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Kenishi
Famous Hero
passed out drunk in Tavern's
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posted December 29, 2010 10:58 AM |
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I think you can work around the pesky are control, if you’re into economic warfare …
First suppose that you can put guards inside a mine...ok (I believe it will be aloud, I could in H5 so I don`t see way it shouldn`t work in H6).
Second you build a secondary hero and go for the mine and you put 1 unit from a stack as a guard for the mine … and that`s it, if you live area control can`t take the mine back.
Granted is less efficient (the need to leave units) than in the former games but still I suppose it doable.
This theory of mine works if first rule goes, and I`m pretty sure there’s a thread opened for the area control and the way it works.
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No Gods, no Masters. Knowledge is Power, and Power is Freedom
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 29, 2010 11:03 AM |
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Quote:
I think you can work around the pesky are control, if you’re into economic warfare …
First suppose that you can put guards inside a mine...ok (I believe it will be aloud, I could in H5 so I don`t see way it shouldn`t work in H6).
Second you build a secondary hero and go for the mine and you put 1 unit from a stack as a guard for the mine … and that`s it, if you live area control can`t take the mine back.
Granted is less efficient (the need to leave units) than in the former games but still I suppose it doable.
This theory of mine works if first rule goes, and I`m pretty sure there’s a thread opened for the area control and the way it works.
Well it's doable in theory, but in reality it's throwing money away, because the owner will just buy a new hero, load him up with 1/3 of the garrison, and go around the area pounding you flat.
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted December 29, 2010 11:10 AM |
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you can ambush that 1/3 garrison hero while he's at it (or at least scare him away from taking those mines). Leaving one high growth creep per mine isn't a big deal especially since you have only 4 types now and not 8.
IF you can indeed leave creeps in mines in H6.
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none of my business.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted December 29, 2010 11:17 AM |
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"1/3 of the garrison"
And that's spreading them thin. You could have a sneaky hero on stand by and jump on him and obliterate as soon as he steps out. Or even someone with a larger amount of troops who could seize just that chance to take over the fort.
@zenofex
Semantics if you ask me. No matter how good your strategies before the battle, once fighting you won't have a chance of winning against someone who has taken care both of his town managing and formulating detailful battle plans. To me, that's strategic movements and planning as much as taking care of your resources and building your empire is.
A well co-ordinated assault by a network of heroes supporting each other on the map and taking full advantage of each unit's special abiltiies and purpose in the battlefield, also the overall core philosophy of the fighting prowess and weaknesses of every faction, yours and the enemy's, can overcome easily an opponent who has just geared up for battle but coming with no battle plans.
To someone who doesn't pay attention to the details of the battle, his units are mere rank fillers.
That doesn't only apply to HoMM but any other strategical issue.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 29, 2010 11:27 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 11:29, 29 Dec 2010.
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Quote:
Semantics if you ask me.
I don't.  Arguing further about this is pointless.
About the control point - I'm curious how this thing will be manned. Placing a purchasable, town-generated garrison, which is supposed to be transported to each control point via a hero to guard it will make its defense tens of times more tedious than guarding single mines. I really hope they'll come up with something more creative, otherwise the whole "reduce micro-management" exercise will be in vain and will produce exactly the opposite results.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 29, 2010 12:13 PM |
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Xhane finally posted some news!
Blood Moon was upon us for real!
Check out this incredible news: http://tv.gawker.com/5715592/beautiful-time-lapse-video-of-last-nights-winter-solstice-lunar-eclipse
Looks like the Blood Moon eclipse came last week on the world. Time to hunt unleashed demons!
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Kenishi
Famous Hero
passed out drunk in Tavern's
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posted December 29, 2010 06:49 PM |
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Yes well my point was that in theory is doable if it`s worth the effort or not Is up to the player…
Quote:
Well it's doable in theory, but in reality it's throwing money away, because the owner will just buy a new hero, load him up with 1/3 of the garrison, and go around the area pounding you flat.
O and I wasn`t referring to buy creatures and use the strategy on long play basis just the troops you get when buying the hero and more for harassing and not real gain of resources, an irked opponent is easier to beat (also this strategy works beater when you know the location of said mines)
Quote:
you can ambush that 1/3 garrison hero while he's at it (or at least scare him away from taking those mines). Leaving one high growth creep per mine isn't a big deal especially since you have only 4 types now and not 8.
IF you can indeed leave creeps in mines in H6.
Would imply that you have a secondary hero (if the main one isn`t home) and a lot of people considered the introduction of area control as making a secondary hero useless.
What I wanted to point out is that not all of the older strategies from before H6 have been nullified by the changes announced , just have to make up new ones or adapt to the new given rules.
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No Gods, no Masters. Knowledge is Power, and Power is Freedom
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Aatos
Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
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posted December 29, 2010 07:21 PM |
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Quote:
Besides, why should a strategy be removed? Just because it's annoying?
Yes. Games should be fun.
I think that it would be good if movement points of heroes would increase with level, instead of being increased by a skill or an artifact. That way your main hero could always catch a low level hero who is capturing mines pretty fast and both main heroes would have approximately the same amount of movement points.
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To fail to plan is to plan to
fail.
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Aatos
Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
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posted December 29, 2010 08:39 PM |
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Quote:
Then devise some strategy against it. If you want to play a game with only the 'fun' bits, go play a TBT, leave the TBS to those of us who put as much emphasis on economic management as on tactical supremacy.
Heroes 6 is a TBS and it is going to have area of control and one rare resource and it's going to be as fun as the previous games, if not more fun. If you don't like it tell that to the developing team and the publisher.
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To fail to plan is to plan to
fail.
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serptico
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 29, 2010 09:46 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Besides, why should a strategy be removed? Just because it's annoying?
Yes. Games should be fun.
I think that it would be good if movement points of heroes would increase with level, instead of being increased by a skill or an artifact. That way your main hero could always catch a low level hero who is capturing mines pretty fast and both main heroes would have approximately the same amount of movement points.
That would be the worst idea ever, how would you feel if a level 10 enemy hero hunted down all your lvl 1 heroes preventing you to ever reaching high level??? You will never win the game. Not a good idea to buff too much a feature like that it will create extreme unbalancing issues.
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Aatos
Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
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posted December 29, 2010 09:49 PM |
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Quote:
I think that it would be good if movement points of heroes would increase with level, instead of being increased by a skill or an artifact. That way your main hero could always catch a low level hero who is capturing mines pretty fast and both main heroes would have approximately the same amount of movement points.
I modify this idea so that you have a movement point bonus when you are close to your town and mines.
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To fail to plan is to plan to
fail.
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serptico
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 29, 2010 11:42 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I think that it would be good if movement points of heroes would increase with level, instead of being increased by a skill or an artifact. That way your main hero could always catch a low level hero who is capturing mines pretty fast and both main heroes would have approximately the same amount of movement points.
I modify this idea so that you have a movement point bonus when you are close to your town and mines.
I remember playing H4 with my spy being invisible and capturing the entire map's mines constantly stealing from everyone. That was such an unbalanced system. I control every single mine for months and as soon as my enemy re-captured his mine I swooped back in and captured it back again. It was impossible for the AI to take control over his mines for a long period of time. That's how I stagnated his empire and eventually lost military power and captured his capital.
So with the addition of area of control, already it's enough to counter such a strategy. Because if you think about it, you really need to control a mine or even better mines for a long period of time to do real damage to your opponents. They will eventually suffer economically and militarily. So with area of control, the player is going to be compelled to capture a castle rather than a mine to deal a big blow to his enemy, strickly speaking, for a long term strategy thats whats gonna happen.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 30, 2010 12:37 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 01:04, 30 Dec 2010.
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Heroes 6 is a TBS and it is going to have area of control and one rare resource and it's going to be as fun as the previous games, if not more fun. If you don't like it tell that to the developing team and the publisher.
I hold 3 things about them for the resources, and 2 for the Area of Control:
Res 1: They've removed 3 resources.
Res 2: The three resources were all rare resources, if they'd pulled 2 rare and one building resource I wouldn't be complaining quite so much.
Res 3: They've named the remaining rare resource 'Crystallised Dragon Blood', as if people weren't sick enough of Dragons already.
AoC 1: It removes pretty much every skirmishing strategy.
AoC 2: You grab enemy mines, but not unowned-but-unguarded mines, those you still have to grab later.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted December 30, 2010 12:59 AM |
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Quote:
Res 3: They've named the remaining rare resource 'Crystalised Dragon Blood', as if people weren't sick enough of Dragons already.
I think they're just named "Crystals" as usual ingame (and if not, I'll have a bone to pick too  ).
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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Xevronixussor
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 30, 2010 12:31 PM |
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I'm surprised that after 6 instalments of the series they still stick to the basic unit types of flyer-shooter-walker-caster.
What would you think of introducing some new twists into this system of roles? Do you think that the following examples would add more tactical depth to the battles? Or would they be unnecessary? Maybe overcomplicated?
For example:
"Slow flyers"
Creatures that are not hindered by obstacles, eg. they jump, tunnel, levitate, but cannot be used to zip to the other side of the battlefield and act like anti-shooter units.
For example, a giant TOADthat is bulky and slow, but is jumping a few tiles when moving, ignoring walls and obstacles.
A more limited type of unit could be "climber walkers" that would have their normal movement range as a walker, but could also (passively, not as an activated ability) cross obstacles and walls, just with a reduced movement range.
Would these add more depth to the battle?
Or:
"Flyer interceptor" units
Creatures that serve as anti-aircraft units, intercepting and stopping the path of incoming flyers when they approach the neighbouring tiles or any other "area of control" of the unit.
For example, a giant TOADthat is slow and bulky, but (as a passive ability) pulls flyers out of the air with a sudden shot of its sticky tongue, when they touch the neighbouring tiles. These could be strategically positioned to protect shooters in the back lines
Or:
"Short range shooters"
Shooters with a limited range, being able to shoot only to a certain number of tiles away. These would need to be either used as defensive units, shooting incoming walkers and flyers, or would need to be moved significantly closer to the enemy lines to be useful. (The strike and return ability of some of the actual HOMM units is quite like this)
For example a giant TOAD... for whatever reason
What do you think? Why hasn't some innovation been introduced to the basic movement/attack types so far? Too complicated, or the contrary, unnecessary and uninteresting?
More importantly, why do you think a giant TOAD has not been introduced to the series so far?
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maeerol
Hired Hero
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posted December 30, 2010 01:23 PM |
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Edited by maeerol at 13:23, 30 Dec 2010.
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The non-appearance of dragon it's ok to me, but why take of their "siblings"? Where are the wyrms, wyverns and drakes?
And the minotaurs and medusas? Where are all the awesome units?
Well, I really expect the new faction, or even the expansion packs fix these soon.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 30, 2010 05:21 PM |
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Quote:
Wow, I'm arguing that the game is bad because it has many dragons? Where did you produce this from?  I get the idea - you like dragons and you don't mind them being like roaches, but if you are willing to argue about it, don't put words in my mouth, OK?
Second - I'm talking about Heroes V and to lesser extent - Heroes III. The neutral dragons in the latter game were almost never encountered, which exactly what I call "rare". I hope the difference does not need explanation word by word.
Yes, it's not a fact that the plot sucks, it's just my opinion and the opinion of the distinguishably greater part of the Heroes fanbase. Sorry, it's just like this - opinions tend to suck even more when they are not like yours.
And third - actually you came here and started again this dragon argument, so what are you trying to say now?
@Elvin - New Year's celebrations start tomorrow, so it's fully legal to have a jihad or two today. 
Keep it civil. No Jihads, please.
On topic, I kind of disagree with you. I don't think having Dragons as top tier units for four factions was necessarily bound to be a sign of creative impotence - in fact, you could turn it around and say it was a creative challenge to have four level 7's called "dragons" and then make them sufficiently different from each other that it did not seem like repetition.
Did they succeed at that challenge? Well, not very well, at least not in H5 vanilla. On the other hand, come TotE, they did sort of move it a bit along, as the alternative upgrades had some new abilities that stood about a bit from each other (Incinerate, Prismatic Breath). Personally, I actually do think that the Magma Dragon played very differently from the other dragons and worked as such. As for the Bone Dragon - that was perhaps the weekest one in the lot, as it had a very dissapointing set of special abilities (or lack of same).
As for the Dragon Mythology - you may like it or not, that's a matter of taste. Personally, I actually do like it, I like how it gives the different races some properties and associations to build the factions upon.
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What will happen now?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 30, 2010 06:10 PM |
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Well, I'm not really intending to start a flame war, that was mostly a joke. The subject however seems volatile enough.
Quote:
On topic, I kind of disagree with you. I don't think having Dragons as top tier units for four factions was necessarily bound to be a sign of creative impotence - in fact, you could turn it around and say it was a creative challenge to have four level 7's called "dragons" and then make them sufficiently different from each other that it did not seem like repetition.
That's partly what I mean. These 3/4 dragons and their upgrades were very similar - appearance, attributes and so on, so they were like half-clones (as usual, only the Bone Dragon was different enough). The other part is that I would prefer each faction to have an unique top tier creature - that would be more creative in my book. They could have built the storyline around some Angels instead of Primordial Dragons, but I don't think many people would like idea of several types of Angels as top tier creatures just because it fits the lore.
Quote:
As for the Dragon Mythology - you may like it or not, that's a matter of taste. Personally, I actually do like it, I like how it gives the different races some properties and associations to build the factions upon.
I already stated that it's an opinion, just like the statements in favour of the said mythology are just opinions. I don't like it because it's hopelessly generic and exploits the generally positive attitude of many would-be buyers in reference to the dragons as mythological creatures. Even if it has some potential, it is very well-hidden - at least regarding Heroes V. I really hope that Heroes VI will redeem its predecessor.
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serptico
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 30, 2010 06:47 PM |
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Does anyone know if were all going to be riding horses? And not some half baked dino lizard! lol. And are they stealing from H5 feature where they leave tracks on the ground or some kind of a trail to judge the armie's strength.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted December 30, 2010 06:55 PM |
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If you mean heroes all riding horses, I certainly hope not.
Orcs and Demons should ride something else. Orcs should ride Boars or Rhinos or something. Demons should ride Nightmares at worst or be on foot like in HV, or ride some demonthing.
We already know Knights and Necromacers ride horses. I hope non-humans won't.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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