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Fauch
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posted January 10, 2015 08:20 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 20:40, 10 Jan 2015.
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Quote:
I love to know what country you guys think could be run with an unemployed population of about 90% to 10% working.
USA? by employing those 10% in military to enforce the dollar as the world money. 
actually, social expenses aren't a drag on the economy, they can stimulate it, when you give more money to people it creates more activities. the true problem may instead lie in inflation. inflation makes wealthy people relatively less wealthy compared to the rest of the population, and since the people who decide the economic orientations are rarely poor, they don't want it. so they find ways to create tons of money with only a very small portion of it ever reaching real economy.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted January 10, 2015 09:18 PM |
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Edited by GunFred at 21:18, 10 Jan 2015.
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Salamandre said:
I think your young mind has yet some difficulties to perceive the world. You spew your discontent overall against Russia because its gays discrimination. Then you spew your discontent against France because its racism against Muslims, which at their roots, ANYWHERE they live, are way more intolerant or criminal against gays or against any concept of freedom, than Russia and France altogether.
meroe said:
Salamandre hit on something there that I missed.
Remember Xerox, in a muslim society you would be hanged for your sexuality.
What chance do you think you would have against the likes of ISS or a radical sect that had been allowed to go unchallenged in your liberal world?
Without having read too much of the conversation, I am just going to throw it out there...
A greater evil never justifies a lesser one. It is not alright for Russia to misstreat homosexuals just because IS treat them even worse. It is not alright for Russia to invade a sovereign nation just because the USA did it before. It is not alright for France to be racist(if they are) just because the muslims are even more so.
At best you can ignore or forgive the lesser evils when time passes or when there are bigger issues at hand.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 11, 2015 01:20 AM |
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A good article, sample:
"It effectively may appear that the split between the permissive First World and the fundamentalist reaction to it runs more and more along the lines of the opposition between leading a long satisfying life full of material and cultural wealth, and dedicating one's life to some transcendent Cause. Is this antagonism not the one between what Nietzsche called "passive" and "active" nihilism? We in the West are the Nietzschean Last Men, immersed in stupid daily pleasures, while the Muslim radicals are ready to risk everything, engaged in the struggle up to their self-destruction. William Butler Yeats’ “Second Coming” seems perfectly to render our present predicament: “The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.” This is an excellent description of the current split between anemic liberals and impassioned fundamentalists. “The best” are no longer able fully to engage, while “the worst” engage in racist, religious, sexist fanaticism.
However, do the terrorist fundamentalists really fit this description? What they obviously lack is a feature that is easy to discern in all authentic fundamentalists, from Tibetan Buddhists to the Amish in the US: the absence of resentment and envy, the deep indifference towards the non-believers’ way of life. If today’s so-called fundamentalists really believe they have found their way to Truth, why should they feel threatened by non-believers, why should they envy them? When a Buddhist encounters a Western hedonist, he hardly condemns. He just benevolently notes that the hedonist’s search for happiness is self-defeating. In contrast to true fundamentalists, the terrorist pseudo-fundamentalists are deeply bothered, intrigued, fascinated, by the sinful life of the non-believers. One can feel that, in fighting the sinful other, they are fighting their own temptation."
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Fauch
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posted January 11, 2015 01:56 AM |
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they also cultivate hatred. actually, that's how a lot of leaders work, they blame all the problems on a specific group, repeat it often enough and some people eventually believe it and follow them, giving them their power.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted January 11, 2015 03:45 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 16:39, 11 Jan 2015.
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artu said:
A good article
It is an excellent article, Zizek is a philosopher very close to lacaniens psychoanalysts. He says very fair things from Nietzsche and Irish poet Yeats. To dissolve radical fundamentalism it is necessary to dare to conceive and to create the conditions of a new society which would drain energies and hopes. If they do not engage a battle for the best, they will capitulate to the madmen.
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Fauch
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posted January 11, 2015 07:43 PM |
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that sounds more like the profile of people who are easily indoctrinated. that's only then that they become the worst.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 12, 2015 12:44 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 00:45, 12 Jan 2015.
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meroe said:
If that is what you believe, then you really are wearing rose tinted spectacles. Radicalized muslim converts care nothing about the country they are living in/their families or loved ones. They are warped and fanatic. And capitulating won't save you either
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I don't think it's a stretch that a country filled with hatred has a higher probability of that hatred during into aggression. That hatred can take on many forms and the islamophobia widely spread by the press and one of France's biggest parties is part of it.
Quote:
Out of control immigration and large influxes of immigrants into an area will always cause ghetto's and produce people like this. Easily susceptible to a hate preacher or radical iman who offers them the promise of power over others, hero status, infamy and paradise - something they don't have in reality.
I know a country which had out of control immigration at one point. It created lots of ghettos yet that country ended up becoming the most powerful and prosperous nation the world has ever seen. That country is the United States of America.
Salamandre said:
I think your young mind has yet some difficulties to perceive the world. You spew your discontent overall against Russia because its gays discrimination. Then you spew your discontent against France because its racism against Muslims, which at their roots, ANYWHERE they live, are way more intolerant or criminal against gays or against any concept of freedom, than Russia and France altogether.
Really? I have a lot of Muslim friends and they are not intolerant of me because of my homosexuality. It's not like it's in the DNA of Muslims to be hateful of LGBTQ people. It's a cultural issue and cultures change. A Swedish muslim is not likely to share the views of a Muslim in Palestine or Afghanistan. Plus, there's a crucial difference here and again, it's about legislation versus attitudes. I think people are wrong to be intolerant but they have the right to be that. What they do not have the right to do is to force those intolerant views upon others which si exactly what is happening in Russia at this moment.
Quote:
You know that 250k legal immigrants are, every year, coming and installing in France. Which is a bit strange if indeed we were soooo racist. I can tell you that me + some other 50 millions French citizens are working hard in order to offer these people human conditions: a roof, wealth care, access to free education and so on. But when we ask for payback -be it in the simple form of respect at least-, we are told we are racist. And when they start to do what they do best -violence, then again, is our fault.
This, especially the last sentence, is an offensive, racist generalization that should receive a warning or penalty.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
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- John Stuart Mill
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 12, 2015 09:47 AM |
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Muslim is not a race, stop throwing racial non sense which only deviates the discussion. The same way I could accuse you of being racist toward Russians, when you spread your hate all around and put them all in same box. And now show me a Muslim country which 1) does not restrict your liberties because religion, or/and 2) wasn't in internal wars between different leading groups in the last 50 years.
Violence is the reality.
Now you will say same could apply to Christian countries time ago. Except that we passed that test. Some of us even became ridiculously liberal and now sell their country and values, in order to give a good image of themselves. We have some percussive examples here.
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted January 12, 2015 04:16 PM |
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meroe said:
I love to know what country you guys think could be run with an unemployed population of about 90% to 10% working.
That's a pretty high percentage. Personally, I think something around 50 % of unemployed people and a country would still be running decently.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 12, 2015 06:32 PM |
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actually that's realistic, in France, only about 40% of people are employed.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 12, 2015 06:42 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 18:42, 12 Jan 2015.
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Aw damn, I really didn't think the situation with employment is that bad in comparison with my country.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 12, 2015 06:54 PM |
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Orzie said:
Aw damn, I really didn't think the situation with employment is that bad in comparison with my country.
it's probably not much different in most countries. if you only consider the active population, percentages would be way higher, but the active population is less than half of the total population.
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted January 12, 2015 06:55 PM |
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Euh... This page here says 10.4 % unemployment.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 12, 2015 06:58 PM |
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That sentence would have made much more sense if it was a link.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 12, 2015 07:10 PM |
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Fauch said:
Orzie said:
Aw damn, I really didn't think the situation with employment is that bad in comparison with my country.
it's probably not much different in most countries. if you only consider the active population, percentages would be way higher, but the active population is less than half of the total population.
Perhaps. We don't have a decent unemployment benefit (I don't even know if we have any) so everyone tends to find work. Our women work as well as men even in the current rather prosperous times.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted January 12, 2015 09:43 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Muslim is not a race, stop throwing racial non sense which only deviates the discussion. The same way I could accuse you of being racist toward Russians, when you spread your hate all around and put them all in same box. And now show me a Muslim country which 1) does not restrict your liberties because religion, or/and 2) wasn't in internal wars between different leading groups in the last 50 years.
Violence is the reality.
Now you will say same could apply to Christian countries time ago. Except that we passed that test. Some of us even became ridiculously liberal and now sell their country and values, in order to give a good image of themselves. We have some percussive examples here.
I would bet that a lot, if not most, islamophobes incorrectly views muslims as stupid "sand monkeys" living on Tatooine rather than ethnically diverse followers of a theistic ideology with many branches.
If Xerox is anything like other swedes, he does not fear russians as a people or race. We can't tell ethnic russians from ethnic swedes apart anyway and having a russian name or dialect is extremily unlikely to result un unfair treatment. Sweden and Russia have had bad blood between each other since the middle ages but it has never been a conflict between swedes and russians. It has been a conflict between a kingdom and a tsardom. Swedes today do not hate russians or even fear them. Of course we loudly protest their errors when we think we see them but the actuall fear has always been about the authoritarian, powerful, ruthless and hostile superpower. When my parents' generation grew up, getting caught in the middle of a nuclear war between the USA and USSR was the top fear of the nation.
To summarize it all...
Swedes fear the russian government for historical and moral reasons but the russian ethnics are more welcome over here than they are in Russia itself. If I am to be believed, this means that the source of Xerox's potential russophobia is different from the common islamophobia. The latter being way more racially charged.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 12, 2015 10:14 PM |
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Edited by artu at 22:21, 12 Jan 2015.
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GunFred said:
The latter being way more racially charged.
Is it really? I mean, I'm sure there are some racist people in Europe just like anywhere else but in general, if some Arab, Persian, African or Turkish immigrant is not overly devoted to Islamic way of life and doesn't scream that out all the time with the way he/she acts or dresses, are they still treated badly? Because, that's not my impression from my visits over Europe (never been to France though), I was always a tourist and that's not the same as living there but still, you observe things. And even in the heat of such things, an overwhelming amount of France citizens protested racist reactions, they put flowers on an attacked mosque, the president said this was not about Islam, how is all of this racially charged?
If a significantly numerous crowd of Muslim immigrants follow a code of conduct from the Middle Ages in their every day relationships, such as beating up their daughter for kissing a boy or claiming to dance is sinful etc, that will, of course, create some dislike in any sophisticated urban culture but is it correct to identify that as racial? Because, the way I see it, the biggest problem is some people living in another century.
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Salamandre
Admirable
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Wog refugee
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posted January 12, 2015 10:46 PM |
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@Gunfred
No idea what your point is about, but let's fix something on an universal scale. Islamophobia is not a cause but an effect. Nobody is born with islam phobia, but being close to Islam and its splendors may indeed open some eyes and create apprehensions.
I am not ok with throwing "racism" so easily, for the simple matter that you will not find any political group, neither in France, UK of Germany, hostile to chinese, japanese or east countries immigration, and we receive a lot of people from those areas. Instead of accusing people of racism, for once, maybe we could interrogate ourselves what is the part of muslims responsibility in this hate and fear they generate wherever they go.
The thing is: two cultures can not coexist if they do not share common bases and values. It is obvious by now that most europeans will never adapt to sharia law, so what makes you think muslims will accept our laws? Maybe some will, but when you have 200 000 new coming every year, the assimilation percentage remains always inferior.
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GunFred
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posted January 12, 2015 11:08 PM |
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Edited by GunFred at 23:09, 12 Jan 2015.
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@Artu
It certainly is thousand times more racially charged than the former alternative but it is not a fair comparison. I would say islamophobia is quite racially charged. To be honest, it is not like I have travelled much and asked people why they hate muslims so I can only speculate based on the information I recieve.
Now that I think about it, I can imagine that TRUE racism as in, blacks being monkeys or germanic people being a superior race, is kind of growing increasingly irrelevant today. But thing is...
I think that when terrorists are pointed out as muslims over and over again, the image of a terrorist distorts from being a very evil and bloodthirsty fundamentalist creature, into the image of a turban-wearing, camel-riding "sand monkey". They may say they hate a group of people for its actions and ideology but perhaps in reality, that may only be a way to justify their own corrupted hearts and their actions against a whole group. They may not even be aware of their hearts making unfair judgment of others for them.
Myself and black people as an honest example: When I grew up, there were no black people around and all that american TV I grew up with more or less labeled them as thugs in my heart. You can bet that walking past a big black guy is more likely to make my heart skip a beat than walking past a big white guy. Naturally I have always known better than to think racist thoughts nor ever felt the need to. But they say that the heart never lies.
Lastly, that christian american guy did not see evil in the faces of the sikhs he murdered. He saw turbans and beards.
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GunFred
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posted January 13, 2015 12:03 AM |
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Edited by GunFred at 00:29, 13 Jan 2015.
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@Sal
I am well aware that islamophobia is the result of other events. Phobias and racism do not pop up from nothing. In Europe, all these terrible parties that have popped up are a symptom of how the europeans have reacted to changes in the world. Unfortunatly we have changed for the worse (on the surface at least) and absorb a little demon blood for every despicable demon we kill.
Example:
Let's pretend jews were a force of evil in pre-WW2 germany. Nazi-Germany rounds up all the jews and gets rid of them one way or another. Have they saved the ideals of their country or would the germans' hearts change for the worse?
I have never gotten the impression that France is particularly racist but those other immigrants you mentioned tend to be richer, more adaptable to a western lifestyle as well as having lower bias to begin with from the native population. Muslims on the other hand tend to have many more barriers to overcome and come from nations of poverty and war. If a nation just mindlessly accepts people who cannot adapt without extra help, it is just missing a potential humanitarian and economic boost and instead gets ghettos, crime and cultural clashes.
And about muslim responsibility...
Some people keep shouting on TV how the muslim communities should apologize and work against fundamentalism but when those communities does that, the people from before do not listen one bit. Of course the muslims themselves have a huge responsibility over themselves but it has always been the strong who gets things done for the weak cannot on its own. And the muslims are not the strong in any western country. Putting all responsibilities on the muslims themselves is like telling hoboes to take a shower, put on a suit and go to work and then be pissed when you later find him asking for change.
Another thing is: two cultures can indeed coexist although two equally large ones are unlikely to freely end up like that. If they did, they would probably end up merging pretty fast like the tribes and city states of the past. Christians and muslims are not exactly rabbits and hares and two cultures that are so far opposed to each other as well as equally large are not logistically likely to ever exist like that anyway.
Of course the majority in western nations will never accept Sharia law like you say because or nations are usually secular which makes for a great middle way where nobody can more or less force its ideas on others. Most muslim immigrants accept our secular freedoms (or they would not immigrate here to begin with) unlike us who never accepts any of their rules(which we shouldn't although there is always room for making society more fair).
Getting immigrants to assimilate is no easy thing but Europe is not even trying properly (though Europe is still the best at this in the world). BUT NOBODY! Is going to convince me that we who created infrastructure and networks for millions upon millions of people, have explored space and soon colonized it, cannot even handle immigration properly. Non-clouded people understand why immigration can become serious trouble and if you know what went wrong and learned from the past, a better future is often easy to foresee.
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