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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 6 - Discussion thread ~ [ This thread is 525 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 (400) 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 ]
MrDragon
MrDragon


Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
posted June 07, 2011 08:42 PM

What if there's a Frenzy, and there is a Berserk spell?
It is possible they'd do that.

One is the extra hit, the other is the loss of control and power increase.

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 07, 2011 10:01 PM

Quote:
Of course it could be worse - for example some creature casting Frenzy on the attacked enemy as part of its melee hit... Oh, actually...


you mean, like the pit lord?

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Brukernavn
Brukernavn


Famous Hero
posted June 07, 2011 11:47 PM

Quote:
Quote:
True, perhaps, but still it added a level of planning that you had to take into account that potentially, enemy Hero could counter your Frenzy (teleport unit among your own units for instance). Now it seems like you can just mindlessly use it.

It is not a control spell anymore. It is damage spell. The damage scales according to the stack though, which makes it unique. It is completely different spell, and in many cases very useful for your own creatures to make them berserk. Fitting as a fire spell.

I agree. And I also think the tactical potential is increased, since you can cast it on your own creatures.

Countering spells is also completely different, since the hero can act whenever they want (when it's one of their creatures' turn). So if it worked as the frenzy in H5 you would have three options:
1) Cast it before the enemy hero has acted - he counters immediately
2) Cast it after the enemy hero as acted - he can't counter it
3) Cast it when it's the target's turn next - he can't counter it

It would also mean a very little chance of ever using it on one of the fast creatures, since they always act first. All of this would just limit the possibilities.

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 08, 2011 01:34 AM

Quote:
I agree. And I also think the tactical potential is increased, since you can cast it on your own creatures.


you could in H5 too.

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Brukernavn
Brukernavn


Famous Hero
posted June 08, 2011 01:44 AM

I know, but I don't know of anyone who actually used it in that way, since it was (almost) always better to use it on the enemy because of the lost turn in addition to the added damage. Now that's not necessarily the case.

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alcibiades
alcibiades

Hero of Order
and Light
posted June 08, 2011 04:31 AM

Quote:
Countering spells is also completely different, since the hero can act whenever they want (when it's one of their creatures' turn).
True at that, good point. Guess that only goes to emforce my dislike of the new (or should I say old) turn system, but of course they gotta stick with what they chose.
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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted June 08, 2011 05:12 AM

You prefered the first caster to be screwed over by the second just because the atb decided so? What's to like about that? While now it can be tricky on who decides to act first, you have more chances to take advantage of your army's timing than be a slave to it. Controlling the initiative means you control the spellcasting flow.
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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted June 08, 2011 05:23 AM

Is initiative still the same as speed?

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Brukernavn
Brukernavn


Famous Hero
posted June 08, 2011 06:45 AM

As I've understood they are not the same. Initiative determines who acts first and speed determines how far your creature can move.
But I seem to remember that haste effects both speed and initiative, although I hope that's not the case.

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted June 08, 2011 06:51 AM

Sweet, thanks for the answer
That particular aspect of the gameplay always bothered me.

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Karanshade
Karanshade


Adventuring Hero
posted June 08, 2011 07:31 AM

Quote:
You prefered the first caster to be screwed over by the second just because the atb decided so? What's to like about that? While now it can be tricky on who decides to act first, you have more chances to take advantage of your army's timing than be a slave to it. Controlling the initiative means you control the spellcasting flow.


sure , since now every army will have a max speed creature in its rank , the first to cast will be decided by a flip of a coin, which is certainly a major change in term of control with the ATB bar !
Well there is a change for the following cast tough , now they are decided by completely irrelevant paramaters non related to your hero.
Good System Old is always good ofc !
____________

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted June 08, 2011 07:48 AM

Quote:
sure , since now every army will have a max speed creature in its rank , the first to cast will be decided by a flip of a coin, which is certainly a major change in term of control with the ATB bar !
Well there is a change for the following cast tough , now they are decided by completely irrelevant paramaters non related to your hero.
Good System Old is always good ofc !

If you could describe anything as the flip of a coin it was H5 where initiative artifacts were retardedly powerful and 8 init marksmen could play before 10 init master hunters. Now initiative is very specific and you know exactly in what order your units will move.
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MrDragon
MrDragon


Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
posted June 08, 2011 08:49 AM

I just realized the new frenzy spell works almost exactly like the special attack of the Champion unit in my Citadel faction. (theirs has a few less restrictions though)

Always like it when I end up designing something that gets put into a game anyway.
Though admittedly I have mixed feelings about how this plays out if it really replaces the spell as we know it from previous games and there isn't some kind of successor to it. (admittedly, it was ridiculously powerful)

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foxxxer
foxxxer


Famous Hero
posted June 08, 2011 09:18 AM

"Armageddon -> All non-infernal creatures, obstacles and walls on the Combat Map are dealt Fire Damage."
I hope that Armageddon won't be too powerful

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Nelgirith
Nelgirith


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted June 08, 2011 09:21 AM
Edited by Nelgirith at 09:22, 08 Jun 2011.

Quote:
"Armageddon -> All non-infernal creatures, obstacles and walls on the Combat Map are dealt Fire Damage."
I hope that Armageddon won't be too powerful

It's the Utimate skill for the Pyromancer. It will either be totally worthless or totally overpowered

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MrDragon
MrDragon


Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
posted June 08, 2011 09:25 AM

They presented it in the week of Fire Magic but it is also listed as a Pyromancer (Inferno magic blood advanced class) ultimate ability on the reputation website.
Does that imply that every ultimate ability is part of an appropriate skill tree for that class?
I thought they had a special class tab for that. (sreenshots seem to indicate Might, Magic and Class subdivisions for the skills/abilities.)

Anybody got an answer?

Also on the firebolt -> fireball -> ??? discussion, it seems there is indeed 5x5 fire damage spell another rank higher.
I think that does indeed indicate a chain or requirement.
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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted June 08, 2011 09:37 AM
Edited by Dave_Jame at 09:38, 08 Jun 2011.

Quote:

If you could describe anything as the flip of a coin it was H5 where initiative artifacts were retardedly powerful and 8 init marksmen could play before 10 init master hunters. Now initiative is very specific and you know exactly in what order your units will move.



I would describe it more as a wind in the Sails. It gave the user a huge advantage, but still it was mechanical,
I Do think that Initiative was a god idea, but needed some adjustments.

As many others I Fail to see the prose in the new frenzy, It is now uncontrable, and has fewer tactical uses.
For example one of my favorite uses of berserker in Heroes 2-3 was to to disable the enemy Hero. Casting it on his last unite made shure I am safe from his spells.
Also I am one of those who used Berserker in Heroes V on his own troops. The increased damage was a good thing on Hydras.


About todays spells
Armagedon: So it is presented as a fire spell. Still it is an Inferno ability. interesting.
Fire storm: A more or less generic spell. still hoping for the fire shield and walking bomb
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self.

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we
store, we teach. We are
many,
and you can be one of us.

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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted June 08, 2011 09:37 AM

@MrDragon: I think that the Inferno Unique Abilities (eg. Armageddon) wil appear in the Class ability section of the Ability tree and not the Fire Magic tree which only has Ranks 1 to 3 magic.

Yes I also thought Firebolt -> Fireball -> Fire Storm (you need the one to get the other)

Fire storm looks hot, seems similar to Meteor Shower which was an Earth Magic spell.....


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Mike80D
Mike80D


Famous Hero
Map Maker
posted June 08, 2011 09:38 AM

I love the new Frenzy, and agree with Elvin on its tactical relevance.

Hopefully there is a Dwarven Shield type artifact that once again can make your army Immune to the spell though

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foxxxer
foxxxer


Famous Hero
posted June 08, 2011 09:39 AM

Quote:
It's the Utimate skill for the Pyromancer. It will either be totally worthless or totally overpowered

Yeah, I know but if the basic damage is too powerful and after that hero's magic attack rise it more... it will be super unbalanced.
Quote:
I thought they had a special class tab for that. (sreenshots seem to indicate Might, Magic and Class subdivisions for the skills/abilities.)

Haven racial abilities. I think that for Inferno Armageddon will be somwhere in this section.


Quote:
Also on the firebolt -> fireball -> ??? discussion, it seems there is indeed 5x5 fire damage spell another rank higher.
I think that does indeed indicate a chain or requirement.


As I said before I also suppose that the spells are conected.



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