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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~ This Super Thread is 525 pages long: 1 70 140 ... 148 149 150 151 152 ... 210 280 350 420 490 525 · «PREV / NEXT»
Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted February 06, 2011 12:10 AM
Edited by Zenofex at 00:11, 06 Feb 2011.

Quote:
Not sure where that idea came from, since mythologically the naga is a four-armed human with a snake's tail instead of legs, but there it is.
Mythologically Naga can be quite a lot of things, including multi-headed snake, half-snake-half-human, just a snake and so on. The Naga depiction in the fantasy games is - as usual - only loosely based on the actual mythological prototype.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted February 06, 2011 12:20 AM

Quote:
EDIT:  Kodial, you make an excellent point.  However, the H6 Necropolis calls Liches and Vampires the same "race".  Taking it a step farther, the H6 Ghost is a vampire that failed in its transformation.  So, yeah, three creatures with the same racial template.  Better executed than other examples, though, in such a way as to make it both interesting and subtle.

Which for me is a perfect example of taking a concept too far where there is no need to do it. Necropolis is (almost by default) a collection of creatures that are all undead, hence there is no need to make a further racial distinction (same with Inferno). Making Liches Vampires makes absolutely no sense in terms of mythlogical/fantasy lore, and for me makes a completely pointless issue that will be disliked by many fans.
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Jabanoss
Jabanoss


Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
posted February 06, 2011 12:24 AM

Actually I like the fact that Vampires are another form of liches. That adds a cool depth meaning that their are certain levels of awesomeness Superiority within the Necropolis.
Before I was pretty meh to the idea of Vampires, but after i read how the vampires function in Heroes 6, I was thrilled to say the least.
Seriously I love the lore for the H6 vampires.
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Aosaw
Aosaw


Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
posted February 06, 2011 12:27 AM

Well, it makes sense in the sense that vampires and liches have no place existing as separate entities within the same faction.  They're two completely different types of undead, but more importantly than that, they're two types of undead that are independently very powerful - so unless they were part of the same type of undead, you'd never be able to get the one to work for the other, or vice versa.

It's about addressing the niche.  Liches are powerful evil masterminds.  Vampires are, too.  If you've got both of them, and they're different, you create a world that's divided unto itself.

It's the same reason why halflings and gnomes really shouldn't be in the same campaign setting in D&D; they both fill the same niche, but are completely unrelated.

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 06, 2011 04:30 AM

could you use word of the chief on stronghold catapult?

though, that would make more sense if regular cyclops had the ability of the H3 cyclop

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Jabanoss
Jabanoss


Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
posted February 06, 2011 04:40 AM

Of course I know that, it was supposed to be a joke...
But I didn't want to use "", because then he might have thought I wasn't serious about the other part, which I was.

In any case, In my opinion the Cyclope Catapult is the best of the 4 revealed. Can't wait to see what kind of siege "thing" the Sanctuary have.

And also do you people think that all factions will have their own unique healing tent, ballista and ammo cart?
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Wckey
Wckey


Famous Hero
posted February 06, 2011 05:24 AM

Since ammo cart, tent and the other I forgot the name are buyable instead of being part of the hero, I believe they will not be unique for each faction.
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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted February 06, 2011 08:34 AM
Edited by kodial79 at 08:54, 06 Feb 2011.

The right question is: Do you think war machines other than catapult, are going to be in at all?

The way they're cutting on game content if they get it in their mind that these catapults could damage units as well, then they will not think twice of leaving out ballistas, for example.

@alcibiades

Actually, vampires have more in common with liches than you imagine.

Liches are born of modern fiction. Stories of Clark Ashton Smith and other such writers. Liches have not ever been actual mythological creatures of any culture. Their description is pretty the same as we all know it. But I think there's more to it, that connects them to Vampires.

As you know the origins of vampire are lost in time, and the word "vampire" is one that no one knows where it first came from.

(Personally, I trace the Vampire legend back to the mythological Lamia and as Lamia was often considered a witch, I think the the word "vampire" has Turkish roots from their word for witch "Uber". I've got many reasons to suspect why was it that Lamia single-handedly kickstarted the legend of the vampires but it would take a lot of paragraphs to analyze that here. )

Anyway, the earliest surviving written form of the word vampire comes from an old Russian manuscript, signed by some Priest who called himself Upir Likhyi. Upir is Russian for Vampire, Likhyi means evil or something like that. No one supported that but I believe that from the word "Likhyi" (especially because it was written in the manuscript next to Upir, then), is the origin of the famous undead monster, the Lich!

Writers such as C.A. Smith used to be making a hell of a lot of research on their myths and legends before turning into their own stories. I have no doubt, that whoever coined the term "Lich" first, got the inspiration from that manuscript.

So if you think about it, in their very humble beginnings, liches and vampires were the same.


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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted February 06, 2011 09:19 AM

Obviously, you know a lot about those things that I don't. I kind of represent another branch in "mythology" - I'm a D'n'D player from back in the days (and although one can just claim that D'n'D is just one game among many, I don't think one should underestimate the impact D'n'D has had on many, if not most, if modern day fantasy thinkers).

Anyway, in D'n'D a Lich is simply a mage who cheats death by trapping his soul in a crystal (or something like that, I don't remember the details) whereas a Vampire is made from another Vampire as we know from common lore (Dracula etc.). Thus, the two are entirely different in origin. [Notice that in D'n'D sense, a Lich would be not so much a creature as a Hero class, i.e. the magic Necropolis hero.]
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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted February 06, 2011 09:30 AM

Quote:
Obviously, you know a lot about those things that I don't. I kind of represent another branch in "mythology" - I'm a D'n'D player from back in the days (and although one can just claim that D'n'D is just one game among many, I don't think one should underestimate the impact D'n'D has had on many, if not most, if modern day fantasy thinkers).

Anyway, in D'n'D a Lich is simply a mage who cheats death by trapping his soul in a crystal (or something like that, I don't remember the details) whereas a Vampire is made from another Vampire as we know from common lore (Dracula etc.). Thus, the two are entirely different in origin. [Notice that in D'n'D sense, a Lich would be not so much a creature as a Hero class, i.e. the magic Necropolis hero.]


Yes, this is how Liches were in the first stories. Mages that returned after their death. Ever since then, they had nothing to do with vampires, other than they were both being undead. Neither in the stories of fantasy writers nor in D&D.

It is just my opinion that it was that Russian manuscript signed by a Priest (notice how the Priest is connected in Fantasy fiction with a form of magic) who called himself a Vampire, that first gave us the word "Lich" even in that primal form.

So let me rephrase it. It's not that they had the same beginnings, it's that the Lich sprang from the legend of the Vampire. Anyway, to me, there is a clear connection. So I kinda liked it when in H6 they went and make the Vampire be an evolved Lich. Cause it reminded me of all that.




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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted February 06, 2011 09:34 AM

Quote:
@Zenofex

That just remains to be seen. I'm sure Demons are able to take more damage than Orcs. They're clear on this. I've been thinking too, that if you put them all together, Inferno will be the most overpowered faction. Destructive magic, luck, stamina and gating. This translates as: A lot of magic damage, a lot of physical damage, a lot of hit points and a lot of numbers. Their weak morale and few supports don't seem to be enough create a balance. Must be that the Gating is not as direct as it was in H5, that's what I think. From what I hear some kind of gauge has been introduced that dictates on how racial abilities will be used and to what extent. If Gating is going to be checked by it, then so will Blood Rage. So there should be no worry about that.


I think that all factions will be balanced so that there is no unfairness or unbiasness for any player....that's the beauty about Heroes....like chess...all pieces are equal, it's how you play them that counts!!

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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted February 06, 2011 09:40 AM

Balance has always been an issue in Heroes, I think. But I like to think now, they're making a serious effort to provide us with equally powerful factions. Well, we'll just wait and see..
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted February 06, 2011 09:49 AM

Quote:
Actually, vampires have more in common with liches than you imagine.

Liches are born of modern fiction. Stories of Clark Ashton Smith and other such writers. Liches have not ever been actual mythological creatures of any culture. Their description is pretty the same as we all know it. But I think there's more to it, that connects them to Vampires.

As you know the origins of vampire are lost in time, and the word "vampire" is one that no one knows where it first came from.

(Personally, I trace the Vampire legend back to the mythological Lamia and as Lamia was often considered a witch, I think the the word "vampire" has Turkish roots from their word for witch "Uber". I've got many reasons to suspect why was it that Lamia single-handedly kickstarted the legend of the vampires but it would take a lot of paragraphs to analyze that here. )

Anyway, the earliest surviving written form of the word vampire comes from an old Russian manuscript, signed by some Priest who called himself Upir Likhyi. Upir is Russian for Vampire, Likhyi means evil or something like that. No one supported that but I believe that from the word "Likhyi" (especially because it was written in the manuscript next to Upir, then), is the origin of the famous undead monster, the Lich!

Writers such as C.A. Smith used to be making a hell of a lot of research on their myths and legends before turning into their own stories. I have no doubt, that whoever coined the term "Lich" first, got the inspiration from that manuscript.

So if you think about it, in their very humble beginnings, liches and vampires were the same.
All of these are half-truths or are not true at all. Even in Wikipedia, which you are reading so often , it is clearly stated that the Lich concept is pretty old and has somewhat Eastern roots, although it's spread mostly in the West. See the story of the Russian Koshchei for example - it's pretty similar to that of the Heroes Liches (you can find it in the same Wikipedia among other places ). Saying that the Liches are artificial is not accurate.
As for the Vampires - this is REALLY HUGE topic. There are so many types of vampires on so many places all over the world that classifying them all will fill a pretty heavy volume. There are traces of vampirism back in Ancient Mesopotamia (usually where many of the myths have their roots) associated with certain demons. Lamia is a later development of the various myths of Lamashtu, the lilitu demons and later Lilith - of course somewhat changed. Closer to vampire in the Greek mythology is Empusa - who is yet another branch of the same "family" with Eastern roots. The Egyptian goddess Sekhmet is sort of an occasional blood-drinker as well. But anyway, the blood-drinking supernaturals are pretty much everywhere and could have something to do with the modern day depiction of vampire or could be completely different. The Slavic vampires for example could take various forms and are not necessary to look very human. The process of the vampire creation is even a bigger mess - from erroneous treatment of the corpse after death, expulsion from the church, through curses, to some form of possession and seemingly random events like when someone is born (yup, born a vampire). They can differ from the Liches vastly and most often they do. Their strengths and weaknesses vary per regions just like their appearance. Saying that a vampire looks exactly "like that" or have exactly "these traits" couldn't be further from the truth. They are just too many of them.

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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted February 06, 2011 10:18 AM
Edited by kodial79 at 10:40, 06 Feb 2011.

Quote:
All of these are half-truths or are not true at all. Even in Wikipedia, which you are reading so often , it is clearly stated that the Lich concept is pretty old and has somewhat Eastern roots, although it's spread mostly in the West. See the story of the Russian Koshchei for example - it's pretty similar to that of the Heroes Liches (you can find it in the same Wikipedia among other places ). Saying that the Liches are artificial is not accurate.
As for the Vampires - this is REALLY HUGE topic. There are so many types of vampires on so many places all over the world that classifying them all will fill a pretty heavy volume. There are traces of vampirism back in Ancient Mesopotamia (usually where many of the myths have their roots) associated with certain demons. Lamia is a later development of the various myths of Lamashtu, the lilitu demons and later Lilith - of course somewhat changed. Closer to vampire in the Greek mythology is Empusa - who is yet another branch of the same "family" with Eastern roots. The Egyptian goddess Sekhmet is sort of an occasional blood-drinker as well. But anyway, the blood-drinking supernaturals are pretty much everywhere and could have something to do with the modern day depiction of vampire or could be completely different. The Slavic vampires for example could take various forms and are not necessary to look very human. The process of the vampire creation is even a bigger mess - from erroneous treatment of the corpse after death, expulsion from the church, through curses, to some form of possession and seemingly random events like when someone is born (yup, born a vampire). They can differ from the Liches vastly and most often they do. Their strengths and weaknesses vary per regions just like their appearance. Saying that a vampire looks exactly "like that" or have exactly "these traits" couldn't be further from the truth. They are just too many of them.


I was talking about the word "Lich" probably coming from that "Likhyi". You won't read that anywhere, wikipedia or not, that's just me saying it.

There are no mythological liches and that's a fact, not in East or elsewhere. Undead wizards were all around though, and the Lich's attributes in the first stories must have been borrowed from them. But that doesn't matter, cause I was just underlining their connection to vampires (according to me), not citing everything I know about liches.

There have been demons and undead that are similar to vampires all over the world, for sure. But the legend of the vampires could only have their roots on just a few of them. Common folk back then, could not have known of all of them. Probably everyone must have done its bit but some contributed more to the legend than others.

Personally, I think that the Lamia's legend was the biggest contributor of the Vampire's legend. Empusa had her part too, in all of this. Empusa helped shape a later image of Lamia. The Lamia carried on, remaining (in)famous and terrorizing the superstitious folk, even after the decline of Ancient Greece, even through the times of the Ottoman posssession of Greece. Other Greek mythological creatures did not survive the "end" of Ancient Greece, Empusa included. But Empusa's legend (along with Mormo's) was absorbed by Lamia and carried on, as one and the same monster. To make a long story short, in Ancient Greece there were Lamia, Empusa and Mormo. In later Greece there were only Lamia who had also the "qualities" of Empusa and Mormo. Wikipedia will not have you know all of that, they just cover the basics.

From there on, the Lamia's legend begins to fade just as the Vampire's legend begins to take a more specific shape. This transformation is a really huge matter as I see it, and well, I have no time now to explain it all...





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MSG-1-1
MSG-1-1


Known Hero
posted February 06, 2011 10:21 AM

Im quite exited and a bit concerned at the same time as I look at the ability descriptions. It's great that they've added so many cool new features that creatures can do, but it also makes it that much harder to make it balanced. Expect a lot of updates when the game hits the stores, I can just imagine the imba combos that players create during the first months
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted February 06, 2011 10:56 AM

Quote:
There have been demons and undead that are similar to vampires all over the world, for sure. But the legend of the vampires could only have their roots on just a few of them. Common folk back then, could not have known of all of them. Probably everyone must have done its bit but some contributed more to the legend than others.
As I said, it entirely depends on which vampires are you talking about. A myth or legend is not necessarily born on one specific place, it could be a result of a lifestyle. What is commonly called vampire today was called 10, 100 or 1000 other names back then and all of them were no less "vampiric" than whatever modern day survivor you pick. Back then there was a great migration of peoples and the cultures mixed a lot. Even though there are unique cultures, none of them is so unique to claim that its development is a result only of its evolution and has nothing to do with other cultures. You can find similarities - and not just one or two - between Greek and Indian myths if you search deep enough. Actually, on the topic of the Greek myths - they are too a relatively late development. Lamia is preceded by the Mesopotamian demons mentioned in my previous post and is sort of their "nephew", so no, she's not the beginning. It is really hard to trace the roots, really, even these demons might be preceded by something else.
As for the Lich - again - what Lich are you talking about? The skeleton-mage with smiling skull and a staff or about the prototype Lich, which, unsurprisingly, didn't find it necessary to look exactly like, say, a D&D Lich?

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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted February 06, 2011 11:06 AM

Quote:
Quote:
There have been demons and undead that are similar to vampires all over the world, for sure. But the legend of the vampires could only have their roots on just a few of them. Common folk back then, could not have known of all of them. Probably everyone must have done its bit but some contributed more to the legend than others.
As I said, it entirely depends on which vampires are you talking about. A myth or legend is not necessarily born on one specific place, it could be a result of a lifestyle. What is commonly called vampire today was called 10, 100 or 1000 other names back then and all of them were no less "vampiric" than whatever modern day survivor you pick. Back then there was a great migration of peoples and the cultures mixed a lot. Even though there are unique cultures, none of them is so unique to claim that its development is a result only of its evolution and has nothing to do with other cultures. You can find similarities - and not just one or two - between Greek and Indian myths if you search deep enough. Actually, on the topic of the Greek myths - they are too a relatively late development. Lamia is preceded by the Mesopotamian demons mentioned in my previous post and is sort of their "nephew", so no, she's not the beginning. It is really hard to trace the roots, really, even these demons might be preceded by something else.
As for the Lich - again - what Lich are you talking about? The skeleton-mage with smiling skull and a staff or about the prototype Lich, which, unsurprisingly, didn't find it necessary to look exactly like, say, a D&D Lich?


Oh, I'm not talking about any specific characteristics of the Lich, all I'm saying is, that probably the word "lich" used to describe the undead monster, originated from that Russian manuscript. That's purely my own theory.

Look, ofcourse Lamia's legend has been inspired by something else. I'm not saying that Lamia was the first. I'm saying that Lamia as she was described in later Greek traditions, played perhaps the most important role on shaping up the Vampire's image.



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Kenishi
Kenishi


Famous Hero
passed out drunk in Tavern's
posted February 06, 2011 12:02 PM
Edited by Kenishi at 12:04, 06 Feb 2011.

 Looks like we broke down the 300 limit .

   As I read through the post I've noticed the debate regarding the vampire lich similarities  in the H6 lore, I must say I don't see why they should  complicate the lich lore, (as  meat in most fantasy) they are mages who go through a ritual to gain a immortal body in order to continue there research and mastery of arcane arts while vampires are creature (cursed) that need to feed on blood to survive, and I'm saying that because I'm of the concept if it's not broken don't fix it.

   Regarding the vampires myth and origin all I can say is that fear of undead and there presumed resurrection from the grave exists in almost every human culture so I think that the notion of vampire (the modern on) comes from 18-19 century victory-an literature and especially Bram Stoker's  Dracula which was a huge success because it was  based on a person from 15-16 century a figure of a murderous warlord called Vlad Tepes  (depicted as that but I cant be neutral or better put objective on the mater since is part of my country's history).

   So the fact that now we find similarity between ancient myths is either a coincidence or a prof that myths had a wide spread on the world (and especially scary stories as they ware used to moralizes and keep in cheek some of man's more deviant behavior).

   And on a final note although the vampire myth changes and develops doesn't necessarily mean that is for the better, take Stephenie Meyer interpretation of vampires which is just to off of the original myths and roots (at list for me, I mean they sparkle in the light, freaking walking disco globe, no I didn't read the book, nor will I ever, I just made the mistake of watching the first movie) but I guess is up to everyones taste, and if the lore gets bended a bit for H6 well for me is just wasted effort.

P.S. The best vampire in the Heroes franchise was the one from H3 I loved the Nosferatu look and also made more sens whit the whole cohesion of the faction and is the only reason that H3 Unded wins on H2 on or any other sequel for me.
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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted February 06, 2011 12:17 PM

And Bram Stoker's Dracula was inspired by the earlier John Polidori's "the Vampyre".

And John Polidori was inspired by his life and travels with Lord Byron.

And Lord Byron was inspired by the Greek traditions of Vrykolakas, when he travelled in Greece and later wrote the Giaour.

And the Greeks based their Vrykolakas on the Varcolac, the Romanian Werewolf.

And the Werewolf legend partly originates back in Ancient Greece and the monsters known as Mormolyx.

The Mormolyx monsters were the offspring of the demon Mormo, which later became one with Lamia.


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Tomash
Tomash


Hired Hero
posted February 06, 2011 12:54 PM
Edited by Tomash at 12:56, 06 Feb 2011.

Some leaked WIP images of naga and bunch of waterfolks. Also people are excited by some references to nagas in abillities descriptions on official page.

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