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Danny
Famous Hero
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posted November 03, 2010 05:30 PM |
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I know it's similar to the Pikeman but it still counts as a new unit. There's only so much variations you can give to a medieval-based human faction. Also, both Ghoul and Juggernaut are considered new creatures even though they could also be called as revamps of old units (Zombie & Horned Demon).
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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted November 03, 2010 05:33 PM |
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Except that the Juggernaut and Ghoul are likely to fill different roles then the predecessors you mentioned.
Considering it's name, the Jugger is likely to be large whilst the Ghoul is likely to be swift.
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Danny
Famous Hero
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posted November 03, 2010 05:37 PM |
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Quote:
Except that the Juggernaut and Ghoul are likely to fill different roles then the predecessors you mentioned.
Considering it's name, the Jugger is likely to be large whilst the Ghoul is likely to be swift.
Was only talking about appearance here.  It has a pike but there's only so much weapons medieval infantry can use. If it had a sword, you'd say it was the Footman. 
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odium
Known Hero
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posted November 03, 2010 06:02 PM |
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I like the idea of the new unit (or most of it), the Tormentor, however I pretty much dislike the concept art. I mean common, its skeleton seems made out of steel and not bones (especially the limbs). Also they went a bit too far with the tearing of the flesh... The thing should still have a life of its own (it's not undead). Tearing too much flesh from oneself (as the concept art looks) definitely leads to death no matter how much credit you give to fantasy (in my opinion they crossed the line between a fantastic setup which feels realistic and something having no/little grain of realism). This idea of tearing oneself up could better suit an undead creature which in any case is animated so it doesn't need to have a functioning body.
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Typhus-Null
Tavern Dweller
Typhus Reborn
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posted November 03, 2010 06:19 PM |
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As long as they don't slash up their entire bodies at once it could be possible. People could have cut just about their entire bodies without dying, as long as they do it in small increments.
Besides, Demons are extremely hardy, and we don't really have a biology book on any of them about how much pain they feel/how much damage they can take before dying.
However they could also be somewhat of a "Berzerker" unit(Do damage to themselves which results in death/heavy damage but do increased damage until they expire). This option would hardly be new to games.
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For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible. -Stuart Chase
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted November 03, 2010 07:21 PM |
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The Tormentor looks cool imo, a bit warhammery.
They could come up with something a bit more creative than simply adding fire or glow to every upgrade though...
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted November 04, 2010 12:17 AM |
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As I understand it, each faction has a base theme and an advanced theme. For Haven, the base theme is "medieval feudalism", and the advanced theme is "angelic gothic". Every creature in the line-up matches both themes, depending on whether or not the creature is upgraded.
For Inferno units, the themes are "smoldering rock" and "Burning Lava". Seems contrived, yes, but unfortunately that's the best they can do in that regard, short of adding more horns, which would be just as insipid.
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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted November 04, 2010 08:39 AM |
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Edited by MrDragon at 13:41, 04 Nov 2010.
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I'm starting to like HoMMVI more and more.
Now it turns out there are 2 base and 4 or 6 advanced classes per faction.
Whilst it doesn't work the same, I was for the second time since yesterday reminded of Secret of Mana and it's class system in Seiken Densetsu 3.
Might and Magic classes are now homogenized in how they gain strength and options in battle, which I think is a good thing, even in HV which was the strongest title so far in letting Might heroes do at least something more then just whack away or try to cast, pulling them onto an even playing field as magic heroes is a good idea I'd say.
Whilst I don't mind the Magic Guild disappearing, it does have me worried of the total buildings count in towns.
For advancement, the way I read it, it looks like a "Skill Tree" based system, which is what I was expecting.
I'm hoping we get a alpha build screenshot though, so we can have some idea of how it works, in the current build anyway.
DRAGONS ARE BOSSES! Thank you Black Hole!
Whilst I'm sad to not have at least 1 of them leading an army, they are going to be placed in a position of respect and power, which in my opinion, is where Dragons should be.
Don't know if I'm pleased about nerfing magic to a more "support" role, I think, at least in major battles, magic was never capable of carrying a hero by itself, so making it even less powerful in proportion has me worried as well.
I doubt they'll go to far with that but it is a nagging little worry.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 04, 2010 09:34 AM |
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Quote:
6) Dragons will disappear in Heroes VI as units of 7th level, but will appear in it as the "bosses"
Well, I really want to see what is their explanation about the dragons being equall to the rest of the top tiers in Heroes V, but now surpassing them greatly in raw strenght. I actually expected this - getting rid of the faction-based dragons, but still keeping them as annoyingly beloved neutrals. What does the bosses mean - that there will be no other boss-creatures except dragons? Sounds exceptionally daft if it is so.
About the "damage magic" - I hope this is a joke or mistranslation. If they seriously think that "a single Magic hero can destroy the army of a Might hero with spells", then they haven't played even one game of the series and they should not be allowed to participate even in an on-line tournament, let alone design a new part! The Might hero is not supposed to counter the Magic hero spell casting efficiency with similar skills, but with his ability to improve the stats of his own army - better Attack and Defense ratings, better chance to get skills like Offence, Leadership, etc. (speaking in the terms of the previous games). Actually it has always been like this - the Magic hero's army tries to survive on the battlefield long enough to allow their leader to cast his most powerful spells. In 1:1 combat without spells, the Might-led army always crushes very decisively the Magic-led army. In fact, I think the claims that Might normally dominates over Magic in the HoMM games are well-founded. And now they want to relax the already weakened in Heroes V destructive spells?!!
I won't comment the rest for now, let's wait for official info.
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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted November 04, 2010 09:49 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
6) Dragons will disappear in Heroes VI as units of 7th level, but will appear in it as the "bosses"
Well, I really want to see what is their explanation about the dragons being equall to the rest of the top tiers in Heroes V, but now surpassing them greatly in raw strenght. I actually expected this - getting rid of the faction-based dragons, but still keeping them as annoyingly beloved neutrals. What does the bosses mean - that there will be no other boss-creatures except dragons? Sounds exceptionally daft if it is so.
Keep in mind it's a direct translation from Russian, their grammar is different, I'd take the "The" with a pinch of salt.
As for dragons "changing in power", everything is more or less changing in power, we got a new tier system to ram some sense and unit on unit balance in the new game, reorganizing the power structure is a side-effect of this, and in my opinion, not a negative one, making the monsters power ratio more sensible.
Quote:
About the "damage magic" - I hope this is a joke or mistranslation. If they seriously think that "a single Magic hero can destroy the army of a Might hero with spells", then they haven't played even one game of the series and they should not be allowed to participate even in an on-line tournament, let alone design a new part! The Might hero is not supposed to counter the Magic hero spell casting efficiency with similar skills, but with his ability to improve the stats of his own army - better Attack and Defense ratings, better chance to get skills like Offence, Leadership, etc. (speaking in the terms of the previous games). Actually it has always been like this - the Magic hero's army tries to survive on the battlefield long enough to allow their leader to cast his most powerful spells. In 1:1 combat without spells, the Might-led army always crushes very decisively the Magic-led army. In fact, I think the claims that Might normally dominates over Magic in the HoMM games are well-founded. And now they want to relax the already weakened in Heroes V destructive spells?!!
Bit worried here as well, I mean, sure a well placed destructive spell could cripple a key stack, or even wipe it out in one go with high level heroes, but overall, Magic heroes still had to rely on their creatures for most of the damage.
But I doubt they'll do anything really crazy, I mean I'm worried but it's hard to tell what they exactly have in mind for it.
Quote:
I won't comment the rest for now, let's wait for official info.
Pity I was hoping for more thoughts surrounding this.
But I suppose it's the more sensible thing to do.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 04, 2010 10:51 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 10:52, 04 Nov 2010.
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Quote:
Keep in mind it's a direct translation from Russian, their grammar is different, I'd take the "The" with a pinch of salt.
As for dragons "changing in power", everything is more or less changing in power, we got a new tier system to ram some sense and unit on unit balance in the new game, reorganizing the power structure is a side-effect of this, and in my opinion, not a negative one, making the monsters power ratio more sensible.
Well, of course I don't take it as a rock-solid translation, I'm just saying that if the dragons are indeed the only bosses, Ubihole are definitely not earning any positive attitude from me for such a decision.
As for the monster power - what I am saying is that the dragons are vexatiously being put on a piadestal. I would hate a Heroes game without dragons, but I equally hate them for being idolized to such an extent. I can't see why Angels, Devils, Titans, etc. don't deserve to be equally powerful as some flying lizards with built-in flame-throwers. It's not like it doesn't make sense to be so.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 04, 2010 11:01 AM |
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Keep in mind that in the Ashan-lore Dragons are Gods and the mortal Dragons are demi-gods by extent. Christian-European assumptions do not apply to this. In this universe Dragons are more devine than any angel or devil.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted November 04, 2010 11:18 AM |
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Quote:
As for the monster power - what I am saying is that the dragons are vexatiously being put on a pedestal. I would hate a Heroes game without dragons, but I equally hate them for being idolized to such an extent. I can't see why Angels, Devils, Titans, etc. don't deserve to be equally powerful as some flying lizards with built-in flame-throwers. It's not like it doesn't make sense to be so.
Well first: Dragons in Asha are divine, they are the spawn of the gods of the world.
Angels are servants of the Dragon of light, so Angels are likely directly inferior to a say.. the hypothetical Gold Dragon who is a child of the Dragon of light.
Devils fall outside this particular power structure because they function directly beneath Demon Lords who are servants of Urgash (who is also a Dragon).
Probably putting the highest of them on roughly the same level as the elemental dragons, devils then at the same level as angels.
Titans are an artificial creature created by mortals.
I'd also say classifying Dragons as Lizards, heck even reptiles is, physiologically silly, but that's just nitpicking, I mean Dragons have two additional limbs for starters, presumably hollow bones and/or gas filled organs to reduce or counter act their weight, etc etc etc.
In the same way I could describe Ashan Angels as "winged girlies with oversized swords." or Ashan Devils as "Burning gorrila men with dumb look on their face."
So that has little merit, you can describe anything in a way it sounds preposterous.
So when it comes to this particular point, they are being even more faithful to the established lore of HoMMV then the game was itself, if that makes any sense.
I think putting Dragons on a pedestal will change the way people interact with them as a story element.
I certainly hope they will make them visually more appealing, larger and more ferocious looking.
But I also hope that we'll get to face a giant demonic abomination of some sort, a twisted mass of crimson flesh, smoldering rock, burning flames, dark metal and weapons capable of tearing a horse in two like it's made of butter.
Or a Faceless warlord, a vague humanoid figure clad in dark wings, wielding a sword as dark as the mid-night sky, slinging earth shattering magic across the battlefield.
So yes, I hope very, very, very much, not every boss will be a Dragon.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 04, 2010 11:18 AM |
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Quote:
Keep in mind that in the Ashan-lore Dragons are Gods and the mortal Dragons are demi-gods by extent. Christian-European assumptions do not apply to this. In this universe Dragons are more devine than any angel or devil.
I would agree to this when they define the term "dragon", more specifically when it is related to Asha, Urgash and the rest. If "dragon" means lizard-like, usually-flying, normally-fire-breathing creature like the mainstream conception of "dragons" - fine, let them be "the most divine" if the world designers find it suitable (the whole thing about world created by such extremely ordinary dragons is beyond ridiculous, but it's canon, so I have no choice but to agree with a ridiculous canon - it won't be changed any time soon anyway). If, however, it's just another word for "god" and the physical manifestation and/or the most powerful servitors of a "dragon" can vary, then why can't a Devil (for example) be called "a demon in whose veins flows the blood of Urgash" - in essence semi-dragon - and be as powerful as, for instance, some boss-dragon.
By the way the Christian-European perception regarding angels, demons, dragons and so on is only one of the many which can be applied to this case. But this is irrelevant, what I actually mean is explained above.
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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted November 04, 2010 11:34 AM |
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Edited by MrDragon at 11:47, 04 Nov 2010.
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How about they start tackling Dragons in a less generic manner?
This is obviously idle speculation, but judging by the new style, I could imagine them dropping the classic silhouette and going for more varied and vibrant dragons.
Examples:
http://wen-m.deviantart.com/art/Anima-Dark-Dragon-31166859?q=favby%3AUrazel%2F39746732&qo=17
Something along those lines would make a nice Black Dragon.
http://genzoman.deviantart.com/art/Ryujin-41341252?q=favby%3AUrazel%2F39746732&qo=8
Actually quite close to what I'm expecting of a Water based Dragon.
http://mr--jack.deviantart.com/art/Lux-Coma-115974887?q=favby%3AUrazel%2F39746732&qo=15
Might be a nice stab at a "White Dragon" or "Gold Dragon"
Finally one of my own sketches.
http://urazel.deviantart.com/art/Lemoraz-Nature-Dragon-159998791?q=gallery%3AUrazel%2F20502117&qo=71
Green/Emerald I could imagine heading more this way.
Oooh and larger scale, how about this, again one of my own.
http://urazel.deviantart.com/art/Urazel-the-Doom-Linnorm-161890919?q=gallery%3AUrazel%2F20502117&qo=59
Contrary to popular belief: Size DOES matter.
Edit: I'm just trying to convey the Feel here, not as actual suggestions they should look like that.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 04, 2010 12:33 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 12:38, 04 Nov 2010.
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@MrDragon
I should note that life and death are ideologies and not tied to life/death magic but you'll have to wait for the clarifications.
I'll have to admit that I hated the news of no guild but having given it some time to sink in.. It's not really a bad thing. I'll miss the random spells as much as I was annoyed at getting the crappy spells. Now if you also consider that you can prioritize what spells to get, when, avoid returning to town, I could get used to that!
@Zenofex
Only dragon bosses? Please, don't you remember the adventure H6 video? Speaking of dragons I'd REALLY love to see the dragon utopia being a boss(es) battle but that's wishful speculation only.
About weakening destructive they have every reason to make this change. I've played multiplayer in the tournament of the honour or organizing friendly tournaments and have seen a few empowered possibly lucky meteors wiping out 2-3 stacks at a time. A lucky armageddon with cape could kill my opponent's 5 week army in one single cast. Likewise opponent could be lucky to have protection but H5 was way too chaotic anyway.
That's only one side of the coin. In H6 you must also take into account that the pace of the battle has been slowed down to allow more tactical battles.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted November 04, 2010 01:30 PM |
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Edited by MrDragon at 13:40, 04 Nov 2010.
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Thanks for the clue about the Life & Death thing, I wasn't assuming it to be very literal anyway, again because I was having fuzzy memories of Seiken Densetsu 3, which called the class advancement choices Light and Dark but it only vaguely was related to that.
Dark was, and consequently, Death, in my assumption will be more Destructive, offensive, aggressive whilst Light was, and thus Life in my assumption will be more defensive, sustained, conservative.
But that's just a probably incorrect analogy I'm making based on a video game from over a one and a half decade ago.
Regardless it has me psyched, the thought of having multiple classes per faction makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. (two basic, several advanced)
Even if the differences between them aren't massive ones, they are likely to each have a different class skill.
As for the magic guild, yeah, I won't miss the randomized spell selection (which pissed me off 9/10 times).
But I'm worried about the amount of structures per town, I hope it will still take quite a bit of time to max out your town, choosing what buildings to build, when and in what order, was for me an important part of the out of battle management I had to do.
And yeah, I've heard stories about people getting arti and spell combos capable of wreaking that kind of havoc, but at the same time, if you had bad luck with spell power artifacts/level gain and/or bad spell selections, sometimes your magic hero was quite crippled.
I guess removing the random element ought to fix that, and then reducing the power of magic counteracts the much greater control people would have in achieving magical genocide, keeping the balance.
Improving the emphasis on tactics even more is a big + in my book.
Edit: Just corrected a minor mistake.
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Danny
Famous Hero
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posted November 04, 2010 02:48 PM |
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Does it mean the 4th faction won't be revealed at this event at all, or that comment only referred to the first day? It would be really weird if they didn't use the event to announce it and relegate it to just a Facebook update.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 04, 2010 03:52 PM |
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Quote:
Only dragon bosses? Please, don't you remember the adventure H6 video?
The thing on the video looks like a wingless water dragon and I believe it will be exactly something like that.
Quote:
About weakening destructive they have every reason to make this change. I've played multiplayer in the tournament of the honour or organizing friendly tournaments and have seen a few empowered possibly lucky meteors wiping out 2-3 stacks at a time. A lucky armageddon with cape could kill my opponent's 5 week army in one single cast. Likewise opponent could be lucky to have protection but H5 was way too chaotic anyway.
Well, you are talking about one specific faction using its racial advantages (and I don't find them overpowered either). Apart from the Warlock and his Empowered Spells, the desctructive spells in HoMM V were inferior to powerful crowd control spells like Slow, Confusion, etc. and some of the stat-boosting/reducing spells. Frankly, I find only the Summoning school somewhat weaker than the Destructive, the Warlock and his abilities aside. Further nerfing the destructives is far from justified for me.
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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted November 04, 2010 03:58 PM |
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Edited by MrDragon at 16:18, 04 Nov 2010.
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Keep in mind, they'll do it with balance in mind, presuming they aren't complete idiots they'll not be horribly off target the first round and can patch where required.
They already announced that there are plans for a Beta, and presuming they get some reasonable feedback there is plenty of time for it to get buffed or nerfed further.
Finally approaching it directly from the standpoint of HV or HIII is probably a bad idea, it is a brand new game, even if it's a sequel, the core balance will be different.
It's not a new patch, it's a new sequel.
Edit: Also, that boss looked more like a souped up Water Elemental to me, like they look in HV, or a snake, but not a dragon, certainly not with those markings.
I doubt that we'll only get dragon bosses, if we do, I'll be disappointed.
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