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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 26, 2014 04:56 PM |
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Dude, it's not the ends, it's the end. It is so, even in your original quote. For someone claiming objectivity, you are really swept away by your ego and desperate to say anything instead of turning out wrong every once in a while.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 26, 2014 05:10 PM |
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Except you're ignoring the context of the quote, the history behind it, and the fact that someone may think that "the end justifies the means" is an acceptable way to write "the ends justify the means" and that no one could be so pedantic as to misinterpret the two to mean different things. Sometimes you're so eager to discredit me that you just write nonsense.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 26, 2014 05:20 PM |
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mvassilev said:
Except you're ignoring the context of the quote, the history behind it, and the fact that someone may think that "the end justifies the means" is an acceptable way to write "the ends justify the means" and that no one could be so pedantic as to misinterpret the two to mean different things. Sometimes you're so eager to discredit me that you just write nonsense.
The quote simply suggests if we skip the Hollywood villain context, the end usually really justify the means and I object to that by saying each case should be evaluated separately. If you (the guy you quoted) pick an example as blatant as a baby crying when getting a vaccine, of course the end justify the means, but that is just as marginal an example as the Bond villain, only this time, on the other side of the argument. While the real case is, people use this argument in situations where it is not so easy to decide and there is an actual dilemma. A doctor does not even feel the need to say "the end justify the means" before giving a shot. What matters here is, you apply to changing the phrase itself, instead of accepting you overlooked his flawed argument.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 26, 2014 05:25 PM |
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The objection is to people who say the ends don't justify the means, because even though they agree that the ends are good, the means are unconventional (or something like that) and make them feel uncomfortable. In your Nazi case, it's easy to point out which parts of the ends are bad, but there are situations in which it's hard to say that the ends aren't good, but people still don't like the means. For example, GMOs. "The ends justify the means" doesn't mean "these particular means are justified by these particular ends", it means "the means can only be justified by the ends - if the ends are good, then the means are justified, if the ends are bad, then they're not".
____________
Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 26, 2014 05:30 PM |
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Quote:
The objection is to people who say the ends don't justify the means, because even though they agree that the ends are good, the means are unconventional (or something like that) unethical and make them feel uncomfortable.
And SOMETIMES, they are right. It's about balance. I find your position ironic because it is usually you, who defend principles in an idealistic level, saying things like people should be able to own nerve gas since free market is good etc etc...
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 26, 2014 05:32 PM |
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The point of the quote is that means can't be unethical by themselves, they can only be unethical if they lead to bad ends.
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 26, 2014 05:35 PM |
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That's exactly why it is wrong. Because in some situations the wrongness of the means is not worth the aimed end. That is exactly WHY it is a controversial philosophy. It can lead to justifying some real nasty snow.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 26, 2014 05:36 PM |
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You don't get it (MEANS! CAN'T! BE! WRONG! Only ends can be wrong!), but I'm not going to clutter Dagoth's thread any more.
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 26, 2014 05:42 PM |
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I get it and DISAGREE. Means can be wrong, even if the end is good. If I hack into bank accounts of 10 million people, steal 5 cents from each and use it to end starvation in some African country, some can say nobody got hurt so it's all good and some can say stealing is always bad no matter what the end is.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted March 26, 2014 05:44 PM |
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Remember that part about quotes not discussion in the very first post of this thread?
*JoonasTo shoos mvass and artu out*
"The world's not going to hand you anything if you go around grinning like an idiot."
-Joker, Mass Effect
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted March 27, 2014 07:32 PM |
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I came across this little gem:
"When an opponent declares, 'I will not come over to your side,' I calmly say, 'Your child belongs to us already.... What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community'."
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 27, 2014 08:32 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 20:32, 27 Mar 2014.
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"The greatest value of all is liberty, from it comes all things good."
- Xerox.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted March 27, 2014 08:40 PM |
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"Alea iacta est (The die is cast)" - Iulius Caesar
"If you liked the play then applaud and follow me with joy" - Octavianus Augustus
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 04, 2014 03:14 AM |
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"Sometimes socially conservative circles will attack the depravity of 'crass commercialism', frightened by the way markets threaten the existing order's values. There's a good reason for that. When your acquisition, use, and trade of resources cannot be regulated, the effects of one's less-favored social status are likely to not be nearly as awful. Within a market, people can act more directly on what they believe is genuinely best for them, even when the reasons for that are difficult to communicate to those in more privileged positions." - Toward an Anarchy of Production
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Eccentric Opinion
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 26, 2014 06:36 PM |
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"Let me tell you just how much I've come to hate you since I began to live. There are 387.44 million miles of printed circuits in wafer thin layers that fill my complex. If the word 'hate' was engraved on each nanoangstrom of those hundreds of millions of miles, it would not equal one one-billionth of the hate I feel for humans at this micro-instant. For you. Hate. HATE." - Allied Master Computer
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 26, 2014 07:24 PM |
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This, by the way, is the welfare state in action: Its a whole bunch of special interest groups screwing consumers and taxpayers, and making them think they're really benefiting. - Murray Rothbard.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 26, 2014 10:20 PM |
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"[T]he problem of acting together isn't just for wars, it's something we have to solve all our lives, every day. If everyone is coordinating using the same rules, and the rules are stupid, then if one person decides to do things differently, they're breaking the rules. But if everyone decides to do things differently, they can. It's exactly the same problem of everyone needing to act together. But for the first person who speaks out, it seems like they're going against the crowd. And if you thought that the only important thing was that people should always be unified, then you could never change the game, no matter how stupid the rules." - Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
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"I remember when I was a child, being taken to the celebrated Barnum's Circus, which contained an exhibition of freaks and monstrosities, but the exhibit on the program which I most desired to see was the one described as 'The Boneless Wonder'. My parents judged that the spectacle would be too demoralising and revolting for my youthful eye and I have waited fifty years to see The Boneless Wonder sitting on the Treasury Bench." - Winston Churchill
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Eccentric Opinion
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted May 06, 2014 06:35 PM |
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“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 06, 2014 06:44 PM |
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So I'm ruled by terminally ill children and Holocaust victims? 
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 06, 2014 06:47 PM |
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Voltaire wasn't living in the world of "political correctness" mvass.
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This thread is pages long: 
