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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted January 06, 2020 05:40 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
We must always strive for perfection and perfection = balance. 
Perhaps. But honestly, all this perfection and balance can be boring. 
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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RerryR
Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
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posted January 06, 2020 06:31 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
Ugh seems like HotA made the Logistics, Intelligence, Mysticism and Estates changes somewhere else, as my hex editing have no effect.
I can't change back Equestrian's Gloves or Boots of Speed either.
That sucks, I don't like these new values. 
HOTA COULD'NT YOU PLEASE MAKE STUFF LIKE THIS OPTIONAL?!
But wasn't this to be expected that every HotA update screws your modification? Well to be fair, it only happens once every two years 
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted January 06, 2020 07:37 PM |
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Well usually I can change things back, but not this time.
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted January 06, 2020 09:50 PM |
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Pollo2002 said:
Minor complain i dont get why logistics was nerfed to 20 instead of 15. it makes no sense.
Could you please elaborate on your "makes no sense" "point"?
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planetavril
Famous Hero
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posted January 06, 2020 09:55 PM |
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 why the new object Grave does nothing is just a graphic object?
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Jaynetics
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 06, 2020 09:57 PM |
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planetavril said:
why the new object Grave does nothing is just a graphic object?
You just need to unearth it - i.e. dig as you would for the grail.
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planetavril
Famous Hero
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posted January 06, 2020 10:09 PM |
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Hourglass
Famous Hero
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posted January 06, 2020 10:18 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
Ugh seems like HotA made the Logistics, Intelligence, Mysticism and Estates changes somewhere else, as my hex editing have no effect.
I can't change back Equestrian's Gloves or Boots of Speed either.
That sucks, I don't like these new values.
HOTA COULD'NT YOU PLEASE MAKE STUFF LIKE THIS OPTIONAL?!
Have you ever considered how much work it would take to make Hota to run smoothly, if everything was made optional? Within these 5 years of just english patches, the list of added and changed things have become insanely long. If everything on the list was made optional, someone would need to ensure that every build players would like to make would also be stable, and working as intended. Even in wog, not everything is compatible together, and things will become buggy.
Hota is not a big gaming company with hundreds of well-payed programmers making a game, but rather a bunch of around 20 people making this as a hobby for free.
We've not paid them anything, and they're not in any debt to us. So imo they can do whatever they're willing with their project. If they want to keep their focus in multiplayer balancing, and choosing to make things not optinonal, every1 should be fine with that. It's their project and they can spend their time with it like they please, we're not in a situation of asking anything more.
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avatar
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 06, 2020 10:24 PM |
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Edited by avatar at 22:25, 06 Jan 2020.
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Problem is not with HotA ideas and vision of further game development. Problem is to break our long years habbits. We're too lazy to change them and play 20 years old game 'from scratch'
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Hourglass
Famous Hero
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posted January 06, 2020 10:58 PM |
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avatar said:
Problem is not with HotA ideas and vision of further game development. Problem is to break our long years habbits. We're too lazy to change them and play 20 years old game 'from scratch'
It's extremely understandable, I've been trying to adapt to these changes as well. It's been weard to pick Mysticism and think it's a reasonable thing to do for example 
The way that I see it, is that there are some old content in the game that has never been really a part of it (like secondary skills such as Eagle eye and Learning, and spells like Land mine), and this has been the case because some other things in the game have been so overpowered, that no one has ever bothered playing with the bad stuff. I belive that if some things are changed, even the content that has not really seen play, will become a bigger part of the game, and overall we will have better product and richer gameplay. So that's why I'm personally up for changes. I don't belive in "perfect" balance, and I don't even know if it even can be achieved lol.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted January 06, 2020 11:38 PM |
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Hourglass said:
there are some old content in the game that has never been really a part of it (like secondary skills such as Eagle eye and Learning, and spells like Land mine)
For EE play A Wizard's Tail, for Land Mine play 300, Learning is really useless. About Hypnotize watch the trick seven of this amazing thread.
When one is gifted enough many seemingly useless things may find their value.
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Winston
Known Hero
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posted January 07, 2020 12:02 AM |
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phoenix4ever said:
Well usually I can change things back, but not this time.
That's the point. HotA is a multiplayer mod and they do not want you to be able to mod things to work how you want. It's all or nothing.
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted January 07, 2020 12:14 AM |
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bloodsucker said:
Hourglass said:
there are some old content in the game that has never been really a part of it (like secondary skills such as Eagle eye and Learning, and spells like Land mine)
For EE play A Wizard's Tail, for Land Mine play 300, Learning is really useless. About Hypnotize watch the trick seven of this amazing thread.
When one is gifted enough many seemingly useless things may find their value.
But that only rests his case. EE, Hypnotize and Learning are only useful in specifically designed situations or by exploiting AI shortcomings.
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted January 07, 2020 01:05 AM |
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phoenix4ever said:
Logistics specialists are not the only problem. (Besides I already balanced them myself.)
Suddenly Intelligence is only 1/2 as good and Estates is TWICE as good, what is the reason for these obscene changes?! 
I don't understand the weird progression of Logistics and Estates either, why is Expert twice as good as Advanced?!
I thought I could at least change things back to how I played in 1.5.4, but apparently that's not even possible.
To be honest I'm not even sure I want this update after all, but seems like a huge shame with Wasteland out and a new faction coming soon...
Well... do the maths yourself...
Intelligence is best at start of the game, Logistic is always a deal same goes for Diplomacy while Estates is now much more effective early game while not useless late game (or useless at all to waste a slot for it)... It's quite easy to see that the balance is made for a regular pvp game on a medium maybe even large map... but beside of this fact... the changes seem solid even for "casual gameplay". Maybe 10% difference on some sec skills... but not that much. At least we can say... it isn't done for players the play maps 7+ month!
phoenix4ever said:
Actually I was on vacation yeah, so I haven't had a chance to test it before today.
You write Intelligence is 25/35/50, actually it's 20/35/50. Perhaps the weird progression is actually what annoys me the most about Logistics and Estates, why does Expert have to be TWICE as good as Advanced, it's like there is a level missing between Advanced and Expert...
Gimme some linear progression, God dang it!
Well think for yourself... you get some of your expert sec skills late game... lvl13+ while you also may have the agony of choice between two good skills when you have all 8 secondaries. If it was for me the progression would be even more mathmatic (not a single even value), same as the calculations. while 20 is the base the other two upgrades are still same linear... why? coz 20 is a "good number" same as 50... If you limit your pool where you have two conditions... which is 50 max and even number divideable /10 leading to an integer while 10% is too low to be worth "basic" -> the base this is your result... I don't really see any problems with that. The rest is the difference min/max divided by 2... Maybe another answer... 1/2 is a good value for necromancy aswell as intelligence. Anyway imho it's the intelligence heroes that may cause problems since 5% is still much... even in low level, since 1-2 treasure chests are most likely +2 levels if you pick experience early game.
Anyway I'm looking forward for "Lord Haart" and do the maths for him. In the past he generated more money than "Leena" at lvl13+ I guess that changed now... same goes for the efficience for +350 gold heroes. Since "Basic Estates" is nearly as powerful as +350. On the other hand in combination with "Diplomacy"... "Estates" is quite useful on some more heroes, same goes for "Capitol". I can imagine "Castle" have some more advantages due to the changes. In addition to their "Stable" that generates movementpoints (see nerfed Logistics) they now also have the benefit for bigger chances for "Estates" aswell as "Diplomacy" (both Castle heroes have big chances for both and even combinated). So mobile troop generation in case of the Estates/Diplomacy combination on several heroes in addition to movementpoint generation due to stables is a clear buff to castle. Even if it was unintended...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 07, 2020 08:07 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 08:15, 07 Jan 2020.
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@phoenix4ever
Balance = perfection? Oh you are so wrong about that.
Logistics at 20% is a bit meh but 30% was too good, esp with artifacts. I'd prefer a softer nerf like 8/16/24%.
Intelligence change is bad. First off, basic should not be stronger than advanced and expert. Secondly, 25/50/75% would have been fine. It is only strong in campaigns or really large&rich maps. And the issue with campaigns is not even the skill's fault, you just get too many carryover knowledge.
Also why this insistence on making interference the default skill and sideline resistance.. I understand that the team dislikes resistance that much but how do people actually feel? I find resistance an essential part of heroes and if you're gonna rework it, you may as well keep it optional. Not the other way around.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted January 07, 2020 08:21 AM |
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Its no use to discuss balance from singleplayer point of view as AI is always easy to exploit and beat, you cant judge by that. This is not called balance. HotA is made from multiplayer point of view; whether people like it or not, theres nothing to be done about it.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 07, 2020 08:52 AM |
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Big nerfs only make the game less fun. Otherwise we revisit the original H7 logic where most early tier skills are balanced with each other because they all suck.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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ShadowMaster
Adventuring Hero
HOMM3fa(g)n
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posted January 07, 2020 10:51 AM |
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Hourglass said:
Adilmaru said:
Where have you seen that Centipede creature? I am really curious how its looks like. Also, from the screenshot of that upgraded Golden Robot I wouldn't be surprised if a robot is Level 7 creature after all.
You can look at un-upgraded Centipede's map sprite animation in this video. The un-upgraded robot is there also.
You can see a glimpse of the upgraded Centipede here. It can be seen around 3:04, when the hero goes to the portal.
The Coatl I was talking is in the teaser. Watch when the player views Todd's army. It's only an icon, I don't know if anyone has seen the actual map sprite somewhere.
And you may very well be right, that robot in gold could indeed be tier 7.
So, now we probably have a pretty accurate description of what the lineup of Factory would be like.
Tier 1 Halfling - Halfling Bombarder
Tier 2 Centipede digger (or something like it) - Centipede Burrower (I decided to put it here since despite me loving the idea of a gigantic Centipede it hardly fits anywhere else.)
Tier 3 Armadillo - Armored Armadillo (alternatively - if the tavern rumors are anything to go by - Rocky Armadillo - Volcanic Armadillo. Would also make sense with the gif animation of him looking like, well, a rock when rolled up).
Tier 4 - Flamethrower - Pyromancer
Tier 5 - Couatl - Winged Serpent
Tier 6 - Bounty Hunter - Gunslinger
Tier 7 - Iron Machine - Golden Machine (or something like that)
Some notes - if the MM7 Coautl is anything to go by he probably wouldn't be so high-ranking, seeing how they were extremely weak in-game. Could it be that the Centipedes and Coautls are switched (the centipedes being a tier 5 and the Coautls being a tier 2?)
That would also add the possibility of having the Coautls evolve thrice - from young Coautl to Coautl to Winged Serpents. It would also make sense with the Centipedes guarding a gold-mine, something usually not reserved for low-level units.
The final tier is definitely not named like that but this is the best I could come up with.
Furthermore, we still don't know what the volcano with an eye-rumor was referring to. I would assume Armadillo's but that would be a bit weird. Maybe new neutral unit?
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted January 07, 2020 11:14 AM |
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Revolut1oN said:
Its no use to discuss balance from singleplayer point of view as AI is always easy to exploit and beat, ... HotA is made from multiplayer point of view.
I think this is and isn't true. If you said, HotA is made from tournament point of view I would totally agree but the fact is more and more I find streams of MP papashkas playing G+U (where Diplomacy was already aloud), Anarchy, templates that spread tons of Refugee Camps in the starting areas and other divergences from that presumably wanted balance, when out of competition. Then this relatively new thing of paying to play this town or this hero rebalances things after the deed. So, one has to wonder if HotA developers aren't cornering themselves in to a niche where ultimately only the first league tournaments are the target.
But since I've read here that the online lobby has more then 200.000 members, with at least a 1000 matches running at any moment, I admit I lack perspective of what all those divergences from the norm really represent.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 07, 2020 11:32 AM |
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Not to mention..
Revolut1oN said:
Its no use to discuss balance from singleplayer point of view as AI is always easy to exploit and beat, ... HotA is made from multiplayer point of view.
With that logic, intelligence change would only make sense if all the tournament maps gave too much mana. Every, single, one.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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