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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~ [ This thread is 525 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 (29) 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 ]
LichKing012
LichKing012


Known Hero
posted November 14, 2010 10:56 PM

Well there were also A lot of dragons in heroes 3. \If we take the original 8 factions (no one likes conflux anyway) there were 3 level 7 dragons, angles, devils, behemoths, hydras, and titans. thats almost 50% plus in heroes 3 there were like 800 neutral dragons. Just saying. Personally, I seriously doubt we will see any elf faction so the ones where dragons are "required" as a unit don't need to be in the game until an expansion. I seriously doubt that the black dragon will NOT be in a town at some point, at least in spirit. I will be happy if there are "shadow/red dragons", black dragons, and then there is the super duper kick-snow DARKNESS DRAGON as a boss monster.

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MattII
MattII


Supreme Hero
posted November 15, 2010 03:00 AM

No, 3/8 is 37.5%, get your maths right pal.

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Nelgirith
Nelgirith


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted November 15, 2010 03:16 AM

Quote:
plus in heroes 3 there were like 800 neutral dragons.

The Rust/Crystal/Faerie/Azure dragons were not "neutral", they were specific to one campaign, sometimes even to one single map. Those "neutral" dragons didn't appear on a map unless a mapmaker enforced them. They should be considered as boss.

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted November 15, 2010 03:20 AM

I'm pretty sure their alignment was neutral like sharpshooters and enchanters though it has been a while.
____________
beware a monkey
-ghost

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MrDragon
MrDragon


Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
posted November 15, 2010 03:57 AM

Anything more then a couple of dragons you meet everywhere is to many.
H3 already had to many dragons, the Green/Gold was plenty redundant.
Though to be honest, it's not so much the variety of Dragons that bugs me, as it is their overplayed presence.

As a hardcore Dungeons and Dragons player for over a decade, especially as a DM, I have learned that the less dragons the players interact with, the more intimidating they are and more serious and delicately players will handle the situation.

When my players meet a dragon, they know only a handful of things:
1, avoid combat as much as possible, dragons aren't immortal but that doesn't mean they aren't lethal.
2, gather as much information on it as possible, dealing with dragons without information on them isn't just dangerous, it's stupid.
3, don't assume ANYTHING to be certain about the dragon until it is proven to be true.

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MattII
MattII


Supreme Hero
posted November 15, 2010 04:48 AM

Quote:
I'm pretty sure their alignment was neutral like sharpshooters and enchanters though it has been a while.
Yes, they were neutral, but they were also tough enough and rare enough to count as bosses (they counted as level 8 or something, so you couldn't even get them as random creatures).

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Danny
Danny


Famous Hero
posted November 15, 2010 06:39 AM

Quote:
What? Nothing new today?


It was jinxed because everyone found out their revealing process!

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SwampLord
SwampLord


Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
posted November 15, 2010 12:00 PM
Edited by SwampLord at 12:01, 15 Nov 2010.

Quote:
Quote:
plus in heroes 3 there were like 800 neutral dragons.

The Rust/Crystal/Faerie/Azure dragons were not "neutral", they were specific to one campaign, sometimes even to one single map. Those "neutral" dragons didn't appear on a map unless a mapmaker enforced them. They should be considered as boss.


They were neutral in the sense that they are unaffiliated with a faction, and they do in fact show up on random maps sometimes, I believe.
To be honest, I liked the neutral dragons in Armageddon's Blade because some of them, like the crystal and fairie dragons, were very unique.

And yep, more news would be great!
____________
They can take my swamp, they can take my town, but they will never take my FREEDOM!

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MattII
MattII


Supreme Hero
posted November 15, 2010 12:30 PM

Quote:
They were neutral in the sense that they are unaffiliated with a faction, and they do in fact show up on random maps sometimes, I believe.
Well I never encounter a one of them in dozens of random maps.

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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted November 15, 2010 06:59 PM

I am always amazed as how they always try to make all factions good,except inferno.Heck,even inferno is good cuz the demons just want to get away from their prison,poor dudes.
Sure,Tote had both good factions and evil factions of nearly every race,but WE never got to play evil.
Only Homm 5 had one truly evil campaign,necro campaign.


Honestly,necro,inferno and dungeon should be evil by intention.At least have two campaigns that are about "world domination",exterminating elves,pixies,ponies and so on.

lastly,some sort of uniique racial spells would be good.I mean meteor shower cast by some Rangers looked awful.Hellish demonic flower elf warning.
At least they should change the visuals for some spells. according to the races.
Meteor shower should have some sort of falling white star effect when used by knights,dark mist like effects on necromancers and so on.
____________
"Science is not fun without cyanide"

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Oz
Oz


Adventuring Hero
Preparing
posted November 16, 2010 01:42 AM

Agreed. In H3 it was awesome to play as the demon lord who put togather the armagddon's blade, then fight against the same guyas Gelu.
I always enjoyed how we saw the story from both sides.

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MrDragon
MrDragon


Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
posted November 16, 2010 02:39 AM

Aye, I miss channeling my nature as a megalomaniac and having to "protect" everything.
I always have to argue with myself that it's more fun to take it from the good guys then the bad guys who obviously don't understand some of the nuances of true evil.
Such as subtlety, multi-layered plans, following the evil-overlord guidelines and being non-reliant on a silly AI.

It's always so refreshing to be evil in a game.
And I don't mean "Overlord" the game evil, which is just blindly following the tropes like a sheep and then ending up saving the world anyway.

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mytheroes
mytheroes


Famous Hero
posted November 16, 2010 02:42 AM

Quote:

It's always so refreshing to be evil in a game.
And I don't mean "Overlord" the game evil, which is just blindly following the tropes like a sheep and then ending up saving the world anyway.


How about Evil Genius and Dungeon Keeper?

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MrDragon
MrDragon


Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
posted November 16, 2010 02:58 AM
Edited by MrDragon at 02:59, 16 Nov 2010.

Quote:

How about Evil Genius and Dungeon Keeper?

Can't say I played Evil Genius, though it sounds entertaining, being a Bond Villain.

Dungeon Keeper has a lot of fond memories, though that also was a bit heavy on the trope over-saturation.
But DK always gave me the feeling I was more running a "town" I.E. Dungeon for my evil minions then actually actively doing evil.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I do love Dungeon Keeper.

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mytheroes
mytheroes


Famous Hero
posted November 16, 2010 03:04 AM

Actually, aren't there many games that let you play as the bad guy and conquer the world and stuff? In RTS alone, it is almost certain there will be a bad guy campaign.

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted November 16, 2010 03:13 AM

Oh, Evil Genius is amazing! It's over-the-top, cliché, full-of-itself and humorous. I guarantee you'll not be able to play it without grinning throughout the enitre game. Everything you associate with 60's spy-flick villians, you'll see.
That said, it's a rather difficult management-sim and if you get it I reccommend you downloading the fan-patch. It will make the game much more playable. And it will soak up a lot of hours, it's a realy realy long game and the pacing of the second half is a lot lower.
Nonetheless I can do nothing else but recommend it for everyone.

Back to the discussion. Yeah, it would be refreshing to see a proper jerk bad-guy. An ambitious guy who is in it purely for himself, doesn't care who or what he has to destroy to get it and can do it with flair.
____________
"Competence on the battlefield is a myth. The side which screws up next to last wins, it's as simple as that."-Lord General Zyvan

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MrDragon
MrDragon


Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
posted November 16, 2010 03:19 AM
Edited by MrDragon at 03:21, 16 Nov 2010.

Quote:
Actually, aren't there many games that let you play as the bad guy and conquer the world and stuff? In RTS alone, it is almost certain there will be a bad guy campaign.

There are a few games that try this but fail to pull it off.
The C&C series has you working as a lackey for the big-bad, you're not the big-bad yourself, this SEVERELY diminishes the impact.
You're being ordered around.

The Warcraft series is also different.
In 1 it really is implied "you" are the commander and eventual leader of one of the two factions. (Cool thing is: lore-wise the Orcs actually won the first war.)
In 2 it is still implied that it's "you" but you are eclipsed a little bit by the lore actions of various other characters.
In 3 you are anonimous but the "evil missions" (Both undead campaigns) are part of the ongoing story.
Not bad, but different.
Starcraft and Starcraft BW tackle it the same as Warcraft III, BUT like in Warcraft 1 and 2 you are considered an entity and spoken to by the lore characters.
Starcraft II doesn't have an "evil campaign" yet, and I'm beginning to wonder if we will.


Moving on:
Dawn of War captures this a tiny bit, but it's just a war campaign and you happen to be evil when playing as certain factions, but you aren't being truly villainous.

I'm not saying first person story telling is a key element, but it helps.

The Heroes series has a fantasy setting (Both Ashan and Erathia) that is suited to pulling out old-school villainy, even from third person.
Edit: HoMMII and HoMMIII were quite good at this.

Fortunately, ANY game with a half decent map editor still can scratch this itch, and often does, for me anyway.
The campaign likely won't give it to us this time around (again), but the promise of a strong map editing tool will suffice.

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mytheroes
mytheroes


Famous Hero
posted November 16, 2010 03:33 AM
Edited by mytheroes at 03:35, 16 Nov 2010.

Quote:

There are a few games that try this but fail to pull it off.



Many actually. In fact, nowadays almost every game out there offers you the ability to play the "bad guy". Whether they succeed or not is a different story.

Edit: And C&C doesn't have an obvious bad guy anyway.

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted November 16, 2010 04:28 AM

I'd also like to point out that in Dawn of War there aren't any actual good-guys either. All factions have their good and bad sides and with the Imperial Guard and the Tau their good sides are often most recognisable. Though that is entirely debatable and that is not something I whish to do here.

I had the feeling that this is what they aimed for in Heroes V, but IMHO that did not realy shine through in first glance in the campaign and only becomes recognisable when you dive into the lore.
Still I agrue that, while factions as a whole may or may not be good or evil, people could be and they would spice the campaign up significantly.
____________
"Competence on the battlefield is a myth. The side which screws up next to last wins, it's as simple as that."-Lord General Zyvan

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted November 16, 2010 05:06 AM
Edited by Zenofex at 05:06, 16 Nov 2010.

The most repetitive and trite part is that the bad guys never actually win. The may gain the upper hand at one point but are ultimately defeated (in quite boring and overused way, normally). And yes, they are usually stupid and short-sighted. Like the greatest villains in human history, which should be the inspirations, were and are anything like this.

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