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Geny
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posted December 11, 2012 05:24 PM |
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Israel and Palestine
There are several threads spread all over the OSM about Israel, but most of them sprang out because of some violent actions of one of the sides. Id like there to be a more general thread where we can discuss things in times of (relative) peace as well as in times of military actions.
So what did we have in the last month?
A military operation aimed at stopping the firing from Gaza. The operation ended without the use of ground forces much to the satisfaction of the world's nation and the dissatisfaction of the Israeli public.
Palestine has been recognized as an observer state in the U.N. with hardly any objections.
Israel "retaliated" by announcing building plans in the E-1 sector and got seriously told off by everyone.
HAMAS celebrated 25 years since its foundation. Its leader announced that he will never recognize Israel's right to exist and that he will not be content with Gaza and Jerusalem, but will work until the Palestinians will have the "whole Palestine" including Haifa, Be'er Sheva etc.
So how have you been?
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Salamandre
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posted December 11, 2012 05:56 PM |
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Quote:
Palestine has been recognized as an observer state in the U.N. with hardly any objections.
Israel "retaliated" by announcing building plans in the E-1 sector and got seriously told off by everyone.
Yeah, it makes much sense...
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Geny
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posted December 11, 2012 06:41 PM |
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The idea was to show that if Palestine can change the reality in its favor without resorting to dialogue, then so can Israel.
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Darkshadow
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posted December 11, 2012 06:46 PM |
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What's bad about the UN seat? (so long as it's not used to represent the hamas clowns)
I mean, Israel has it's big buddies to strongarm the UN if anything serious were to happen regarding palestine.
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JoonasTo
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posted December 11, 2012 06:52 PM |
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Quote:
The idea was to show that if Palestine can change the reality in its favor without resorting to dialogue, then so can Israel.
Which is seen by the world as an uncivilised revenge move.
Speaking of jew reservates inside palestine soil, what's the point with them?
Besides of breaking geneve convention and pissing people off?
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Seraphim
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posted December 11, 2012 07:05 PM |
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Whenever I hear or read the words Israel and Palestine, it gives me the sa,e feeling as hearing the words herpes and chlamydia.
As for the UN, the whole planet knows that the UN is nothing but bureaucratic sound spam and represents our world's content and unity...
Basically, whatever the UN says, its null and void.
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Geny
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posted December 11, 2012 08:02 PM |
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@Darksy
The acknowledgement of Palestine as a member state as opposed to a member entity may not change much by itself, but it will help Palestine to push forward their demand of the '67 borders since a state has to have clear borders and '67 is largely recognized as such. The problem is that things changed since then and simply reverting back will probably fail, therefore negotiations are needed to agree on a solution, possibly involving territory swapping. Beside all that there's also the symbolic problem that Palestine manages to get what t wants without negotiating and that's not a line of thought that should be encouraged.
@Joonas
What about the Geneva convention?
The point is territory. By creating facts on the ground that there are Jews living there, it will be easier (maybe) to use that land as leverage in negotiations as it will de facto be Israeli soil.
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Darkshadow
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posted December 11, 2012 08:14 PM |
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Ill admit I don't know much about it but hasn't Palestine pushed for that position for quite some time?
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Geny
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posted December 11, 2012 08:15 PM |
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Last year they tried to push for full membership, but that requires the approval of the Security Council and the U.S. vetoed it.
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JoonasTo
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posted December 11, 2012 08:31 PM |
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So it's just conquering then. OK
I just newer saw anything to be gained by them. If you used them in negotiations you'd have to say that you'd be pulling them back. That would mean making people move from their homes so I doubt that's ever going to happen.
On the other hand they're a constant thorn in negotiations and international relations. Maybe it has some effect by proving strenght or something but to me it just seems that they're a much bigger detriment than a boon.
International court stand on the settlements, that's regarding the breach of fourth geneva convention. I assumed it was common knowledge.
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posted December 11, 2012 08:43 PM |
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Quote:
By creating facts on the ground that there are Jews living there, it will be easier (maybe) to use that land as leverage in negotiations as it will de facto be Israeli soil.
Disgusting 
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Geny
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posted December 11, 2012 08:51 PM |
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Quote:
If you used them in negotiations you'd have to say that you'd be pulling them back. That would mean making people move from their homes so I doubt that's ever going to happen.
It has happened several times before and is still happening from time to time, when Jewish settlers return to places the Israeli government forbids them to live.
@minion
How is that much worse than Palestine creating facts on the ground by going straight to the UN instead of negotiating?
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Seraphim
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posted December 11, 2012 09:24 PM |
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angelito
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posted December 12, 2012 10:40 AM |
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Quote:
...than Palestine creating facts on the ground by going straight to the UN instead of negotiating?
Because the past showed us, there is no way to negotiate with the government of Israel refering to palestine and its BETTER future?
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Geny
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posted December 12, 2012 04:46 PM |
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I can say that the past years showed us that there is no way to negotiate with Palestine without giving them something first and having nothing in return, only to have the talks break down somewhere along the road at which point you have to give them something else to sit them back down. In case you're wondering, that path leads us to Palestine having everything they want without making any concessions.
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shyranis
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posted December 13, 2012 03:20 AM |
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The saddest part is that the whole conflict is between the Jews who left or descendants of converted Jews from later generations vs the ones that stayed behind on the land and converted largely to Islam. A war of relatives. A real shame.
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Seraphim
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posted December 13, 2012 07:45 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
...than Palestine creating facts on the ground by going straight to the UN instead of negotiating?
Because the past showed us, there is no way to negotiate with the government of Israel refering to palestine and its BETTER future?
Meh. The thing about palestianians and islam in general is that you cant negotiate about anything.
They believe this "They are the choosen of god, who have the right to slay infidels and that god will give them eternal joy with virgins and jews are evil and must die and that sharia laws are perfect and that everybody must submit to islam and that everything in the quran is perfect and so on and so forth..."
You cant reason with them. You simply cant. That is why I find palestine vs israel threads as annoying.
There is only so much to discuss.
I would ask them one more time, "YOU WANT A STATE OR NOT?
If they say no...I would stop caring about them and I would declare war if they shot another rocket.
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Zenofex
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posted December 13, 2012 08:11 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 20:11, 13 Dec 2012.
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Quote:
They believe this "They are the choosen of god, who have the right to slay infidels and that god will give them eternal joy with virgins and jews are evil and must die and that sharia laws are perfect and that everybody must submit to islam and that everything in the quran is perfect and so on and so forth..."
Versus the people who consider themselves "God's nation"? Can't seem much of a difference.
Really now, the religious **** is deep on both sides of the barricade and if this topic has any chance of survival, it should drop it. It's been discussed 100k times already anyway.
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Seraphim
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posted December 13, 2012 09:19 PM |
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Quote:
Versus the people who consider themselves "God's nation"?
I thought israel was a Secular state?
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JoonasTo
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posted December 13, 2012 09:24 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Versus the people who consider themselves "God's nation"?
I thought israel was a Secular state?
Not anymore than the US is. 
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