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zaio-baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 08, 2011 01:27 PM |
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and how about swift mind + divine guidance + storm wind with haven vs academy - i think that gargs and jinns will most likely not be able to block the champs charge
anyways, about the rare skills - if aca is able to get the 2% chance defence almost always, why haven cant get the enlightenment?
and finally - i think it will be a good idea, if an experienced player
( elvin  ) makes something like a test - picks aca 10 times and tries to get the defence, then picks haven 10 times and tries to get enlightenment ( in a duel map ofc) , then pick dungeons and goes for dark and etc - imo that will show us how often we should expect a rare skill when facing a good opponent, and also i think that the chances to have the desired 2% skill till lvl 20 are much higher than 2%, becouse in my duels against him i just felt that he always have defence with academy :X
p.s
which was the most balanced heroes V version ? imo in tote necro is just way to weak ( just make a comparison between aca and necro in 3.1 and 2.1 - in 3.1 aca can get storm wind from light ( that hits ghosts, vamps, dragons and phoenix) and necro cant get something that has the same inpact on academy which means that if this matchup was balanced in 2.1 ( no storm wind for aca) than its not balanced in 3.1)
and then - talking about balance - aca may boost the init of its stacks ( quite easy) and may block charges - lets say from haven, sylvan , and when haven and sylvan have storm wind, necros best init unit ( lvl 6 with 11 init) is the only one that has more init that 10
in necros army - almost no chance to block ....
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Deathy
Known Hero
Angels Galore
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posted January 08, 2011 04:24 PM |
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i think people seriously underrestimate the 2% chance for certain skills to appear.
in the last 4 games or so ive played with haven, ive gotten enlightment every single time without help from witch huts.
of course something like defense will appear more often but it doesn't remove the fact that there is pretty decent chance to get enlightment with haven.
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted January 08, 2011 05:16 PM |
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@zaio-baio: Elvin's duel maps allows for heaps of money left over for mentoring so it's actually very easy to get even 2 or more rare skills. Most of times I can't be bothered mentoring too much for 2 or 3 x 2% skills as opponent is waiting for me
Exception is Haven [ofc] because the extra money can go towards training zealots [you aren't the only one to max train before] while others can't abuse the extra money that much.
Elvin's game is bugged, I get the WORST luck out of any opponent when playing him 
Else if you want less 2% skills, play another map like albolabris' Arena or TOH Arena or one of the older ones where you buy artifacts from artifact merchant 
Academy lacking defence skill plus low hero defence stat can make a bad game in some circumstances (esp vs orcs) - there are always plus & minus to these things.
Unfortunately, balancing enlightenment stat bonuses & 2% skills for all factions are an issue in TOTE at higher hero levels.
I think others can answer your other questions...maybe you read Towerlord's aca vs nec post elsewhere [it was good ]
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus 
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted January 08, 2011 07:24 PM |
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Quote:
imo that will show us how often we should expect a rare skill when facing a good opponent
Sorry Zaio but that's utter nonsense. A "good" opponent can't bend random chance to his will. No one can that's why it's random. The only thing you can do is increase the probability. You can get 5 skills apart from your racial. So what do you have to do to increase the chance of a 2% perk to show up? Pick the perks with the "high" proability as early as possible if it's adviseable.
Take the Knight for example:
If you Pick Defense, Leadership, Attack and Light Magic very early you have 1 slot left for which an ability can show up. What remains?
With a 2% to show up: Sorcery, Summoing Magic, Destruction Magic and Enlightenment
With 8%: Dark Magic, Luck, Logistics
With 10%: War Machines
See what I mean? On Elvins Duel Map it would mean that you would have atleast 16 Levels in which only the skills above can be offered to you as a new and final 5th skill.
Same logic applies to "normal" leveling where you want certain perks to show up. You just have to be smart and narrow down your choices (sounds simple but you'd be surprised to find out that even tiptop ToH players don't get it).
So how do you level efficiently? You do it by consciously limiting what perks you can be offered. There are two ways to do this:
1. Limiting the perks that can be offered to you within the specific ability tree.
2. Limiting the overall number of perks that are offered to you.
Let's take the Babarian for example let's say you want "Divine Guidance" and "Retribution".
In order to understand this better you should open your skillwheel.
1. Limiting perks within the tree
Let's assume you already have Battle Elation, Battle Frenzy and Advanced Bloodrage.
Now what do you do? Get advanced attack as soon as reasonbly possible (reasonably is key here so don't drop something like Enlightenment for it for example just because you're in a rush.) sounds plain but people have failed more often than you know...now "Powerful Blow" comes up and you go "oh yeah I need it" (shorsighted as you were before reading my genius advice) so you take it. Now you get Expert attack and look what happend. Before you picked "Powerful Blow" "Retribution" was 1 out of 3 things that the Attack tree could offer you. After you picked "Powerful Blow" Retribution suddenly becomes a 1 out of 4 chance. You might think (which you shouldn't because that means you don't take my word for the liquid gold that it is! But there's always a wiseguy...) that it isn't a big deal because you need "Stunning Blow" anyways but that's wrong. It's not about getting the skills it's about getting them efficiently in order to get every edge possible over your opponent so that you get the right skills (remember you might not always have the luxury of an mentor and the money to afford it). Not to mention that the 1/4 isn't a 25% chance. The game has a habit of constanly offering you stuff that originats from a racial perk so Stunning Blow and Excruciating strike will show up a lot. So how do you avoid that? Now think how do you solve the Excruciating Strike prolem aaand the "Retribution"-not-being-offered-fast-enough problem? That's right don't think continue reading I'll tell you:
Get Retribution first and then "Stunning Blow"! Easy.
2. Limiting the overall perks offered
Now obviously you might not always be offered to advance attack in order to free space for the perks you want so let's say you're offered Expert Leadership or Basic Defense together with 2 Perks you don't need (you don't have Retribution yet). Pre-reading-my-sexy-sexy-advice-you would pick Leadership. WRONG why? Because now you free up space for Leadership perks to clogg up the perk section when you level up. You can't get Divine Guidance before you get Stunning blow and as I already explained getting Stunning Blow first is unefficient. So now "Aura of Speed" keeps showing up which just ruins your day. So why is defense a better pick? It also offers perks that clogg up the Perk section. But let's say you're facing Haven and you also want "Vitality" and "Evasion" you simply wanted Divine Guidance and Retribution first. So now once a defensive perk (either of those 2) pops up you can pick it and suddenly you both have something you wanted and you have limited the number of perks that can be offered from other abilities (key is that you DON'T take advanced defense before you have finished the Retribution,Divine Guidance business) and Leadership won't bug you with Aura of Swiftness before you it absolutely has to (read: Before you have the prerequests for Divine Guidance). So in short: the more abilities you pick without picking a perk in them the higher the chance becomes of unwanted perks swarming your perk section. So think before you pick.
It may sound a bit complicated in all text form but open the skillwheel follow my steps and you'll see what I mean. It's pretty simple to understand once you get the idea.
This concept is a divine golden principle not a golden rule meaning that you can deviate from it from time to time but only in rare cases really since this concept is obviously very effective. But still sometimes it just doesn't work because that $@#! game just won't offered you what you want no matter how much you limit the options.
If the concept of "Smart Leveling" isn't clear to you yet ask me what you don't understand (eventhough you should understand everything since my explanation skills are only second to Satan himself.)
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted January 08, 2011 08:31 PM |
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Azagal is S.M.A.R.T. Less chatting more battling
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Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.
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zaio-baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 08, 2011 08:55 PM |
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yep azzie, and thx for the info
when i still played duels i didnt knew that, learn it later, but still i was able to get the 2% skills somewhat intuitively ( like in your exampe it seemed to me logically to pick defence and not max leadership)
anyways, i think that x of 10 is the best way to see how often a player can get the rare skill that he needs, given he has 20 lvls to do so ( in this case we get an idea of how often this happens) and im saying that cuz i was surpraised how often i was able to get the enlightenment with haven, even without using the mentor ( 33 zealots rocks, u know )
however, im not sure if the game will show 2 skills to pick, if u already have mastered 5 ( + the native ), i think it will give u only one option, but i may be wrong - havent played homm V since a very long time sadly
and then - i somewhat feel that the balance is broken, and thatswhy some factions just have overall a better chance to win imo, also - in tote everyone was the chance to get everything - for me that just screws up the whole concept ( example - storm wind was bound to sylvan - its a nature oriented faction, that makes sense, but it tote every single faction that get light magic can have it ( adds variations, true, but what about the story, why should haven, or fortress, or warlocks be able to have it too ?). In terms of perks tote seems to me as a fan made mod, that has nothing to do with the real game.And what is pissing me off about this game is that ( imo ) till 2.1 everything about the story was much more logical - i just feel that the game development was on the right "way", imo it would be much better, if the guys had made new perks for every faction - the same variety as now, but with theme oriented skills, not just messing everything up ...
still, elvins duel map is great, but if im going to play something else than a duel i prefere 2.1
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 08, 2011 11:46 PM |
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More or less what Azzie said. If you know skills you can manipulate the odds to your benefit, here's an easier way. Want desperately a specific 8% skill? Just lvl up your racial and your starting skill and it will appear within the first 5-10 levels - or first 15 if you are VERY VERY VERY unlucky. Do you want to get luck with haven? Never pick it until you've gotten retribution, empathy and your favoured spell abilities, it is almost certain that it will mess up your levelling. But you can bet it will appear later, it's a safe risk. Do you want a ability like teleport assault with inferno? While I would advice against it there is an easier way to ensure it. Get logistics in the first few/several level ups and pick pathfinding/consume corpse the moment they appear. If you do that before lvl 10 teleport assault will eventually appear, however if you pick logs a little later I can almost guarantee your build will be messed up. And so on.
@zaio-baio
Stormwind does give trouble to djinns and gargoyles but you have init arties for that. Any bet that one of them will play before champions if you have decent knowledge. Rare skills are actually not so rare if you can build a lvl 20 hero not to mention the 2 witch huts. Hell you could erase your starting skills and keep erasing for 500 gold till you get the skill you want, wouldn't cost you much. But that would be really lame and annoying. You don't need to play 10 games, I can simply tell you that the rare skills are pretty common in the long run. Imagine that for one year I got enlightenment with orcs every single time and I played them a lot.
About best balance that's hard to tell. Academy did get an edge over necro but also became more balanced against sylvan due to stormwind.. Inferno was boosted, haven's earlygame thankfully improved.. I think the only thing that really changed in tote is that things became a little more creative, most factions got extra possibilities that they did not have but at the same time the wheel became a little more chaotic.
And necro does NOT need to block. You have enlightenment, defense and power of endurance, you won't go down anytime soon. Unless the opponent is insanely lucky with extreme attack, luck and timing but that does not happen often.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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zaio-baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 12, 2011 12:36 AM |
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dunno, swift mind + storm wind + divine guid/ mass righteous/mass endurance seem to me a good combo for haven vs necro/aca , way safer then the more offensive familiar ground + " i hope he doesnt have dark + swift mind" 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 12, 2011 01:00 AM |
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Certainly is. Familiar ground is awesome for sylvan though
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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zaio-baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 12, 2011 01:28 AM |
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well tactics/swiftness + swift mind + mass righteous/ seem better for sylvan ?
btw how good is warpath exactly ? mb war path + familiar > swift mind for haven in some rare cases
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Duncan
Famous Hero
The Pathfinder
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posted January 12, 2011 03:19 AM |
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What impact does war path has during battle?
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But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it.
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zaio-baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 12, 2011 01:27 PM |
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well on the duel map - the same as familiar ground -> all the battles are on terains that arent native for the both factions
anyways, rutger + warpath and familiar ground is just pain in the neck, but only vs factions that dont have dark ( try to block a 10speed pallie/champ charge ).If the faction has dark , but also has 2% chance for logistics/swift mind ( academy), then familiar + warpath for haven > swift mind ( doesnt matter if the artificed lvl 2 will act before or after the charge, they cant do anything)
also, ive noticed that one must use the advantige if the perks that academy cant get -> for instance - > 2% chance for att/def/logistics -> which means that in most of the cases aca will have only one of those skills ( most likely defence), cuz anyways 2 magis skills + enlight+sorcery leave only one slot left ->
-> so its essencial for haven to get tactics + swift mind/familiar ground -> the pallies/champs will be able to charge almost at will
the other skills should be imo leadership + light/dark and haven has pretty good chances
and yes - > swift mind works both offensively and defensively ->
swift mind + divine guidance -> champs kill 2 stacks before the opponents hero turn comes , however vs academy it may work only with storm wind, becouse otherwise the fast fliers will block it ( btw a 10 init garg + 50% bonus from arti - 20% from storm wind = 12 init, and normally u wont have more than 20-25 knowledge )
another good stuff for haven ->
swift mind + mass righteous -> in this case the initial charges hurt 60% more, however the sylvan's units are too fast and they cant fully benefit from this combo, sometimes having slower creatures is an advantage
defensively, imo, swift mind shines vs every dark faction ( great if u puppet the familiars just before their turn comes ), but also great vs sylvan -> just get storm wind too(for the init penalty, not for the speed) and u will be able to cast mass endurance before the heavy hitters reach you
btw does anyone know if a puppeted unit does still have morale ? have watched a lot of replays, but havent seen puppeted unit go get positive/negative morale after its action
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 12, 2011 02:31 PM |
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Warpath just gives extra map movement, not much use in combat.
Quote:
defensively, imo, swift mind shines vs every dark faction
Well.. If dark user has high spellpower and pulls off a good frenzy/puppet or the opposite mass spell you could have trouble. Possible exception sylvan where one puppet won't stop the rest from swiftly slaughtering your army.
Quote:
btw does anyone know if a puppeted unit does still have morale ?
Pretty sure I have seen it but cannot remember if that was in tote.
Pretty much agreed on the rest.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Duncan
Famous Hero
The Pathfinder
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posted January 14, 2011 09:18 AM |
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I've been testing and playing duels with my buddy on hot seat, and I somewhat have to conclude this, so cmiiw: Enlightenment is a must.
I mean, at level 19, Exp. Enlightenment will give you 9 (or 10?) additional skill points. In a normal game play, even in a balanced map, getting skill points from structures would vary depending on playing style (rushing, turtling etc). But there's no such thing in duel map, hence such conclusion.
Thing is, I've never been able to defeat my buddy if I prefer other skills at the expense of Enlightenment. I kept persisting a game after another, but the results won't deny. On some it was even humiliating, without me being able to even harm him 
So please help enhancing my skill, under what condition Enlightenment can be sacrificed for a duel? I will try any suggestion and report you back here.
____________
But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it.
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted January 14, 2011 09:25 AM |
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Edited by SKPRIMUS at 10:04, 14 Jan 2011.
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demonlord, knight & orc are the prime candidates in Elvin's latest maps & ofc they would depend on the opponent that they are facing & sometimes which artis are available to cover shortfalls like for example low knowledge [imho, certainly not an expert]
edit: ofc I can't forget how Zenithale (the elite know their stuff!) defeated me without enlight
[replay was posted here, but you have to click on a smiley
...but you might need Elvin's Order Duel in map folder to view it
[I've got a copy in case you don't get it from Elvin]
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus
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Duncan
Famous Hero
The Pathfinder
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posted January 14, 2011 10:47 AM |
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Got it, and much appreciated. Will have a look on it this evening.
Elvin's Duel Map is the one I've been using.
____________
But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it.
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zaio-baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 14, 2011 11:11 AM |
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light/dark cover the enlightenment - > mass endurance/mass righteous
example - > lvl 20 , enlightenment over defence for a knight, + 4 att + 6 defence from the skill, u cast one mass endurance on your units and u already have 12 + 6 defence = 18 defence
case 2 u have defence as skill ( no enlightenmen), u cast mass endurance and u have 12 defence + 30% damage reduction
and thats without the bonuses from hero/arties
with them ( at lvl 20, lets say the knight should have 9 def + 5-6 def from items -> 15 def + 18 ( case 1 ) = 33 defence, no 30% dmg reduction
and case 2 - 27 def but with 30% dmg reduction
you do the math, defencively case 2 is much better, however 40 mana vs a magic faction just sux, so enlightenment is a must in a lot of cases
and dark -> via mass suffering/mass weakness -> the same thing
the best thing is to combine enlightenment + defence ( great on elvins duel map, cuz logistics there just dont give, what they would give on any other map), also enlight + def is 100 times better then luck + defence, ( only exception is vs dungeon, when u just need to do as much dmg as possible whithin few turns)
the sweet ( and shiny) part is that enlightenment gives the bonuses direkt from the start ( u dont need to cast in order to have them) and is thatswhy a great stuff for haven vs sylvan, the charges may (swift mind + storm wind + mass endurance/divine guidance do wonders) come before ur 1st cast and do some decent dmg
enlightenment for academy - a must, not only the great mana and the better spellpower but also better arties
for dungeon -> again, but only if i dont have enough mana ( and if u get arcane exellence, u will have + 100 mana, 1 battle = 1 game, this skill is just so damn great here, have in mind that its normally offered early in a non duel game ( aca/dung, magic factions need sorcery fast, so chances are that u will have it at lvl 10, while the final battle will be at lvl 20 ( it firstly drains the mana from arcane excellence  ), so not much useful there, but great for duels)
so yeah, better get sorcery + might skill, then sorcery + enlightenment
for orcs - + 10% hp for one battle, nc for the power on the duel map
( what are the chances that u will not have more fights/ or u wont be forced to fight with a scout, before u get to the battle with the real army ?
for sylvan -> yes, great stuff, just have light/destr
for fortress -> great too
for necro - > great again
actually, i always get it( or aim for it ) on a duel map, on other maps, however , i prefere logistics - enlight bonuses are heavily focused on the final batter ( and only on it), while logistics gives u bonus all the way till there ( basically u end up with more mana, more att/def then with enlightenment)
also always pick defence + enlightenment with a might faction vs dark, the luck skill turns very fast agains you
its great to start a battle with 0 luck vs dark casters ( ive seen already so lame combos, like first hit the powerstack with the gost dragons (- 4 morale/-4 luck) , eat the heavy retaliatin, and then, when ur hero turn comes, cast puppet master on the same ( already broken ) stack smart
then, att + retribution gives 40% increased dmg, while 6 lvls spent in luck give +30 %, besides, try to compare any of the luck's perks
to tactics/power of haste/battle frenzy - not even close ( exept for dwarfs )
also, ive never seen a puppeted/frenzied unit to get a good morale ->
-> no morale means no retribution bonus, just great vs dark casters , while luck works great both with and agains you
p.s
defensively, imo, swift mind shines vs every dark faction -> what i meant here, was using the bonus to cast mass endurance, in case ,that
the opponents turn comes before the turns of pallys/angels
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 14, 2011 12:03 PM |
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Quote:
light/dark cover the enlightenment
No they don't, enlightenment + light or dark >> light + dark
Quote:
for dungeon -> again, but only if i dont have enough mana ( and if u get arcane exellence, u will have + 100 mana, 1 battle = 1 game, this skill is just so damn great here, have in mind that its normally offered early in a non duel game ( aca/dung, magic factions need sorcery fast, so chances are that u will have it at lvl 10, while the final battle will be at lvl 20 ( it firstly drains the mana from arcane excellence ), so not much useful there, but great for duels)
so yeah, better get sorcery + might skill, then sorcery + enlightenment
You might think that's a good idea at first. But if you start with enlightenment, logistics and destructive you'll be able to creep at a VASTLY faster rate. Multiplayer tested.
Quote:
for orcs - + 10% hp for one battle, nc for the power on the duel map
That's why it's modified to give 1% extra hp
Quote:
also always pick defence + enlightenment with a might faction vs dark, the luck skill turns very fast agains you
Quote:
also, ive never seen a puppeted/frenzied unit to get a good morale ->
-> no morale means no retribution bonus
Incorrect. If a unit has +x morale it gets retribution bonus whether it gets morale or not.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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zaio-baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 14, 2011 01:09 PM |
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+6-7 def while u have 10 def - +60-70% increase
+6-7 def while u have 22 def - +20-30% increase ( yes, the other 12 def comes from mass endurance, which will be casted anyway)
+1 % - great, was needed imo (:, but also shows that i havent played recently 
and about retribution - if the morale doesnt trigger, there is pretty high chance, that the units just have 0 morale while they are puppetted or frenzied,and if they have 0 -> no retrib bonus, i never meant that a unit gets + dmg from retribution only when its morale triggers :X
i also have rewatched some of the replays, and i just sow again that a creture with 5 morale, while beeing puppeted, just dont get morale at all, same snow with the frenzy spell -> isnt that weird ? And if the morale is nullified that isnt shown on the creature's status bar, anyways, chances are that there is something wrong.
edit: sorcery + might skill for dungeon was about the duel map
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Maciek
Known Hero
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posted January 15, 2011 04:30 PM |
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I tested it with my tote 3.1 and creatures under pm can get good morale, here. In the replay you can see pm-ed treants getting good morale twice.
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This thread is pages long: 
