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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Duel Tactics
Thread: Duel Tactics [ This thread is 18 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 (12) 13 14 15 16 17 18 ]
Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted May 20, 2011 06:11 AM
Edited by Elvin at 06:21, 20 May 2011.

I more or less told you how I felt about destructive in the above post If we're talking week 4 it's pretty good, longer than that it's pretty so-so. A good setup with fully buffed dwarves can often take down a phoenix on their own, just be sure to pick enlightenment regardless of your build.

Edit:

What veco said
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-ghost

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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted May 20, 2011 07:02 AM

I hear you in the boneward and seeing through my tactics....but I think he wants to get me back for the phoenix I had so he'll go summon and dark as well...

Thanks guys for your insumountable knowledge!

So think I am going to do following:

Luck - soldiers luck, protection, dwarven luck (against dark)
Dest magic - cold death (against phoenix - still think this is cool!)
Defense - Protection
Attack

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted May 20, 2011 07:17 AM

Protection is rather unnecessary, I'd get vitality->power of endurance instead. And I'd still prefer enlightenment over attack, it is already kind of a must but even more so with destructive.
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veco
veco


Legendary Hero
peek-a-boo!
posted May 20, 2011 07:18 AM

Protection from defense tree is useless here - vitality and battle frenzy are a must pick - and while at them, also grab power of endurance/speed if you ditch light magic for destr.

cheap mass buffs are worth it big time.
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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted May 20, 2011 08:23 AM

Of course, protection sucks if you have dwarven luck already....

Thanks guys for the heads-up, I really appreciate it!

Gonna kick some Naadir Necro butt now...this will be my mate's face:

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veco
veco


Legendary Hero
peek-a-boo!
posted May 20, 2011 08:38 AM

Protection sucks because it works only againts damaging spells, not curses and summons. Resistance + Dwarven luck is much, much better.
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Sometimes I feel like strangling squirrels!

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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted May 24, 2011 03:23 AM
Edited by DoubleDeck at 03:25, 24 May 2011.

Fellas, thanks very much!

I whipped his ass big time!

Went for:

Luck - soldiers luck, magic res, dwarven luck (worked well against his dark)
Enlightenment - intelligence
Attack - battle frenzy - power of speed
Defense - vitality

You know what's beuatiful is runing battlerage on thanes and watch them open up with a devastating attack!

Just something else, it's very tough to try and beat:
- Orcs with Sylvan
- Necro with Orcs (dark just messes them up, shatter dark doesn't really help)

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted May 24, 2011 07:31 AM

Quote:
Fellas, thanks very much!

I whipped his ass big time!

Went for:

Luck - soldiers luck, magic res, dwarven luck (worked well against his dark)
Enlightenment - intelligence
Attack - battle frenzy - power of speed
Defense - vitality

You know what's beuatiful is runing battlerage on thanes and watch them open up with a devastating attack!

Just something else, it's very tough to try and beat:
- Orcs with Sylvan
- Necro with Orcs (dark just messes them up, shatter dark doesn't really help)



Orcs vs sylvan is impossible to predict, starting positions of chiefs, centaurs, the two heroes, high druids, shamans and arcane archers makes for one hell of an unpredictable chain of combos. Then there is the matter of the placement of dragons, whether sylvan has swiftness/tactics or its tactics are cancelled by your own, if stormind is in play and so on.

Orcs can definitely get the upper hand, however they have to play defensively and bide their time while they gain rage and protect their key units. Destructive sylvan doesn't have very good odds but light sylvan is strong, dark sylvan is even better. But unless they have puppet AND high druid spellpower bonus it is rather winnable for the orcs, I have survived rain of frenzy situations more than once. My favourite non-rare setup for orcs is retribution, swiftness, defense, stormwind with shouting and enlightenment being pick-on-sight worthy.

Orcs can win vs necro too but you need the shatter and a healthy dose of luck. To my knowledge there are two approaches, a defensive endurance match where you play cautiously and try to outlive necro - hopefully with corrupt dark - and an all-out assault. Problem in the latter is that if necro has swift mind with puppet, you are screwed.
High risk, high pay.


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beware a monkey
-ghost

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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted May 24, 2011 09:34 AM

I'm referring to your TOH Duel 1.2 map where Sylvan cannot get 4th or 5th level dark spells, but yeah even with light magic, still find them difficult to beat orcs...maybe mass confusion on dark...problem is their chieftains and daughters are always there at the end...

Necro and Academy just laugh themselves silly when battles last long so find it difficult for orcs to "outlast" the necro troops, especially with hive, puppet and frenzy on necro....

But you know your stuff and are passionate about heroes....shot!


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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted May 27, 2011 01:32 PM bonus applied by Elvin on 27 May 2011.
Edited by SKPRIMUS at 13:34, 27 May 2011.

Haven v Inferno

Deathy said:
Quote:
so, round two in the inferno vs haven tactics.

when inferno goes a build of

Expert Dark Magic with Master of Mind and Master of Curses
Expert Attack with Battle Frenzy and Power of Speed
Expert Defense with Vitality
Expert Luck

unit combination is: Familiars,Horned Grunts,Firehounds,Succubus Seducers,Hellmares,Pit Spawns and Arch Devils.

i cannot find single method to beat it with haven. inferno will win 85% of time and only time it might lose is if haven gets lucky enough with might build to destroy most stacks before they gate.

most of the time inferno can even get unlucky with spells and still win. and if it gets forgetfullness,suffering and weakness all, it will win for sure.

ive tried pretty much everything against it: Might build(leadership,attack,defense,luck) Might with Light Magic(Leadership,Attack,Defense,Light Magic) Might with Dark(Leadership,Dark Magic,Attack,Defense) Enlightment with Dark or Light(Light/Dark Magic,Enlightment,Attack,Defense) even war machines even though that was mostly joke

Ive tried splitting paladins, all kinds of different unit combinations and still i cannot win most of the time.

Biggest chance to win is usually with Might build since i can get lucky enough to win at first round and with Enlightment build since it gives my hero ability to keep units in the game much longer and counter the dark magic.

so is inferno suppose to have such heavy advantage at this or am i just so newb that i cannot see somekind of solution?
hehe, after some delightful games with Deathy on this subject which has had me thinking for some months now, here are some [vague pre-emptive thoughts (in case it's all forgotten & no-one cares to discuss anymore).

Pray for some of the following for haven to win [best fortune-based things listed first]:

0. Crossbows before demonlord hero & seducers on starting atb ~very small chance
If starting atb is such that xbows can kill or severely reduce seducers without a divine guidance from knight hero, then rejoice in this once in a blue moon happenstance!  It means your hero can do something else on first action (instead of DG on xbows).  Those seducers are frickin dangerous & are the biggest restriction on what the knight hero can do in the first round.
Note zealots can cleanse seduction really well too.

1. Big pally stack gets morale ~50% chance
Helps it avoid being surrounded & trapped & wacked repeatedly before acting again.
ofc Morale occurring on the first 6 or 7 battle actions can really help [I've had it occur agst me once & also did it once in a test]

2. Angels hit with luck on first strike
If not hit with luck, then at least retaliate agst a big stack with luck.  IMO it's better to hit with luck than to get morale with AA's since a lucky first hit typically won't completely destroy a stack so damage is not wasted & retaliation will be much less.

3. No mass suffering for inferno ~38% chance [1/2 x 7/8 x 7/8]
Those unanswered curses/debuffs really hurt by the end...especially mass suffering.  Mass confusion is also painful esp with grunts leaping long distances with luck but not as bad since most of haven's dmg is by the big units.

4. No puppet master for inferno ~25% chance
Don't you wish those lvl 5 mass dmg spells were back in?

5. Much better fortune with artis ~ less than 50% chance
Trouble is demonlord hero has more artis that can be useful.  Haven hero needs attack artis while knowledge artis have marginal use unless they make a significant difference & spellpower/leadership artis are almost useless.

6. Levelling stuff-ups for demonlord
It can happen when going for 4 or 5 important perks.
On the flip side, dark revelation allows demonlord to have an extra skill/perk plus 1 more stat from expert enlight - talk about adding insult to injury!

7. Stat distribution of heroes during level-up
Just hope enemy demonlord hero has really low defence & spellpower & his highest stat is in knowledge.
Alternatively I've seen one battle agst me where haven hero without enlight had double-digit in atk & def because levelling up 18 levels did not provide it a single sp or knowledge stat!

8. Protect xbows from threats
It can happen that near the end, the difference can be due to those xbows being able to shoot.  Being able to link up pally lay on hands with another pally stack or angel stack is also nice near the end.

9. Doggies not lined up with xbows ~50% chance
Those pesky hell-hounds with their triple dragon-breath attack can quickly ruin your day, esp with a lucky strike killing heaps of xbow & support units.

10. Haven will have to kill virtually all stacks - real & gated
Forget the notion of concentrating only on the real stacks.  It will be very rare that haven wins whilst inferno forces (including gates) are significantly more powerful.

11. Stack splitting will have to be done
Bringing all 7 levels into battle just doesn't work, unless one is reaaally lucky with xbows acting on atb before demonlord & seducers.  Funnily splitting a stack is also required agst haven's other nemesis (necro).  Haven has only 4 big damage stacks here imo.  The others are just support.

Additional notes:
A. I've avoided detailing hero builds here.  It depends on artis & hero stat distribution & I'm sure everyone has their own opinions.  There are extreme tactics which might work too.

B. Albo's map doesn't appear to include the 10% gating bonus for inferno loom building - sounds good to me as gates are 40% instead of 50% of original stack.

C. I just noticed today the map Good Old Duel 1.1 appears to have the heroes gain additional 1st & 2nd lvl spells from the town in which they start from before being teleported...This appears to be advantageous for inferno in this matchup...Luckily I didn't take this into account when deciding demonlord build in our games.

No doubt Deathy has more better thoughts  At least I can take comfort where inferno has problems vs sylvan...
I'm not even sure if the demonlord build Deathy mentioned is even the optimal here in all cases [I'm sure it's less than 15% chance for haven to win, expecially if I'm haven]
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted May 27, 2011 01:38 PM

Excellent post mate
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beware a monkey
-ghost

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted May 27, 2011 01:51 PM

Thanks Elvin, you know I love this thread! I originally thought just brief point but it expanded in explanation...plus Deathy deserves some credit as he said & put in practice some things even more advanced that I haven't mentioned [plus I never got to win as haven...he did]
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted May 27, 2011 01:56 PM

Yeah he sure knows a few things about the game. In the end though this post shows how random H5 truly is, especially some matchups. No amount of skill can overcome a impeccable timing sometimes.

Either way I fully believe that H5 would be more balanced without seducers and high druids, those two introduce great balance problems.
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beware a monkey
-ghost

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unifex
unifex


Hired Hero
posted May 31, 2011 08:24 PM

Ned some help setting up Duel mode please

Wow this is an amazing thread - Im new to this site and actually didnt even realise there was a 'duel' mode. Also some of the strats and tactics are incredibly impressive - showing the potential of attributes which I had no idea could be so effective.

At this stage the site wont let me start a new thread due to my noobness I guess. So I was wondering if someone could kindly point me in the right direction with some info on duel mode.

A couple of noob questions, can I actually play in duel mode versus AI, and do I need to download and instal a mod? Re wanting to play against AI Im just not good enough for PvP so hoopefully duel versus AI is possible.

Will be gr8t news if duel versus AI is possible, this will help keep me busy until HoMMvi in Sep!

Cheers and thanks for reading...

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted May 31, 2011 08:40 PM

Hello there H5 does have a duel mode but this is not what this thread is about. I have created a series of 'duel' maps where you can customize your hero from scratch since the original duel mode not only has poor balance but heroes have preset artifacts/skills/armies too.

Some of my maps along with arena can be found here. Arena has similar principles and probably better balance but it is more about planning and micromanagement than the battle itself since you must spend your gold carefully between levels, artifacts and army - you cannot have it all.

I am not sure how duel map works against the AI since it was designed mostly for human vs human. At worst you could level up both sides and put one player on autocombat I suppose but I'd suggest playing someone if possible. So many strategies and combos are wasted on the AI while you can always learn something new against a human. There is a random duels thread around here to ask people though most are sadly inactive.

Either way I hope you have fun while waiting for H6 Oh and about you being unable to start a thread, it requires one post first. There was a matter of ad bots sometime back, long story..
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-ghost

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unifex
unifex


Hired Hero
posted May 31, 2011 08:51 PM

Hi Elvin, thank you for such a quick and detailed reply - really appreciate it. OK I am off to check things out as per your suggestion .... cheers!
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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 01, 2011 07:12 AM

it seems scripts don't work when I try the duel map against the AI?

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted June 01, 2011 08:00 AM

The map has a number of scripts on its own but somehow tampering with them or adding new ones can have unpredictable consequences. It can either work or break some of the previous ones.
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beware a monkey
-ghost

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veco
veco


Legendary Hero
peek-a-boo!
posted June 01, 2011 08:16 AM

Quote:
It can either work or break some of the previous ones.





Good times
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Sometimes I feel like strangling squirrels!

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Einstien76
Einstien76

Tavern Dweller
posted June 02, 2011 04:22 AM

What I would do is to pull the Nightmares with Harpooners one tile and make an opening for ThunderThanes with rune of BattleRage
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