, AL has been critically wounded by 1) Discrimination and 2) Fraud.
1) In other words, the fact that some receive the award while others are left without threw AL in frenzy. Yet, I'll try to explain once more that this accusation is illegitimate. Every prize recipient individually has suffered at least the same monetary penalty; namely, prize has been reduced by 250$ for each equally. In this respect, 2nd clan memebers have "lost" the least amount (125$).
Those who are in friendly relationship with math should refrain accusing Ves of Discrimination.
2) Fraud. Dear TOHers, we must understand the cardinal difference in perceived explantion of Ves actions as seen by AL and the rest of us.
Namely, AL sincerely (seems so) believes that Ves has cheated the audience on purpose and was fully aware of it. On the other hand, the community believes that there was no element of fraud and the situation has stemmed from simple negligence in updating information.
We must realize that this is the impassable chasm as beliefs define all action. It's pointless to attack AL in this situation! On contrary, some credit should be given to him for following principles despite negligible odds. The least we can do is respect his position and just leave Al alone - both parties are completely right in light of their own interpretation of the situation.
The only truly despicable thing was insulting and swearing. Unfortunately, AL has been a major contributor to this...
Personally, I feel sad that another strong player is leaving TOH and on such terms  Perhaps, time can heal this wound as well...
To Antistar: you proposal is noble and yet meaningless as this thread is already almost dead and things have been said. Your deed would be beneficial only if served some preventive action. Currently, it might only introduce unwanted precedent. Anyway, I'm glad to see such a mature person around.
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AL_KIllmore
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 25, 2008 04:18 PM |
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Such passion in justifying other people's lies and mistakes is truly admirable.
Yet you don't judge by the facts but are going completely hypothetical.
What if there were fees ? - The fact is: There were not any fees.
What if there was prize pool? - The fact is: There was not. There were money prizes announced in the start of the season and not a single word that those awards will be taken away. However, AFTER THE END OF THE SEASON, not before, not during, but AFTER - those prizes were nullified without any warning.
What if there were only 3 players ? - The fact is: There were 75 players and thousands of games played in ToH Clans.
What if the prizes were reduced by 250$ each? - The fact is: Vesuvius removed Clan awards completely. The other 3 awards (MVP, Most points, Caesar) were halved.
What if there was not ToH or it was payed for joining in? - The fact is: There it is. And it's free to play.
No any statement that Vesuvius needs the money for the site maintenance - if so, he should say how much does he pay for it - per year. I don't really believe that maintaining a site is such an expensive hobby. I have some personal experience in that area ...
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted September 25, 2008 04:24 PM |
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you think,that by continuiing to mumble you will get the money?
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types in obscure english
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted September 25, 2008 04:29 PM |
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Edited by pandora at 16:30, 25 Sep 2008.
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I don't think Vesuvius has any obligation towards any of you to disclose what it costs him to maintain the site. In the past he has said what it costs, but really that's not anyone's business.
Doesn't it mean anything to you that he keeps the site running on his own time, for no compensation? If he were an addict style player who participated actively in the tournament, then you might think that he has a selfish interest in keeping it running - but he isn't. He has maintained this tournament for years, giving his time just to honour a commitment he made to this community. You don't think that there are many different ways he could better spend his time than running this site?
It just shocks me to read that you put this great expectation on you that he owes you something.
I can understand that you might feel slighted because you went into the tournament with an expectation of pay - but did you ever speak to Vesuvius about it beforehand to confirm things?
It would have saved some headache if he had posted it sooner, but he did not - that's just the way it is.
I think he's explained his reasons quite calmly, and at this point there's not much more you can say about it than you already have.
I don't know how you think that attacking a man who gives you something for nothing is going to benefit you in anyway.
PS to Jinxer: I guess I've gotten so wise because I'm so damned old now lol We used to play games, and I'd have my son in my lap the whole time, now he's in Junior Highschool and checking out the chikas... *sigh*
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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AL_Killmore
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 25, 2008 04:48 PM |
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Have you ever contested in a REAL tournament ?
Have you ever won a REAL sport or gaming event ?
I have some tourneys behind me. Some of them were free to join in. Some of them were not. I also had some first places, some second, third.
In each tournament that i've been - winners received their prizes. There were some questionable judgements from time to time, but not even once have i seen a removal of the prizes because of the main referee's personal "disappointment".
I saw such a thing here for the first time in my life.
The promised prizes were not given. The promotion of the tourney was completely fake. The excuses were pathetic - expectations of thousands players, hundreds of teams, etc. etc. etc. No apology, no nothing. He made the site so he can do whatever he wants.
I don't buy that. You do. It's understandable. You were not personally affected.
Strider_HL has his money and now he defends Vesuvius eagerly - that is understandable too.
I don't blame anyone from the community for his opinion.
There's just one person that i blame and i stated the reasons.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted September 25, 2008 05:00 PM |
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Quote:
Such passion in justifying other people's lies and mistakes is truly admirable.
What is admirable is your attitude when no one asked you to give anything, yet you DEMAND the prize, as if you have "worked" hard in the competition and not for FUN.
Quote:
What if there were fees ? - The fact is: There were not any fees.
Therefore he has no obligation to give you any prize. Period.
Quote:
What if there were only 3 players ? - The fact is: There were 75 players and thousands of games played in ToH Clans.
Yep and they were playing FOR FUN. Period.
Quote:
What if the prizes were reduced by 250$ each? - The fact is: Vesuvius removed Clan awards completely. The other 3 awards (MVP, Most points, Caesar) were halfed.
Seems you can't understand mathematics. halved means a multiplicative operation, multiplying by 0.5.
Whereas removing a certain amount means a subtractive operation. 500-250 = 250; 250-250 = 0; this is a subtractive operation, not a multiplicative one.
So prizes weren't "halved" they were reduced by 250 (subtractive).
Quote:
No any statement that Vesuvius needs the money for the site maintenance - if so, he should say how much does he pay for it - per year. I don't really believe that maintaining a site is such an expensive hobby. I have some personal experience in that area ...
Point is, that is none of your business, what he does and how he maintains it.
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted September 25, 2008 05:51 PM |
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Quote:
PS to Jinxer: I guess I've gotten so wise because I'm so damned old now lol We used to play games, and I'd have my son in my lap the whole time, now he's in Junior Highschool and checking out the chikas... *sigh*
since when is 36 old ? (and i know your 34).
@all
Quote:
Have you ever contested in a REAL tournament ?
Have you ever won a REAL sport or gaming event ?
Point is its not RL,its internets,get over it.
End of story /vanglis mod.
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types in obscure english
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted September 25, 2008 07:17 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
What if the prizes were reduced by 250$ each? - The fact is: Vesuvius removed Clan awards completely. The other 3 awards (MVP, Most points, Caesar) were halfed.
Seems you can't understand mathematics. halved means a multiplicative operation, multiplying by 0.5.
Whereas removing a certain amount means a subtractive operation. 500-250 = 250; 250-250 = 0; this is a subtractive operation, not a multiplicative one.
So prizes weren't "halved" they were reduced by 250 (subtractive).
Can you calculate how from 1000-250 Ves get 500 for Ceasar? Maybe its abit harder qestion for you?
From other side if you calc
1000*0.5=500
500*0.5=250
and for clans its mean:
1st place 250*0.5=125 x3
2nd place 100*0.5=50 x3
Total=525$
So far its total 525$ for all clan prizes. Look like his good name cost lesss from it.
How i say before alot people here post befor think and what is piss me more they dont ever play.
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted September 25, 2008 07:49 PM |
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Quote:
How i say before alot people here post befor think and what is piss me more they dont ever play.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. This isn't a topic about gaming strategy, its about the tournament.
I may not be active in ToH anymore, but I used to be back when rankings were updated manually, and there were so many games played each day that it was a nightmare. i played in the tournament for years, and made a lot of friends who are still active, so it is still something that means something to me, even if now its more a point of nostalgia.
When I see someone come on here and attack Vesuvius, it makes me upset. You see, from all the years that ToH has been around two things have been constant - Vesuvius has always run it, and there have always been people who will complain and lose their minds when they feel that things aren't going their way. It doesn't matter if its money, prestige points, getting a win over another player - whatever - there have always been people who will carry on in this manner.
As one of the moderators in this message forum, I'd advise many of you to read the board's Code of Conduct. Many of you have been breaking the rules made addressing language, insults and provocation. For these reasons alone, many of you should be subject to being silenced and penalized.
However you have all been allowed to speak, so do not try to post that anyone else should not be allowed their say too.
Search the Internet and find for me another gaming tournament that's run independently that has run as long as ToH. It doesn't exist, and that's all because Vesuvius has stuck with it all this time, in spite of the abuse he gets from players who feel they are "owed" something.
If you disagree with Vesuvius sometimes, that's fine - it's human - but show some respect, he doesn't deserve to have people flaming him and questioning his honour, he deserves a thank you.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted September 25, 2008 08:12 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
How i say before alot people here post befor think and what is piss me more they dont ever play.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. This isn't a topic about gaming strategy, its about the tournament.
I may not be active in ToH anymore, but I used to be back when rankings were updated manually, and there were so many games played each day that it was a nightmare. i played in the tournament for years, and made a lot of friends who are still active, so it is still something that means something to me, even if now its more a point of nostalgia.
When I see someone come on here and attack Vesuvius, it makes me upset. You see, from all the years that ToH has been around two things have been constant - Vesuvius has always run it, and there have always been people who will complain and lose their minds when they feel that things aren't going their way. It doesn't matter if its money, prestige points, getting a win over another player - whatever - there have always been people who will carry on in this manner.
As one of the moderators in this message forum, I'd advise many of you to read the board's Code of Conduct. Many of you have been breaking the rules made addressing language, insults and provocation. For these reasons alone, many of you should be subject to being silenced and penalized.
However you have all been allowed to speak, so do not try to post that anyone else should not be allowed their say too.
Search the Internet and find for me another gaming tournament that's run independently that has run as long as ToH. It doesn't exist, and that's all because Vesuvius has stuck with it all this time, in spite of the abuse he gets from players who feel they are "owed" something.
If you disagree with Vesuvius sometimes, that's fine - it's human - but show some respect, he doesn't deserve to have people flaming him and questioning his honour, he deserves a thank you.
Maybe my english is bad but i dont breack CC for sure. I'm perfect understand you and many other why defend VES. He deserve respect for all his work to keep ToH alive. From other side he is human. He did mistake. So how its can be rude to say "Ves did mistake and we dont agree with him".
If you look simple calcs. All prizes for clans are 525$. Its NOTING for me and i dont have car like Ves. So how you can admirate his action when 525$ is noting for him too but his NAME and ToH name cost alot more. Its not hard to understand.
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted September 25, 2008 08:21 PM |
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Have you read the posts in this thread? Do you truly believe that the only negative thing said was that Vesuvius made a mistake and should pay? If you do, I would suggest that you read it again...
As for what Vesuvius should or should not do - its entirely his decision.
Quote:
So how you can admirate his action when 525$ is noting for him too but his NAME and ToH name cost alot more
So you feel that since he has money, he should somehow feel obligated to give it away? I disagree with that.
And its his name, and the ToH name that makes so many people who don't regularly play speak up here. When you see people speaking about him and the tournament the way people have been speaking here - we speak up about it. And that's because we respect him, and this tournament. That won't change because some angry members start a fuss fest, who he is and what he stands for has been consistent through all the years of ToH, and that's why it lasts - and that's why those of us who go away will still come back when we see this sort of nonsense.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted September 25, 2008 08:22 PM |
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Quote:
Now my son is in Junior Highschool and checking out the chikas... *sigh*
THAT A BOY!!!!.....?.....!..
Plus I never think before I type
I just type whatever comes to my head LOL.
Maybe thats why I get myself in trouble.
I always know what I am talking about  .
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lord_crusader
Promising
Supreme Hero
UHU!! supreme!
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posted September 25, 2008 08:42 PM |
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Lol I though acu was about to say something like:
"is hard to use your head when typing... I mean... how can you type with the head??? maybe the nose can do the work, but the head? the key are so small" XD
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 25, 2008 08:51 PM |
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As Crag Hack wisely put it, thinking hurts too much 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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