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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Duel Tactics
Thread: Duel Tactics [ This thread is 18 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 (9) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 ]
Deathy
Deathy


Known Hero
Angels Galore
posted March 26, 2011 09:16 PM

now that inferno is part of talk in this topic, i really want to know what is haven suppose to do against inferno in general in the duel map?

basically i can only see three options, first is that you charge across field with paladins in first round and lucky one shot either the devils or pit spawns/lords, then kill possible seducers as fast as possible which will cripple inferno heavily

second is getting enlightment, since getting it guarantees enough mana so that familiars cannot drain it all.

third is that you get enough knowledge artifacts to achieve the same you did with enlightment.

all these methods are way too much based on luck and chance and you can't really use them reliably.

because seriously, familiars and the gated ones can drain over 50 mana, which is more than enough to empty haven's mana pool completely usually. after that inferno hero can pretty much destroy haven with dark magic, since even paladins can't cleanse it all, especially if they are the target of puppet.

best counter against inferno would be go to dark magic too but it's simply impossible to have any mana to use it effectively and then you just get destroyed by dark magic yourself. what can haven actually do then, other than rely on luck?

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted March 26, 2011 09:26 PM

You do not actually need mana to defeat inferno and full charge won't always work. Myself I prefer splitting the paladins for cleansing and hero does 1-2 casts, then switches to divine guidance and plays defensively. Not a fail-prood plan but a normally effective one.
____________
I gotta say I'm starting to feel
a bit elitist now that the qp
starts to sink into my
subconscius.
- Veco

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 26, 2011 10:17 PM

well, bliz just proved me than fortress can beat inferno. he went destro (he was the demon lord), though I'm not sure it was a serious build, given that he couldn't counter my mass buffs and mass curses.

I turtled, and I think my rune patriarches did most of the work, he couldn't reach them. cross attack worked wonderfully.

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Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted March 27, 2011 07:14 AM

Well 2 things are wrong with your assesment Fauch. Actually 3.
1. I never said that Fortress can't beat Inferno. I'm just saying that for people on equal skill levels it's the fortress players game to lose
2. "and mass curses" so you had Dark Magic? Dark Magic on dwarfs is extremely powerful. And as powerful as it may be it's got a 2% chance of showing itself so it's not an reliable option
3.He went Destro.
____________
"The superior man is modest in
his speech but exceeds in his
actions." Confucius

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Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted March 27, 2011 07:15 AM

4. You played Bboy...
____________
"The superior man is modest in
his speech but exceeds in his
actions." Confucius

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 27, 2011 08:13 AM
Edited by Fauch at 08:16, 27 Mar 2011.

I had no idea it had such a low chance to pop up. saw curse and weakness in my guild, so I prayed for it.

bliz probably still has more experience than me, I've finished 3 onlines games so far

his deep freeze still dealt over 500 damage I think, that's what allowed him to do most of his kills, but I would probably have feared mass dark or mass light more of course.

oh, and it was quite a confortable win. if he had picked archdemons and attracted my patriarches, then I would have been in trouble.

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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted March 29, 2011 08:47 AM
Edited by DoubleDeck at 08:57, 29 Mar 2011.

I agree, Runemage is difficult exactly which build to go for.

The other factions all have the known attributes that grow and therefore the "must" builds:

- Faction Attribute (skill)

- Haven Defense (defense)
- Ranger Defense (luck)
- Wizard Knowledge (summ. magic)
- Warlock Spellpower (Dest. magic)
- Necromancer Spellpower (Dark magic)
- Demon Lord Attack (attack)
- Barbarian Attack (attack)

But remember all that Dwarves have the highest hitpoints combined with weekly growth....not individually, but combined.

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted March 29, 2011 08:55 AM

Not quite true. There are good skills to have, medium or plain bad according to the circumstances but 'must'.. Maybe defense for inferno vs most factions but that hardly has to do with playing on their strength, rather covering their obvious weakness.
____________
I gotta say I'm starting to feel
a bit elitist now that the qp
starts to sink into my
subconscius.
- Veco

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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted March 29, 2011 09:02 AM

Quote:
Not quite true. There are good skills to have, medium or plain bad according to the circumstances but 'must'.. Maybe defense for inferno vs most factions but that hardly has to do with playing on their strength, rather covering their obvious weakness.


Defense for Inferno might not get offered.

These "must" skills are all above 10% in offering....

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Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted March 29, 2011 09:25 AM

The >15% skills are either skills that help the faction or skills that they're good at using but they most certainly aren't must haves. The must have skills are actually more often than none the "2%" skills. But realisticly looking at things the must haves are the skills that cover your weakness. For example defense with Inferno whether it's 8% is pretty much irrelevant since Inferno needs it quite desperately in any matchup really.
____________
"The superior man is modest in
his speech but exceeds in his
actions." Confucius

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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted March 29, 2011 09:43 AM

Quote:
The >15% skills are either skills that help the faction or skills that they're good at using but they most certainly aren't must haves. The must have skills are actually more often than none the "2%" skills. But realisticly looking at things the must haves are the skills that cover your weakness. For example defense with Inferno whether it's 8% is pretty much irrelevant since Inferno needs it quite desperately in any matchup really.


We are talking about probabilities as well as strengths here....

The only 2% that would rock the party:

Warlock - leadership -> empathy
Demon Lord - leadership -> swarming gate
Demon Lord - light magic

But the 2% that suck:

Wizard - attack/defense
Warlock - light magic
Necromancer - leadership/light magic
Knight - enlightment/sorcery/dest magic/summ magic
Ranger - dark magic/summ magic
Runemage - sorcery/dark magic
Barbarian - shout

So not sure what you mean saying the "musts" would be the 2%, this is only for a minority....







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Deathy
Deathy


Known Hero
Angels Galore
posted March 29, 2011 10:17 AM
Edited by Deathy at 10:18, 29 Mar 2011.

It's obvious your not very experienced in this game.

Enlightment on Knight sucks? i would kill for the chance to get enlightment in every duel i play with Haven. have you ever faced Knight hero that has 20 defense and like 12 or more attack? ill guarantee that factions capable of taking down haven hero like that through might are very few in this game. not to mention having Enlightment + Light Magic actually makes Haven hero capable caster by using Resurrection effectively for example. AND actually gives enough mana that Inferno Familiars aren't capable of draining you empty in first round.

Shout useless on Barbarians? have you ever seen Barbarian hero spamming horde's anger or fear my roar with shout? i would love to be able to spam more shouts constantly in duels.

Dark Magic useless on Rangers and Runemages? i would rather say they are more effective with them than even Necromancers are. Have fun trying to take down Fortress or Sylvan that is capable of spamming Suffering,Slow,Confusion and Weakness on your units.

Defense useless on Wizards? every time i play Academy against Haven or Inferno for example, i outright hope that defense will show up because you will get run over so fast without it.

these are just few examples of 2% skills that are far better than you think. you just need to know the situation in where to use them properly. but most of all, alot of these skills either fix a massive weakness that faction has(enlightment fixes low spellpower and knowledge/mana for haven for example while also boosting their already massive might stats) or further boost their massive strenght in some places(fortress being incredibly hard to take down when they have dark magic for example)

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Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted March 29, 2011 10:30 AM

Ok I'll make this as simple as possible:
Warlock you said yourself that the hero should go destro. Why destro? Because you deal a lot of damage with your hero. What supplements that? You can only cast as long as your units are alive. What keeps your units alive longer? Defense. Ergo defense on a Warlock is a dream come true.

Similar things go with the other factions as well.
____________
"The superior man is modest in
his speech but exceeds in his
actions." Confucius

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 29, 2011 10:57 AM

as long as you have mana too

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intelligence
intelligence


Adventuring Hero
The Sacred Guardian
posted March 29, 2011 11:23 AM

ranger with dark + rain of arrows + frenzy = super-happy-fun time!
____________
No great genius has ever existed
without some touch of madness.
-Aristotle


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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted March 29, 2011 11:30 AM

Quote:
...i would kill for the chance to get enlightment in every duel i play with Haven...
@Deathy, it's possible that enlight may not be a "necessary" skill vs inferno.. but sure if you can get your hero levelling perfectly & end up with basic enlight as the last skill point out of 23 without wasting too much money on mentor, then yeah!

I'd say the 2% skills/perks that can rock a party are demonlord with empathy (from leadership + enlight) & light but even then that doesn't guarantee a win all the time.  However academic preparation (from defence + attack) may also rock too.

I'll also add that my first two wins vs Elvin were as dwarves vs inferno ...Runemages are not too hard to build if you are a beginner to medium skilled player
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted March 29, 2011 11:44 AM

Well said, particularly deathy. Also..
Quote:

But the 2% that suck:

Wizard - attack/defense
Warlock - light magic
Necromancer - leadership/light magic
Knight - enlightment/sorcery/dest magic/summ magic
Ranger - dark magic/summ magic
Runemage - sorcery/dark magic
Barbarian - shout

Almost every single one of those is actually awesome. Soce cases where it is 'just' good like light for necro/dungeon(lategame, mainly for stormwind but also mass cleansing/RM/haste) and only a few weak ones like necromancer with leadership(actually herald of death + diplomacy is AWESOME but not on all maps) and knight with sorcery. Destructive knight however.. Fiery wrath + cold death.. that can be quite a lot if you add retribution.. I'd prefer light or dark but still. Summoning knight does suck though unless you get good timing with phantom forces. Nothing like watching a huge stack of palies get cloned to completely demolish an enemy's stack
____________
I gotta say I'm starting to feel
a bit elitist now that the qp
starts to sink into my
subconscius.
- Veco

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Deathy
Deathy


Known Hero
Angels Galore
posted March 29, 2011 12:35 PM
Edited by Deathy at 12:44, 29 Mar 2011.

Quote:
Quote:
...i would kill for the chance to get enlightment in every duel i play with Haven...
@Deathy, it's possible that enlight may not be a "necessary" skill vs inferno.. but sure if you can get your hero levelling perfectly & end up with basic enlight as the last skill point out of 23 without wasting too much money on mentor, then yeah!

I'd say the 2% skills/perks that can rock a party are demonlord with empathy (from leadership + enlight) & light but even then that doesn't guarantee a win all the time.  However academic preparation (from defence + attack) may also rock too.

I'll also add that my first two wins vs Elvin were as dwarves vs inferno ...Runemages are not too hard to build if you are a beginner to medium skilled player


well i never outright meant you would NEED enlightment against inferno to be able to win.(after all i even gave 3 different options and asked for more ) however in the matchup i feel that Inferno has the advantage initially, but if haven is capable of getting enlightment, that advantage is nullified, because it opens alot more working strategies for haven. like dark magic for example which haven would now be capable of casting alot longer time even despite familiars draining mana and which generally is problem for inferno unless they get light magic which they usually don't.

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Jabanoss
Jabanoss


Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
posted March 29, 2011 01:19 PM

Also folks, never forget that the unorthodox builds are almost always the most fun.
Might Academy is disturbingly fun. XD
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"Oooh Jaba" - Meroe

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted March 29, 2011 01:22 PM

Wait till you try the armageddon knight Requirements: Light->Fire resistance. Destructive->master of fire(possibly ignite). Empathy or sorcery. Phoenix cape.

Hilarious ^^
____________
I gotta say I'm starting to feel
a bit elitist now that the qp
starts to sink into my
subconscius.
- Veco

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