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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features This Popular Thread is 489 pages long: 1 60 120 180 240 300 360 420 ... 478 479 480 481 482 ... 489 · «PREV / NEXT»
P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted May 20, 2021 03:33 PM

The_Green_Drag said:
These “balance” changes to fortress would just kill its uniqueness. It’s supposed to be a slow moving defensive town that is harder to play. You can hardly ever just sit back and not think about every move with them like you can when you play castle.

Fortress remains the most unique town in the series. This faction uniqueness died when ubi took over. H5-7 have factions that all feel similar with their boring line ups always relying on 2 or more shooters, unless it’s necropolis is. That is the rule for three games now aaand that rule is crap.


It isn't even harder to play thx to Wyvern first day. I'm arguing some points like the Def in sieges is near to useless. Compared to Inferno it still has a lot of push potential early game, whats obviously necessary, same as creature banks aswell.

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 20, 2021 03:38 PM

But Fortress get only 1 (defensive) shooter, not many spells, lowest attack ratings of all creatures in towns and they are slow. Death Stare and Poison also won't affect certain enemies.
Beastmasters are good, but Witches suck.
So quite a lot of disadvantages.

Castle on the other hand is extremely easy to play. They does'nt get many units from the Castle heroes and can take a little while to get going, but once they get Angels and Archangels, oh boy...
They also have Stables and Lighthouse.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted May 20, 2021 03:58 PM

Yeah, castle lighthouse is the pinnacle. Sure your mod has to take care of that
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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 20, 2021 04:02 PM

When it's actually allowed it helps yeah, especially on an island map, like mine.

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The_Green_Drag
The_Green_Drag


Supreme Hero
posted May 20, 2021 04:38 PM

Phoenix4ever said:
But Fortress get only 1 (defensive) shooter, not many spells, lowest attack ratings of all creatures in towns and they are slow. Death Stare and Poison also won't affect certain enemies.
Beastmasters are good, but Witches suck.
So quite a lot of disadvantages


Sure but for every one of those disadvantages they get unique advantages of their own. Highest defense rating for many tiers, highest speed unit that isn’t a tier 7 and access to that unit very early. Not to mention the dispel and weakness that dragon flies apply. Early wyverns obviously. Strongest tier 5 with arguably the strongest ability in the game. Hydras can be very powerful because of the multihead attack.

Adding spell casters to their kit Gives them too much power. The only balance changes I think fortress could use is 200/300 hp for the hyrdra/chaos hydra.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted May 20, 2021 06:38 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 18:40, 20 May 2021.

Meh, you guys don't get it. In the end, in current HOTA multiplayer and over the course of a typical multiplayer game, every side ends with the same angels/titans/cyclopes/wyverns, either aided by a powerstack from your town, or not (depends on the situation). Playing Fortress means more wyverns, and upgraded ones as well, which is excellent. Fortress has a top hero class (Beastmaster) and one of the best heroes in the game (Tazar) at their disposal. If you add those together you get a highly competitive town that is only let down by several issues:

- weak biom (swamp biom kinda sucks);
- gnoll powerstack kinda sucks;
- shooters are kinda eh;
- no T4 so you can't fish for townportal in your main town (by changing spells in your guild, of course, as per HOTA feature that enables it).

This makes it a B-tier town, competitive but flawed. There are worse towns out there. It's no Necropolis, but it's still a good town to play.

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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted May 20, 2021 07:16 PM

Remember many heroes, so Fortress has lesser.. Needs Necromancy, Diplomacy.. Now I think HotA must have 10 skills, and can be learning Necromancy. ..due to I play WoG. I can be wrong..:

Korbac 31lvl 37/44/31/28

Armorer, Pathfinding, Resistance, Water, Wisdom, Tactics, Earth, Offense and Necromancy, First Aid.

Map is 6LM10a, 3 vs 5.

But Pathfinding is useless now, when random gave Swamp, Grass and Winter.

So Korbac needs many heroes.



I always play to different.. No bad but strategy. Maybe 2004 I think the same what you feel bad, snow, etc..
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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted May 20, 2021 07:48 PM

If yes.. Necromancy value can be 1-3. And Dungeon, Inferno, Tower can learn.. Maybe Rampart too. No Castle, when Fire is already. Necropolis has always 10.
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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 20, 2021 08:21 PM

Why do you want other towns to learn Necromancy?, it will ruin their morale. (and movement.)

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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted May 20, 2021 08:28 PM

More powerful effect and HotA as 3,5. I mean H4. Ok it looks like beauty and freedom from the rule also Tower should be more alternative. No force to play Necromancy with.
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The_Green_Drag
The_Green_Drag


Supreme Hero
posted May 20, 2021 10:35 PM

Doomforge said:
Meh, you guys don't get it.



Lol Apparently I don’t get something. Didn’t realize y’all are talking about the “online multiplayer scene” of heroes 3 again, my bad.

Good luck on getting learning changed or whatever the bizarre crusade is all about

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted May 21, 2021 01:39 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 01:45, 21 May 2021.

No doomforge, it is you that don't get it, "lol competitive online creature bank is all that matters"

I would wager not 5% of players are online competitive powerbank tryhard metagamers...

The point "wyvern stack is all that matters" of course renders all balance superflous.

The point of people here was to make Fortress more unique, and fun to play and not at a disadvantage in vs AI, custom, and casual maps (which is in all likeness over 95% of H3 play).

You cannot deny that Fortress lacks even a single special effect building while other towns have like three at average, and even the grail just gives +def...

Dungeon:
- Academy that gives all heroes instant progression
- Mana vortex that doubles mana
- Portal of summoning that increases recruiting
- Artifact merchant
- Two shooters with no melee penalty + harpies
(+ level 5 guild)

Rampart:
- Luck fountain
- Resource fountain (which is meh)
- Treasury that can massively boost your economy
- Best shooter in game (but only 1)
+ Horde buildings for Dendroids, Dwarves and Centaurs +Grail that helps all heroes everywhere
(+ level 5 guild)

Tower:
- Lookout tower
- Library which is unbalanced specially with spell research
- Artifact merchant
- Three shooters including level 7 and no melee penalty.
+ Grail reveals map and extra spellpoints, +horde building for gargoyles +wall of knowledge
(+ level 5 guild)

Inferno:
- Castle gate which can be extremely powerful with more than one inferno
- Imps weeks in grail
- Low level but Area of Effect shooter.
+ Order of fire + Brimstone Stormclouds
+ Horde buildings for imps and hounds, which can be raised as demons
(+ level 5 guild)

Stronghold:
- Guild where you can uniquely sell creatures
- Escape tunnel that allows to escape from siege
- Annex that lets you buy all warmachines
- Two shooters one of them Lvl 6 that can split and break walls
+ Extra attack + Best offense hero
(Level 3 cap to mage guild)

Fortress:
- Hurr +2 atk and def while attacked in siege only
- While you basically can't shoot due to a single worst shooter in the game
* Most uncommon native terrain
+1 defense durr + Horde building for freaking bad lvl1, abilityless GNOLLS and nothing else
(Level 3 cap to mage guild, resource silo that can't even help you recruit hydras)

Really would it even "hurt your meta" that Fortress gets something special?
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted May 21, 2021 02:16 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 02:32, 21 May 2021.

Yes, in single player fortress is not the most fun to play, but if you  add what one would consider fun and make it stronger, that would have a serious impact on multiplayer, where fortress is already one of the best.

In multiplayer, almost all the things you consider as "advantages" for other towns have zero impact, for example Dungeon will never go for academy as is a waste of time - that 1000 experience will come from plenty of early battles around, mana vortex will be available only on second week as the priority are always dragons, portal of summoning is worth only if you flagged some exceptional dwelling and very early, otherwise you risk ending with crap in and by the time you have the funds for artifact merchant- dungeon is VERY expensive - the other player probably took several utopias.

On the other side, fortress has much bigger chances for very good heroes, has wiverns on day 2 so can take serious stuff around, has very fast flies which can block early shooters - a HUGE advantage -, has easier battles with hydras because AI is scripted to avoid attack all around feature, then mighty gorgons are the perfect level 7 killers.

Before the recent maps where you fight with cyclops and wiverns, people still played by ancient rules and generators, and the tournament Sav ran for 10 years had a data with Towns ratings. I searched for a more recent rating but couldn't find any, someone here can help?

Fortress was in good place, while dungeon and tower sucked big time, see win/loss ratio. In human vs human skirmishes, things don't always go as the book says.

I tried to find the site because that database included also the heroes ratings but it seems it was deleted.  But I still have the pic I already posted before so take a look. This is the compelled data from  several thousands of games online.


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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted May 21, 2021 03:21 AM

Old Pre-HOTA ratings don't count to a Hota discussion, for example there Conflux and Necropolis are invalidated, and Inferno wasn't buffed and cove didn't exist etc.

So that's three extra towns that you are not counting in the rating, in which Fortress is only 4 of 7 there. Not exactly op!

Also in HotA, Bron, IMO best starting hero (excluding maybe Tazar for obvious reason), was somewhat nerfed by making other heroes start with Level 4 creatures, so they made Fortress less special.

Which change I ask for would really change your multiplayer meta? I don't see any.

Giving Glyphs of Fear ability to cast Fear in one of three turns during defense (and make it more expensive) woudn't change multiplayer meta.

Adding an as of yet undetermined special effect building won't change multiplayer meta.

Giving a different ability to Carnivorous Plant grail (and maybe change defense bonus to +8/+8 to compensate) woudn't change multiplayer meta.

Giving Mage Guild 4 would barely change multiplayer meta since nobody uses witches and thus their might heroes won't get advanced wisdom very often.
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted May 21, 2021 03:22 AM

Old Pre-HOTA ratings don't count to a Hota discussion, for example there Conflux and Necropolis are invalidated, and Inferno wasn't buffed and cove didn't exist etc.

So that's three extra towns that you are not counting in the rating, in which Fortress is only 4 of 7 there. Not exactly op!

Also in HotA, Bron, IMO best starting hero (excluding maybe Tazar for obvious reason), was somewhat nerfed by making other heroes start with Level 4 creatures, so they made Fortress less special.

Plus only wyvern and angel creature banks existed back then while now there are many more banks. So Fortress had another small advantage, which also got destroyed.
______________

Which change I ask for would really change your multiplayer meta? I don't see any.

Giving Glyphs of Fear ability to cast Fear in one of three turns during defense (and make it more expensive) woudn't change multiplayer meta.

Adding an as of yet undetermined special effect building won't change multiplayer meta.

Giving a different ability to Carnivorous Plant grail (and maybe change defense bonus to +8/+8 to compensate) woudn't change multiplayer meta.

Giving Mage Guild 4 would barely change multiplayer meta since nobody uses witches and thus their might heroes won't get advanced wisdom very often.
____________
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted May 21, 2021 03:22 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 03:46, 21 May 2021.

Old Pre-HOTA ratings don't count to a Hota discussion, for example there Conflux and Necropolis are invalidated, and Inferno wasn't buffed and cove didn't exist etc.

So that's three extra towns that you are not counting in the rating, in which Fortress is only 4 of 7 there. Not exactly op!

Also in HotA, Bron, IMO best starting hero (excluding maybe Tazar for obvious reason), was somewhat nerfed by making other heroes start with Level 4 creatures, so they made Fortress less special.

Plus only wyvern and angel creature banks existed back then while now there are many more banks. So Fortress had another small advantage, which also got destroyed.
______________

Which change I ask for would really change your multiplayer meta? I don't see any.

Giving Glyphs of Fear ability to cast Fear in one of three turns during defense (and make it more expensive) woudn't change multiplayer meta.

Adding an as of yet undetermined special effect building won't change multiplayer meta (you said yourself many of these are often unused).

Giving a different ability to Carnivorous Plant grail ( maybe something like all your creatures everywhere +1 hp, change defense bonus to +8/+8 to compensate) woudn't change multiplayer meta.

Giving Mage Guild 4 would barely change multiplayer meta since nobody uses witches and thus their might heroes won't get advanced wisdom very often.

Even if some change was to imperceptibly buff Fortress, it's not like buffing the AT MOST (in actuality less) 4th of 7 towns at best is bad, if anything it's better for balance. Indeed, Cove and Necro are known to be better than Fortress in HotA multiplayer, so they would be at spot 6 of 9 not counting any other town that may have gotten above them.

And don't say "but wyverns!" (the only thing I see). Wyverns are the worst of the creature bank creatures and nobody can deny it. So it's more like but Angels! But Cyclops! But Phoenix! But Red Dragon! See? What is more important? Upgrading wyvern to monarch or Angel to Archangel? The answer is rather obvious...
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LouWeed
LouWeed

Tavern Dweller
posted May 21, 2021 04:47 AM

NimoStar said:
The point of people here was to make Fortress more unique, and fun to play and not at a disadvantage in vs AI, custom, and casual maps (which is in all likeness over 95% of H3 play).


It's actually one of the best towns against the AI
Fortress is far and away the easiest town to defend in a siege
Dumb AI doesn't know this though, because dumb AI is dumb, so you can easily trick it into a losing battle

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fred79
fred79


Undefeatable Hero
Absolutely NOT from Enroth
posted May 21, 2021 05:03 AM

shouldn't all this arguing be in the HotA ideas thread?

that said, i appreciate the argument, even if it's in the wrong place. helps me to know exactly what to change in my own game.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted May 21, 2021 05:14 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 05:25, 21 May 2021.

LouWeed said:
It's actually one of the best towns against the AI
Fortress is far and away the easiest town to defend in a siege
Dumb AI doesn't know this though, because dumb AI is dumb, so you can easily trick it into a losing battle


Wasting many turns to let AI into your territory and capture all your buildings when it may or may not even attack the town in the end isn't precisely what I would call a winning strategy... plus as stated you only have one bad archer still.

By the way, something else: If you play in higher difficulty than knight/horse (which most single players will "upgrade"), you get less/no resources, and thus can't buy "day 1 wyverns". Thus early wyverns can't be considered a guarantee, much less so a "town identity".

There are even memes :V


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LouWeed
LouWeed

Tavern Dweller
posted May 21, 2021 05:54 AM

Yes, but it means you don't have to worry so much about your town being attacked - you can send your main army off, happily raping & pillaging into the distance - and if the enemy happens to show up on your doorstep, no worries, you can defend against a much stronger army.

Often you don't even need shooters, the AI troops will stand there, paralysed with fear of the moat, and get mowed down by the arrow towers. Works as far as I can tell on any difficulty level.

And though I probably won't mind even if they do make some of the changes you suggest, I don't think they're necessary, and so should be uh, resisted.

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