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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 28, 2010 10:10 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 10:12, 28 Dec 2010.
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Only the most basic of things and those are from words. They haven't even shown us a gameplay video except the Igromir clip and that's unofficial. And you simply won't know how things affect the overall game experience until you actually play the game.
When you are saying this, have you really thought how many are the actual options? They are not too many, that's for sure. There is absolutely no way to make 4 resources as different and applicable to as many situations as 7 resources. This is simple counting, there is no need hold a special conference with professional mathematicians and philosophers as advisors to come to such conclusion. Less is less, end of story. If one likes it or doesn't like it, it's his personal point of view and there are no objective ("scientific") arguments to convince him that he's wrong. My personal point of view is that they could have thought of a way to make 5 of these 7 resources usable not only for contstruction, because the main (and quite poor by the way) complaint is that when one town is fully developed, the respective faction uses only gold and its main rare resource (like wood and stone are used from this point forward - still they'll be present in MMH VI). Clearly they don't consider this element too important and decided to focus on something else.
As for the new tier system - the main differences I see here are the (eventual) common pool for each tier and greater complexity in balancing the different creatures - once inside their own tier for the respective faction and one more time against all the other creatures from the rest of the factions. There is no problem whatsoever to make a tier 1 creature useful even in month 4, 5, 6, etc. Useful abilities, progressive growth augmentation each weak (for the lower tiers), some special dwellings available only in the late game which boost the performance of the weaker creatures only, special formations, available through the hero and improving the damage tolerance of the first few tiers... You want more? For now this change is not a proven improvement, it's just a change. We'll see if it's really better or worse only when the game comes out. The old system wasn't flawed to need urgent replacement though, just underdeveloped.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 28, 2010 10:26 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 10:42, 28 Dec 2010.
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Of course that isn't going to be the case, but I can see WHY they are taking the direction they are. Less resources = less coding, as does less creatures. So they can (theoretically) work on the game play, bugs, etc and still have it out by their deadline. Understand, that we are not talking unlimited money, unlimited time, and not worrying about making a profit out of it.
If they were trying to save money on the coding then why did they completely rewrite every last bit of gameplay, from resources to towns to hero skills, wouldn't it have been better to just take H5, change the factions a bit, iron out as many bugs as they could, touch up the graphics etc.?
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Now there are some who will say "Then why not just take previous editions..add better graphics, tweak it, and release it." There are several issues with that.
1) People will say they are just 'milking the cash cow'..and they will lose fans.
2) Not as easy as it sounds.
3) Who wants to just play an old game with enhanced graphics? Ok .. so I do..but that is beside the point! ((Right now am replaying Final Fantasy VII  )).
As well as problems I haven't even thought of.
How old were you thinking, H3 (11 years old) or H5 (4 years old). If it's the former I agree, it's dead and buried, but if it's the latter, I don't see much of an issue.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted December 28, 2010 11:48 AM |
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Lets think on it like this. Just for the sake of argument, lets say that you are faced with a choice. 5 towns, with 3-4 resources, and 14 creatures (7 with one upgrade each)..that is very detailed..well thought out and able to be delivered on time relatively bug free. Or .. 20 towns, 7 resources, 20 creatures each town that might take years to develop and due to cost may NEVER be released.
I have no problem with a 5 town release and then more towns in later expansions.
But the "steamlining" DOES have me worried. I love extra large type maps. With less tiers of creatures and less resources I think it will be harder to make such large maps interesting. Oh, I am quite sure there will be SOME interesting epic maps made by great mapmakers but I think it will be harder for mapmakers to have enough "filler" material to keep the player having the "tension" of "I must find this resource!" and other things to keep the player's heroes busy running around accomplishing stuff. Castle sitting is not interesting. Of course mapmakers can come up with all sorts of ideas and hopefully the map editor will be powerful and easy to use.
While the streamlining may make for faster multiplayer games it is my OPINION that the games will be less interesting and single player more so. Of course as we get more information my opinion may change. I am not trying to throw a damp rag on HOMM6 enthusiasm, just expressing my concerns.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 28, 2010 12:33 PM |
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Of course that isn't going to be the case, but I can see WHY they are taking the direction they are. Less resources = less coding, as does less creatures. So they can (theoretically) work on the game play, bugs, etc and still have it out by their deadline. Understand, that we are not talking unlimited money, unlimited time, and not worrying about making a profit out of it.
Sorry, but making 4 or 7 ressources does zero difference to the amount of coding needed in the large picture, so I don't buy this at all. There might be a balance question they want to take into consideration which could merit less ressources from a time (and money) point of view, but I believe this decision is made entirely out from a point of view that they want to increase competition over resorces - eh, that is the resource.
One may agree or disagree with this decision. Personally, I disagree with it; the reason for that being that as Zenofex very clearly pointed out, less ressources means less flexibility, and that the maps and gamestyles I favor to play not are particularly competitive. What I fear is that they streamline they game towards solely favoring online competitive playing and that they neglect the long-scale epic-size maps that some of us (including me) love to play - or, loved to play back in the H3 days, since this kind of playing already was impossible in H5 (due to crappy game engine).
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What will happen now?
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admira
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 28, 2010 01:41 PM |
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I agree with Zenofex in many ways.
Lore-wise
Yes I missed Erathia, Kreegan, Deyja, and Avlee. While the story of Alien Demons invaded a Fantasy world (in which the birth of almost-included-new-faction Forge) with Phase Gun, Laser Gun, etc sounds corny (although I personally the one wish to have forge in Heroes III), but it made up a great lore in-game actually.
What about the Dragon God? It sounds as corny as well, unfortunately the Heroes V that took place in the new universe released as the first game in that universe failed to cover the story as the Heroes II and III covered the corny story for Alien invaded world of Erathia and Enroth.
Gameplay-wise
The reason why I STILL give Heroes III as the best of the series because it is flawless, make me replayed campaigns because I wanted to try different things not because some bugs who make me repeat the same mission 3 times already!! (Markal's 1000 Skeleton and 10 Bone Dragon quest *sigh*), but that's it. The only thing that different is Necropolis with Necromancy, other than that it is actually a re-skinned factions. Yeah, they have impressively 9 factions but for me they have only 2: Necropolis and the others.
IF only Heroes V's flawless bugs on original release, I would support it as the best game-play on Heroes series. Unique racial skill, Initiative System (Booo black hole), Skill Wheel and creatures that actually feel different compares to other (not in an awesome way but it is a good start IMHO).
as for the new series, Heroes VI, there are some things that I like: Heroes Branching with different unique skill on each class, Town Unique Building, New Art direction (still worry about in-game Rendering though), Control Point and there are things that I dislike or in some case mixed feel about them: Reduced cost type, the lost of Dragons as top tier creature, Haven's Radiant (yeah, I hate it so much. That I would rather have my Holy Swordian from my entry in fan-made faction to replace her). But what I can really see that they really worked seriously on the art and lore, so the hope is, they will be able to cover the corny lore this time and the things that I dislike are actually turn out to be good or at least grow on me. That's all my opinion.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted December 28, 2010 02:30 PM |
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About the less resources thingie, so far we can only give them the benefit of doubt. See how it works out and then if we really don't like it then complain about it. You can't really say that it's going to be too late by then, cause I don't think a change like this would bring ruin to the whole game. Although I'm sure those close-minded Ashan haters will dislike it wether it works well or not. 
For one, I would have like to have all resources back. I don't know their reasoning on taking them out. But if it's anything like because the many different resources were not as necessery to different faction, so that now that it's one it will be more important and that somehow will affect the startegic elements and intension of the game even more; well, I do not agree.
If other resources were not as important for some factions, devs should find ways to make them important instead of taking them out in their entirety. That's what I think.
But oh well, benefit of doubt, wait and see how it turns out. Such changes aren't enough for me to hate or love the new game.
I just hope that just like the resources and factions, we won't see less of everything such as creatures, heroes, neutrals, town buildings etc.
That's when I'm going to hate it, and I don't care how much better would it play or not.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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KingImp
Famous Hero
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posted December 28, 2010 03:42 PM |
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I'm sure this isn't something anyone but the most inside insiders would know, but I'll try anyway.
Are they going to be bringing back the high score lists? To me, playing a single player map with no type of reward at the end aside from winning is pretty lame. I used to love seeing where I ranked in Heroes 3 & 4 after finishing a map, but then inexplicably Nival and/or Ubi decided that this was no longer necessary to have in the game. Bad move! 
If anyone one here has their ear or if they themselves are reading along, please bring back the high score function for ALL maps.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted December 28, 2010 03:46 PM |
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But there were High Score lists in H5 last time I checked (campaigns and scenarios).
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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Aatos
Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
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posted December 28, 2010 04:15 PM |
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A resource silo is a mine within a town, I think that the town should not produce resources other than gold, so players are encouraged to capture mines.
Resource Silos produce barely anything, so the incentive is still there.
Like I said, they produce as much as a mine.
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and also because all factions will require the same resource economic warfare should be more pronounced.
No, economic warfare will be virtually zero, sieges will be far more common.
Players will fight for the Dragon Blood resource.
They had two choices when it comes to resources. They could have kept four rare resources and made them more important for each faction, or they could have made one rare resource which all factions need. Both choices are good in my opinion, they chose the simpler version.
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Another dislike is no more randomization of skills on level up. Having to chose between random skills at level up helps keep the game fresh. Randomization = good. Same old same old = bad.
I think that the ability to have complete control over your hero development is one of the best features of H6.
Like I said before, I think that Heroes is a game of skill, and it doesn't need randomness. Having the ability to choose your skills, abilities, attributes and spells will allow you to create strategy and tactics without any interference. Your choices will be the reason for your hero's strengths and weaknesses, and it is also realistic for a hero to be able to choose what to learn. 
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To fail to plan is to plan to
fail.
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Kenishi
Famous Hero
passed out drunk in Tavern's
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posted December 28, 2010 04:42 PM |
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Edited by Kenishi at 16:44, 28 Dec 2010.
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I read all the opinions regarding the decrease of mine number and I see how people think that by reducing the number of mine types would decreases the need of searching and doing some mine stalling, people think of it like this if we had 7 mines and ware aloud I don`t know 100 mines on the maps what makes you think that they couldn’t block you to have a max of 30 mines on the map .. just asking. Ergo it doesn’t really mater the number of mines 7 or 4 (maybe in the beginning when finding the right type of mine would help or not mattered), let’s be serious the of the value mines you owned except maybe gold mine, decreased in late game when you head 100 or more of any resource, so for me isn`t that much of an issue.
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What I fear is that they streamline they game towards solely favoring online competitive playing and that they neglect the long-scale epic-size maps that some of us (including me) love to play - or, loved to play back in the H3 days, since this kind of playing already was impossible in H5 (due to crappy game engine).
True this matter should be carefully approached, and as I have repeated myself over and over I don’t really care what faction is in or out what creature is in or out if trying to play a huge map with 8 PC and you have to face insufferable waiting time for your turn to come is still an issue, than for me is a failed game, after all a lot of people loved and still do love the slow paced and the fact that you can continue the game you stared a month ago without any sort of problems. But I hope that the Black Hole and Ubisoft have taken this matter in consideration, not all people want competitive online game some want a game with solid story line (at least makes sense), well balanced factions and diverse enough creatures as I don’t feel that they are the same stuff reskinned.
As for the whole tier system, I think that choosing a creature from another from the same pool will have to be influenced by the abilities and or other strengths that he bring, also if you think enough by having pools means that uber armies like one with hundreds of X creatures would decrease after all you steal need a archer an melee to protect the archer and maybe an buffer to increase the efficiency of your troops, but this is very much conditioned by the way they balance the different creatures from one pool.
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No Gods, no Masters. Knowledge is Power, and Power is Freedom
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SwampLord
Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
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posted December 28, 2010 06:54 PM |
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I think one of the other main concerns is the effect it may have on town building and town variety; typically, managing your special resources well was very important to build your town perfectly, and each town usually focused around a couple of special resources. This served to set them apart from one another even further.
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They can take my swamp, they can take my town, but they will never take my FREEDOM!
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 28, 2010 07:52 PM |
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Like I said, they produce as much as a mine.
One single mine is piddly, I mean even if you had everything else it would take 4 weeks to build up enough to build a complete Mage Guild in H3
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Players will fight for the Dragon Blood resource.
They can't, you can no longer grab mines, you now have to grab towns.
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They had two choices when it comes to resources. They could have kept four rare resources and made them more important for each faction, or they could have made one rare resource which all factions need. Both choices are good in my opinion, they chose the simpler version.
Simpler, but less versatile.
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Aatos
Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
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posted December 28, 2010 08:22 PM |
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I think that the new system is good because there will be more fights armies versus armies and armies versus towns. A single secondary hero who perhaps has logistics going around capturing mines was kind of boring in my opinion.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 28, 2010 08:30 PM |
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Boring, no, annoying yes, but then that's the price of versatility. Also, the Area of Control thing is a separate issue to a reduced number of resources.
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Aatos
Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
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posted December 28, 2010 09:10 PM |
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I'm glad that the area of control and the reduced number of resources will make opponents face each other more often.
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Orfinn
Supreme Hero
Werewolf Duke
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posted December 28, 2010 09:11 PM |
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Edited by Orfinn at 21:12, 28 Dec 2010.
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You have got to be kidding me. The Water Elemental was purely awsome.
It was horrible. Its snaky form was cool, but the strange pink and sissy little-pony stuff should go in the next model.
And I want a phoenix like this: 
Nice phoenix, seems egyptian inspired, judging by the amulets symbol.
Is the story about it the same as the legends? I ask, since it is green. Though I have read about the legends but the color have been different from one version to another.
And what do you think of the blue Phoenix in H6 who are reborn during moon.. was it?
I think its original? and it looks waaaaay better than the one oin H5. Because of the simple fact that it dosent have the generally UGLY look and... dragon like wings 
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted December 28, 2010 09:18 PM |
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Like the bird
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none of my business.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted December 28, 2010 09:21 PM |
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And what do you think of the blue Phoenix in H6 who are reborn during moon.. was it?
I think its original? and it looks waaaaay better than the one oin H5. Because of the simple fact that it dosent have the generally UGLY look and... dragon like wings
I don't know what is the legend about it because its a drawing from somebody on Deviantart
I think this fits better with the Sylvan town thema! Also thunderbirds should be eagles, phoenixes some other type of bird.
I hated the phoenix in HOMM5, never again... the ones in homm4 were horrible aswel...
I never seen the homm6 phoenix, is it really blue? COOL! Where can I find the picture?
I think that the H4 Phoenix is the best yet but I still don't like it very much. I've yet to see a design for Phoenix that I like in the whole Heroes saga. Here's hoping that H6's Phoenix will do that for me. I hope they won't make it look like a Dragon again though...
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Dexter
Known Hero
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posted December 28, 2010 09:29 PM |
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The Heroes II Phoenix was the best in the whole series. Had something so magical in it. But the blue one from Heroes VI also seems nice, but I have to see the full quality artwork and in-game model to make up my mind.
@Nightterror: You can find it in the artwork section. First page if I remember correctly.
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blizz
Known Hero
of temper grace
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posted December 28, 2010 09:30 PM |
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Edited by blizz at 21:38, 28 Dec 2010.
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I never seen the homm6 phoenix, is it really blue? COOL! Where can I find the picture?
h6 phoenix
Well this is the only picture of a h6 phoenix ( on a T-shirt) i guess.Or have i missed something?
It looks rather nice compared to the previous games.
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