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ericoz
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 19, 2014 10:03 PM |
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Fortress is ok, I think they already increased gnolls inicial stack value to make up for their weakness at beginning. Also being able to build Wyverns day 1 is awesome now that level 2 dwellings are always built in all towns.
Ballistics can be really useful in some maps and really useless in others. It really depends. It's a very situational (like scholar, scouting, pathfinding...) SS albeit not fully useless (like eagle eye, learning, first aid...)
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nik312
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 20, 2014 09:49 AM |
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Edited by nik312 at 10:20, 20 Oct 2014.
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@Salamandre:
Banning sieges? Srsly? Where did you play with such heavy-drugs-involved rules?))
It is just that staying in castle is an absolute waste of potential. Even if you are waaay behind it will be more efficient to search the map for some game changer, not to tremble in fear, waiting for the imminent death inside your own town. The only situation when siege will most definitely occur is when both players have full control, some secondary hero with adv. Earth and big mana pool and one of a players knows that he is behind. Then he will start and end each day on his main town, collecting the map with the use of control. But that situation is not so often to waste a whole skill slot (and catapult is not a big deal even in most of that sieges)
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 20, 2014 11:27 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 10:52, 28 Oct 2014.
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P4R4D0X0N said:
I only complain in that case about losses in the beginning, that other towns could counter with at least some offensive ability not that Fortress 24/7 staying somehow alive tactics.
Well, the point is that creatures from Fortress have a high defense compared to creatures from other towns. This means they may not be able to deal as much damage, but they take longer to die; this means that they deal more damage on retalition, simply because they suffer less casualties.
You can complain that Fortress lacks offensive power, but that's the whole point: Fortress is a defensive town. You can't force an offensive playstyle onto something that's inherently defensive in nature.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 20, 2014 11:43 AM |
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nik312
What I mean by banning is that "town sitting" is under honor agreements range, as you can read HERE.
While not strictly banned, its usage as common tactic is enough to make a player undesirable. If you do it, nobody will play you again, and that has similar effect as saying is banned. Hope now is clear and understandable without too much effort.
This is only exterior analysis, because as stated endless times, my personal stance is that any rule added (no fly, no necro, no red rush or whatever) does nothing good but removing structural parts of the game.
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Era II mods and utilities
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ericoz
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 20, 2014 03:15 PM |
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Instead of adding rules or banning stuff just make some balance, right? I think siege is fine but as nik said expert town portal in a big map can be really annoying, and usually the player that got some towns and has it first will win because of so much map control.
Dimension Door in random maps is just broken though. Some spells really need to be reworked.
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted October 20, 2014 03:37 PM |
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Maurice said:
You can complain that Fortress lacks offensive power, but that's the whole point: Fortress is a defensive town. You can't force an offensive playstyle onto something that's inherently defensive in nature.
Yeah, I know how it is supposed to be balanced, but lower offense shouldn't mean nearly without offense (in some cases I feel that way about Fortress). Even with Relailiate you'll lose some units that could be alive when your attack would kill some more enemies. Thats the flaw in HoMM3 mechanics somehow, I wont blame anyone from hota team on that.
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ericoz
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 20, 2014 03:56 PM |
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Edited by ericoz at 05:46, 21 Oct 2014.
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I think you're very wrong about fortress. All units have decent damage and stats and good habilities (level 3 dispels and weakens, level 4 petrifies, level 5 has the best unit hability in the game, level 6 poisons, and level 7 has the potential to deal more damage than any other level 7 plus no retaliation). The way I see Fortress in their battle strategy is a durable troop that can apply debuffs. The flying units are great shooter blockers and finishers and the heroes high defense make up for their fragility. The ground units are slow but once they get into close combat they can cause havoc (good luck when a basilisk petrifies your level 6/7 or a gorgon kills 1-3 stacks of your level 6/7 only with death stare).
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted October 20, 2014 08:30 PM |
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Maybe I should play it more often... at Impossible I got some problems at the start, lategame works well, we'll see.
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zmudziak22
Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
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posted October 25, 2014 01:01 PM |
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Will you implement original and chronicles campaigns in next version?
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nik312
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 26, 2014 12:13 PM |
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Edited by nik312 at 12:13, 26 Oct 2014.
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Salamandre said:
nik312
What I mean by banning is that "town sitting" is under honor agreements range, as you can read HERE.
While not strictly banned, its usage as common tactic is enough to make a player undesirable. If you do it, nobody will play you again, and that has similar effect as saying is banned. Hope now is clear and understandable without too much effort.
This is only exterior analysis, because as stated endless times, my personal stance is that any rule added (no fly, no necro, no red rush or whatever) does nothing good but removing structural parts of the game.
That topic seems WAAY outdated. Even WCL itself with its rules and ladder is pretty much outdated and that topic is old even for WCL. Townsitting does not need any kind of honor-ban. It's weak, unefficient tactics that will most likely bring a defeat to those using it. Such tactics don't survive in multiplayer by natural laws, not by any "agreements".
As for your personal attitude to any kind of rules - well, I've already explained it some time ago, but will try it again (speaking only about HW rules and considering all other rule sets completely outdated):
Why do mp players need rules? The goal of proper rules is to allow you using as much of game possibilites as possible whatever amount of words it takes to describe actual rule for that. And at the same time introduce some strategical depth to the game other than "pick that town/find that single art or object/win the coin toss on some random thing - win".
Surely, there are some simple ones - you can't play with Diplomacy or Cloak of Undead King as it ruins the whole strategical strength of the game. You take it - unless your opponent finds it as well - you win. No exceptions or tactics. Not much brain involved.
But some are more complicated. Yes, necromancers are impossibly strong in the original game and no town can be considered even close to their power, but what are the key elements of that strength? How we can fix those in an elegant way so that you can still play the town? Surely, rules can not change the game as HotA crew can, so they had to be more strict. They've eventually (over years) found 3 major imbalances with necromancers: Necromancy, Lord-vamps, Galthan. So... Imba of 3rd+ week, imba of 2nd week and very strong 1st week. Lord vamps had to be banned, nothing can be done about those without changing game mechanics - they still take any valuable bank solo with just 1 outer dwell or native town on week 2. Show me anyone else able to do that? Galthran was banned as a starting hero, but allowed for leveling if received in-game. That is as much as you can leave for that hero if you want necromancers to be statistically beatable. And for necromancy it seemed like OK just to ban Amplifier and Isra. And thanks to other restrictions it kinda works. Necros can be beaten. Hurray, other towns are back in the game.
The purpose of such rules (and the purpose of HotA balancing) is to lower down impossible imbalances (those Veni-Vedi-Vici'es) and increase overall game diversity as other towns, tactics, skills and strategies can adequately get into play. Not to make everyone equally strong or smth.
W/o rules you would have pretty boring games like: "OK, I've been incredibly effective in this game, so I have twice as many wywerns, angels, stats, magic... oh wait... He found Cloak of the Undead King? OK, game is over, thanks for meaningless 20 hours of gameplay". Or "All right, I've planned my rush good enough: that hit-and-run set up should weaken his army enough for my main hero to overtake him on 131... 30 wyws and 6 angels is quite good and should be enough... Oh, wait his secondary heroes bring him remaining pieces of his army, seems like he was playing with 2, no, wait, 3 equally-stong battle-fronts... Ok, so his total army is... 50 WYWERNS, 10 ANGELS and 1.2k SKELETONS?? SRSLY? !@CK NECROES, I QUIT!".
P.S Noone bans necro, DD, or TP on L+ maps for like 6-7 years already. Rules did evolve over time towards minimum restrictions
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 26, 2014 01:47 PM |
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nik312 said:
That topic seems WAAY outdated.
I don't even know what we argue about. 
Guy complains fortress is bad town because in siege battle isn't effective: I answer (simplified) siege is banned in MP so he does not have to worry about. You argue: niet! how can you say is banned, then you write walls of text just to confirm what I said: is avoided in multiplayer. Not effective tactic, for long time under honor agreement rules ban, a player who use it will most likely be avoided by others. I used the term "banned" to simplify the argument about, now you can call it thousand names, the outcome is still same and, most important, we don't disagree on it.
nik312 said:
As for your personal attitude to any kind of rules - well, I've already explained it some time ago, but will try it again (speaking only about HW rules and considering all other rule sets completely outdated)
You don't need to
I have my own opinions and played some 1000+ online games during Heroes III golden age. I always considered Heroes as a "game" where the fact that you can win due to a flaw or extreme luck is...part of the game and is fun. That some obscure russian tournaments consider Heroes as a sport and mainly a brain challenge, where every area has to be kinda mirrored, strong guards between players and other restrictive details, in order that most skilled player always wins, is only their business. I don't have to understand or follow the mass. I don't even try to convince anyone about the accuracy of my conception, is purely a subjective stance. As yours, as everyone's, as long as we speak about...a game: an amusement activity.
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Era II mods and utilities
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ericoz
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 26, 2014 09:22 PM |
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Edited by ericoz at 02:53, 27 Oct 2014.
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Thanks for reminding how much I hated diplomacy/necromancy on MP. I guess I was never alone at it. You guys tweaking/reworking Diplomacy too?
Regarding skill vs luck... Finding a Helm of Heavenly Enlightenment/Tome of Earth on a shipwreck survivor won me several games, it really didn't matter how better my opponent was. It was unfair. Same goes for Shackles of War, Orb of Inhibition and other broken artifacts.
After this I'm not complaining anymore about how artifacts/spells/SS need balance.
Sometimes it doesn't matter how well you do with army/resource management. The range of variation of chests/resources/artifact class/spell level/ect are completely unbalanced. And while you found that utter useless +5% magic resistance artifact having no resistance skill or that +15% archery bonus artifact with a town with only one shooter and no hero with archery skill either, to put a cherry on the top of the cake that your hero wants to learn fire/water magic while you have no decent spell in your magic guild, your opp found a Cape of velocity/Pendant of Courage/Shackles of War and also happens to have DD/TP/Expert logistics + bonus movement artifact/Mass slow/haste.
While you get to learn that useful level 4 earth spell Sorrow, your opponent might get Town Portal/Meteor Shower. I mean wtf why is Sorrow even level 4?!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 28, 2014 09:24 AM |
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Salamandre said:
I always considered Heroes as a "game" where the fact that you can win due to a flaw or extreme luck is...part of the game and is fun.
This.
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted October 28, 2014 02:25 PM |
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Yeah sorrow is quite useless with the new hota artifacts that lowers enemy moral without wasting any spellpoints. But i hope for a rework soon.
I also think, that tactics is quite OP too in some constellations.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 28, 2014 02:35 PM |
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People, H3 has an amazing editor. Countless creative fans made countless custom single maps. Single player is a very important part of the game, and for single player scenarios, sorrow, ballistic and many other things that "seem" to you useless become vital. Don't compare it to town portal because this is not the right way to value spells.
Also don't fall into extreme arguments. Finding relics from shipwrecks is extremely rare, you take a rare fact and prioritize it as game rule. Single players do not seek for perfect balanced game: they want AI to have immense armies and still prevail against. Epic battles are fun.
An optimal issue would be to have two versions, one for MP, one for single. But sterilizing the game because a few MP players complain about balance is not gonna satisfy everyone, that is sure.
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Siegfried
Famous Hero
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posted October 28, 2014 03:35 PM |
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Salamandre said:
But sterilizing the game because a few MP players complain about balance is not gonna satisfy everyone, that is sure.
Amen!
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted October 28, 2014 03:51 PM |
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As I said, as long as treasure and minor artifacts got the same ability it is indeed very useless imo. For Example: on the last random map I found on all heroes at least -25 Points enemy moral splitted on lots of artifacts (maybe lucky 'coz these damn seer huts spoil tons of artifacts). -3 is maximum, so what could a LvL4 Spell that only deal -2 on moral only accomplish? If it would add -2 Moral and -2 Luck its very different/OP. Thats my point, for small maps it may have its advantages, but thats all. Anyways, I'd like to see some new spells/exchanges in the future, afaik I read it somewhere around here it will happen soon.
Also Pirates with external dwellings are damn OP imo... same as vampire lords. Last map I got 3 or 4 external dwellings (shipwreck) with 3 towns.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 28, 2014 05:39 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 20:44, 28 Oct 2014.
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P4R4D0X0N You keep complaining about balance and yet you ask for troop stack experience. LOL.
P4R4D0X0N said:
but atm I miss the better balance for spells/abilities. Buff for Fire- and Water-Magic for example and unused/worse hero skills.
What. Early spells for Water magic are Bless, Dispel and Cure and with Wisdom you get to learn Prayer, the spell combining Haste, Shield and Bless at the same time. And what about Firewall, Blind, Curse, Slayer.. "worst hero skills".. LOL
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted October 28, 2014 09:25 PM |
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*rolleyes* Compared to Town Portal, Slow, Implosion, Meteor Shower, Resurrection or Haste, Fly, Dimension Door for full map domination it is indeed weak. I also talk about "Expert Magic" in combat. Sure Prayer is strong, Bless, Blind is usful too. I don't complain about that its just you neither need water or fire mastery, thats all. Also Fire was intended to deal most damage, but... it doesn't in an ammount I'm pleased with.
Troop Experience = simple Solution to buff bullsnow/useless units like Lizardman or even make the gameplay somem ore interesting, Dragon's Spell Immunity also could be earned through EP, also Leech ability for Vampire Lords.
Next time ask before u judge.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 28, 2014 09:45 PM |
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I am afraid troop experience requires a big change in game-play, and, as I said, game is 15 years old. It is a bless to have various features offered for a new game, but after so many years, most people playing Heroes got habits, reflexes and preferences. Or, troops experience forces you to play a different game, where you have to carry with your main the totality of your troops, because if they don't fight, they don't get experience.
Game will be slower, battles less creative, secondary heroes less important. New strategies will be required. I am not saying it is a bad thing, but IMO this is very unlikely to happen for a such old game (beside the fact that hota team clearly said they won't do it).
If single players want experience, they can play wog. And I didn't hear many MP good players asking for such change. Maretti even calls TE version (with scripts and experience) as the "easy version" and always avoided playing it.
As for comparing spells and magic schools, you make the same mistake as many before: you assume you will get every game dimension door, resurrect, town portal. You won't. MP games are the health bar of a game. If ranks are changing chaotically, it means the game has a problem. But all we see is that some players, once they are at top, they remain at top and for a long period. Which is only possible if you can adapt and make use intelligently of the resources you get.
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