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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted May 21, 2021 06:26 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 06:29, 21 May 2021.
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What you say doesn't make much sense.
If you just wait for the arrow towers any town can do it. But this is pretty senseless as it won't work with a lot of weekly growth. This isn't Fortress strenght it's just AI weakness.
If you want to use anti-AI tactic you are better off having Solmyr with just 1 fast unit, the AI will be baited to attack it and you wreck them with chain lightning... (also works inferno, meteor shower, armageddon)
Again, nothing to do with town.
Under the same umbrella changes to necromancy and conflux weren't necessary either...
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Never changing = never improving
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 21, 2021 07:38 AM |
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Ok hi! Wyvern is a water dragon. I don't bring a fact. So Wyverns must have a Fire from Protection or Fire Immune. What WoG/ERA you can make them. It enough well.
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 21, 2021 08:07 AM |
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LouWeed said:
Often you don't even need shooters, the AI troops will stand there, paralysed with fear of the moat, and get mowed down by the arrow towers. Works as far as I can tell on any difficulty level.
In my experience AI almost always have Ballistics and they will usually take down your gate in turn 1 or 2 if they are unlucky.
That pretty much means your 2 wide moat is useless and soon your arrow towers are also destroyed.
All this town defense does'nt really help Fortress win games, at best it will help them keep things status quo.
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Orrinisthebest
Known Hero
Invest in your future.
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posted May 21, 2021 09:00 AM |
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Speaking of data, i would be very surprised if ranked results of matches weren't recorded in online lobby. Even if not, it is not too late to start collecting such data.
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E1ChuRich
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 21, 2021 09:23 AM |
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I have a question that seems to be very controversial on this forum.
How come this team which had grandiose plans for this mod with atleast 3 towns in first 3 major patches + possibly more later on (as you can see in original thread: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=26298 ) has released only one town and a handfull of patches in more then a decade.
I have grown old waiting for new towns and features, I remember seeing annoucment for this mod on internet for the first time as a kid on my cousins PC while I didn't even have internet at the time and I couldn't wait to eventually play as cathedral and kronverk.. But alas, we get and update every few Years and we are yet to recieve a second town after more than a decade.
That said I have HUGE respect for the work the HotA team has done and I understand that they do it for FREE in their spare time but still.. It's sad that all those great ideas and plans went to drain. I wonder did they give up on most of it after they saw how much efford does it take ?
Ok you guys can start the white knight hate now 
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Hourglass
Famous Hero
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posted May 21, 2021 09:59 AM |
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@Nimostar
Sorry, I'm a bit confused: what are you after exactly? Do you think Fortress is the weakest town, and thus would require some help/buffs? Or do you think Fortress is somewhat uninspiring, not fun to play, and for those reasons would need changes? Or perhaps it's victim for both?
Just like Sal said, Fortress may not seem like the most powerful town when played casually. However, it has been proven by the multiplayer community that when everything is put on test and towns are being pushed to their absolute limits, Fortress ranks somewhere in the middle. If it gets access to for multiple Dragon Fly hives, it's likely even the top dog in the map: Monarchs, possibly lead by powerful Beastmasters, tier the map apart.
When it comes for the towns aesthetics, I kinda agree that the "town siege theme" was pushed a bit too hard - if the other "siege booster" would have been something more impactful, I think the town might have a bit more deepness in it. Overall, I kinda like the towns rough theme.
E1ChuRich said:
I have a question that seems to be very controversial on this forum.
How come this team which had grandiose plans for this mod with atleast 3 towns in first 3 major patches + possibly more later on (as you can see in original thread: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=26298 ) has released only one town and a handfull of patches in more then a decade.
Well, that's one way of putting it.
I'm not sure how common you're with modding in general, but usually you shouldn't expect mod to provide new content nor mod support after it's been released and the bugs have been somewhat ironed out. But here we are, after 10 years of Hota, still expecting something major of coming out within one year... it's pretty special.
Basically, the plans back then were too monumental to happen in practice.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted May 21, 2021 10:05 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 10:07, 21 May 2021.
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Quote:
Sorry, I'm a bit confused: what are you after exactly? Do you think Fortress is the weakest town, and thus would require some help/buffs? Or do you think Fortress is somewhat uninspiring, not fun to play, and for those reasons would need changes? Or perhaps it's victim for both?
Both, but some unique features would change both without being too taxing in the status quo of conservatives.
Quote:
Just like Sal said, Fortress may not seem like the most powerful town when played casually. However, it has been proven by the multiplayer community that when everything is put on test and towns are being pushed to their absolute limits, Fortress ranks somewhere in the middle. If it gets access to for multiple Dragon Fly hives, it's likely even the top dog in the map: Monarchs, possibly lead by powerful Beastmasters, tier the map apart.
As every single person says, and I have been tired to answer, even right in my last post, "lots of dragon fly hives" aren't really a balance answer. That is a map thing, not a town thing.
If it was for me creature banks would be disabled from random maps. Burn me, but it just doesn't make sense to snowball like that. It's the same thing why Diplomacy and Necromancy was uber nerfed: Get more creatures that lets you get more creatures that let you get more creatures and stronger and faster... you get the point.
Anyways, as I say, yet again, "fast wyvern isn't a town identity". And you can't even do it with harder difficulty. And wyverns/monarchs are the worst bank creature. By far. Indeed wyvern stack tends to be the first to die with normal growth, they are probably the worst t6 creature, along with Manticore.
But whatever, Hota probably doesn't even read this forum so we are just discussing for the sake of it.
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Also I question "it was too much"#. I welcome hota improvements but there have been 20+ new towns made by the community in that period, many with all their town screen, sprites heroes and creatures. If hota team wasn't such centralized bureaucracy they could have surely made 3 towns.
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Never changing = never improving
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 21, 2021 10:12 AM |
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Yeah and they still have'nt answered how Fortress is without any hives.
I also hate the creature bank meta, it is SO boring.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 21, 2021 10:46 AM |
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NimoStar said:
No doomforge, it is you that don't get it, "lol competitive online creature bank is all that matters"
I would wager not 5% of players are online competitive powerbank tryhard metagamers...
I know mate, but don't forget that all changes HOTA gets are based on those 5% powerbank tryhards  And such data doesn't support the "Fortress is weak" logic.
NimoStar said:
The point of people here was to make Fortress more unique, and fun to play and not at a disadvantage in vs AI, custom, and casual maps (which is in all likeness over 95% of H3 play).
Fortress is my favorite town to play vs. AI, so I'm not sure what are you getting at here. It has several advantages that a human will not fall for, but AI will:
- exploring AI heroes really get stuck in the swamps
- two-hex moat is the biggest AI killer in the game
- mighty gorgons have very low priority for the AI and will slaughter L7 units if left unchecked
- AI positioning sucks, the hydras can routinely attack 3 stacks per turn
- AI doesn't do well against three stacks of basilisks going after their powerstack, should they have any (AI won't be attracted to a single basilisk, but that single basilisk will have 20% chance of disabling the enemy powerstack).
That being said, designing the game around what casuals think is not HOTA team's principle, and will never happen. That's why intelligence got nerfed, by the way. It was because it was necessary to win on Jeebus Cross, lol.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 21, 2021 11:02 AM |
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Okay I'd like to know once and for all where it is stated HotA is aimed at competitive tryhards???
I think NimoStar was even generous with 5% being that, I think it's more like 1%.
But surely 1% takes priority over 99%... 
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 21, 2021 11:41 AM |
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phoenix4ever said:
Okay I'd like to know once and for all where it is stated HotA is aimed at competitive tryhards???
I think NimoStar was even generous with 5% being that, I think it's more like 1%.
But surely 1% takes priority over 99%...
The changes they made last patch was specifically aimed at Jeebus Cros metagame balance. What else do you need as proof?
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Hourglass
Famous Hero
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posted May 21, 2021 11:42 AM |
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NimoStar said:
As every single person says, and I have been tired to answer, even right in my last post, "lots of dragon fly hives" aren't really a balance answer. That is a map thing, not a town thing.
Perhaps I should have been more careful with my words:
What I meant to say was that WITH Dragon Fly Hives, Fortress can even be among the best towns.
And WITHOUT Dragon Fly Hives, Fortress is somewhere in the middle, and it's most certainly not the worst.
Fortress has it's disadvantages, but enough advantages to work properly. Beastmasters, fast start with Drakon, cheap town to build, dwellings not hard to be tackled during week 1...
NimoStar said:
20+ new towns made by the community in that period, many with all their town screen, sprites heroes and creatures.
Ahem. First of all, if many of those towns included the basic components, I can only imagine what the leftover towns had going on with them? And 20+, like really? I've been lurking on these forums since around 2013. If there would be town that would have matched Cove's quality, we would all be talking about it.
I've seen few people complaining about the quality of Cove, I think that's a pretty good indicator what the community in general accepts to be worth of being heavily played. Perhaps Factory would have been possible to be released in January if things went a bit different, but other than that, I think creating towns that people are enjoying to play with just takes time. Simple as that.
phoenix4ever said:
Okay I'd like to know once and for all where it is stated HotA is aimed at competitive tryhards???
I think NimoStar was even generous with 5% being that, I think it's more like 1%.
But surely 1% takes priority over 99%...
Maybe you shouldn't believe everything what Doom is saying. Hota is most certainly meant for wider audience. Why else spend time for Map maker, campaigns, videos, scenario maps or such?
When it comes for balance thou, I don't really see why changes should be done because of games against AI. Two human beings are needed in order to tell something about the game's balance. You can win with every town against AI, and AI will simply never match the effectiveness of the more experienced players. The games will not turn "fair", between the AI and player even if every town would be a copy of another and only pictures would change. AI is build to please the human player, it doesn't have feelings, and thus doesn't care if it loses.
Btw, multiplayer is far more popular than you might think. Around 2000+ people are playing during prime times at the lobby. Considering the game's age, Hota is most certainly not doing bad at Twitch either for example, and that's mostly MP, maybe sometimes you see a streamer playing a scenario map.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 21, 2021 12:02 PM |
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Doomforge said:
The changes they made last patch was specifically aimed at Jeebus Cros metagame balance. What else do you need as proof?
Well if they are doing balance ONLY because of JC, they are clearly missing the bigger picture.
@Hourglass I agree it makes more sense to make balance changes between human players than human VS AI, but everyhting is still not only about random maps and Jebus Cross.
And there are still situations were there will be no hives and you will not start in swamp as Fortress.
I think a wider scope is needed in terms of balance, than just JC.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 21, 2021 12:07 PM |
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It's not really "only" JC, but mostly JC, because JC is the most popular template.
Human vs. AI is kinda whatever, the AI isn't good enough to justify making changes to game mechanics in the first place, the mapmakers can ban specific spells or give AI ridiculously huge armies to compensate for its inability to play the game well.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Hourglass
Famous Hero
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posted May 21, 2021 12:59 PM |
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@Doomforge
I don't see the changes being made solely because of the popularity of JC, or other Jebus related maps. If a certain thing would be overpowered in certain template, I think it makes more sense of changing that template itself. When lamps were introduced, they weren't part of JC at first, but were later included because they made Tower perform better. So such changes to the templates are possible.
phoenix4ever said:
@Hourglass I agree it makes more sense to make balance changes between human players than human VS AI, but everyhting is still not only about random maps and Jebus Cross.
And there are still situations were there will be no hives and you will not start in swamp as Fortress.
I think a wider scope is needed in terms of balance, than just JC.
Well, I certainly agree. And I certainly don't see JC being the sole reason for any changes. JC isn't the only played template, and usually especially tournaments are played on with variety of different templates.
Btw, I thought you might be interested: Since you apparently like to consume a lot of Homm3 related content, go check this guy on Youtube. He makes daily videos, and most of the recent videos are played on trending template, Jebus Outcast. It's a 1-hero style of play with *drums playing* no creature banks on that template! The players hoard their armies from Pandora Boxes containing creatures from their starting faction, so when armies clash, you usually see a "pure" army against another "pure" army. (no creatures from other factions than your own) So, it's not just wyvern stack against angels or such. Just thought this might the MP content you might like to watch.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 21, 2021 01:21 PM |
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@Hourglass
Yeah I am familiar with Lexiav's videos. He is quite entertaining and seems like a pretty good multiplayer, I also watch AlexTheMagician.
I'm most interested in their tier lists, competitive multiplayer does'nt really interest me at all, but I might watch that video later, thanks.
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grell
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 21, 2021 04:06 PM |
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For people that play single player game. How exactly do you play?
Because in a single player in the end of the game you have a Score and for the best score you need finish the map in the less days possible. For doing this you need take risks, and this is where fortreess and stronghold shinies as they have high level creatures early on.
Whats the point to waste 1000 days when you can finish a map in 100?
Or play impossible and collect 10 of each rare resource on day 1.
If you want a challenge put you against a team with 7 AI and give AI the grail in main towns. AI will have more income and more army.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 21, 2021 04:39 PM |
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I don't think lesser days. When xl map, I got over 490! Map's name is Illusion world II. But Illusion world III is much harder. Try 490.Illusion world II & III
Ok yes 7 allied AI, but not the Grail. You give a creature bonuses to all town also gold and resources. Ok 1lvl 14-28 per a day to 7lvl 1-2 per a day plus 50k gold and 25 resources. If you don't give a gold. AI hasn't enough gold. Remember it.
If an easy, and you give a experience bonuses to 8 heroes.
So you are GM+
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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RerryR
Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
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posted May 21, 2021 08:27 PM |
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grell said:
For people that play single player game. How exactly do you play?
Without HotA and with my custom rules and mods that I enjoy most. I don't wait 3 years for a change in spells or a buff for learning, I do it myself in 5 minutes and see if the change suits me.
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 21, 2021 08:47 PM |
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RerryR said:
Without HotA and with my custom rules and mods that I enjoy most. I don't wait 3 years for a change in spells or a buff for learning, I do it myself in 5 minutes and see if the change suits me.
Same, but with HotA, HD Mod and my own maps.
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