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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted October 16, 2014 03:51 PM |
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True, a real pity.... But maybe some creatures get some buffs anyway (lizardman/warriors for example, maybe double shot/poison etc. the actual unit is just worse). I would also prefer a rework of all cunflux units in case of immunities/vulnurablities and spellcaster ability, its quite boring 'coz they're and all the same, also I miss the point of "Meteorshower" vulnurablity/immunity in detail, one spell amongst dozens and no gurantee to have an effective/inaffective counter Spell anyway, also Elementals are uneffected by moral/mindspells is quite powerful.
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 16, 2014 08:34 PM |
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P4R4D0X0N said:
True, a real pity.... But maybe some creatures get some buffs anyway (lizardman/warriors for example, maybe double shot/poison etc. the actual unit is just worse). I would also prefer a rework of all cunflux units in case of immunities/vulnurablities and spellcaster ability, its quite boring 'coz they're and all the same, also I miss the point of "Meteorshower" vulnurablity/immunity in detail, one spell amongst dozens and no gurantee to have an effective/inaffective counter Spell anyway, also Elementals are uneffected by moral/mindspells is quite powerful.
That's why I don't play HOTA. It's like wooden toys nailed to floor.
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whitebeard
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 16, 2014 09:11 PM |
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Macron1 said:
P4R4D0X0N said:
True, a real pity.... But maybe some creatures get some buffs anyway (lizardman/warriors for example, maybe double shot/poison etc. the actual unit is just worse). I would also prefer a rework of all cunflux units in case of immunities/vulnurablities and spellcaster ability, its quite boring 'coz they're and all the same, also I miss the point of "Meteorshower" vulnurablity/immunity in detail, one spell amongst dozens and no gurantee to have an effective/inaffective counter Spell anyway, also Elementals are uneffected by moral/mindspells is quite powerful.
That's why I don't play HOTA. It's like wooden toys nailed to floor.
Seriously...? I'm so thankful that Horn of the Abyss has stayed true to the Heroes 3 experience. Any radical changes to the gameplay would be really off putting in my opinion.
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My Heroes 3 Town: http://
heroescommunity.com/
viewthread.php3?TID=40183
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted October 16, 2014 09:15 PM |
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A combination with WoG would be nice... BUT wog is damn unstable and buggy in my opinion. I like the new hota stuff, but hate the lack of variety atm. We'll see how it'll evolve in 5+ years.
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted October 16, 2014 09:33 PM |
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whitebeard said:
Seriously...? I'm so thankful that Horn of the Abyss has stayed true to the Heroes 3 experience. Any radical changes to the gameplay would be really off putting in my opinion.
Sure, but the unit-balance for some towns is quite crappy (Fortress too much def, Inferno lack Lifepoints, Grailbuildings for some towns are OP compared to others), also lots of spells are quite inbalanced/crap same as heros speciality with spells vs hard boni/monster speciality. Also lots of mapobjects I would prefer from WoG "Market of Time" for example or the moving terrain/new objects with function.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 16, 2014 09:57 PM |
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P4R4D0X0N said:
BUT wog is damn unstable and buggy
Wog 3.58 maybe, but that was 3 years ago. A lot of improvements were added to stability since then, so this is no longer true.
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted October 16, 2014 10:35 PM |
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I haven't downloaded any recent versions yet, maybe I should do that, but that something for another topic. 
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hippox89
Famous Hero
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posted October 17, 2014 01:36 PM |
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Most of the competitive community (if not all of it) would never accept such radical changes as stack experience. It's purely a single-player feature that is totally unneeded in competitive multi-player. If you feel that SoD/HotA is not dynamic enough then you honestly haven't played a real game versus another person.
Macron1 is like that kid in junior school that likes to hurt a selected victim at every opportunity he gets because he has some deep personal issues himself. We all know how you feel about HotA, Macron1, even without these cheap pot-shots every so often. I don't know why I bother typing this, he wont listen, of course.
Personally, I really admire the crew's adherence to the classicality of HMM3 while still managing to expand on the old formula with new content and features.
Anyhow, I'm eagerly awaiting the upcoming patch, 1.3.4. Cant wait to play it.
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted October 17, 2014 03:38 PM |
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hippox89 said:
Most of the competitive community (if not all of it) would never accept such radical changes as stack experience. It's purely a single-player feature that is totally unneeded in competitive multi-player. If you feel that SoD/HotA is not dynamic enough then you honestly haven't played a real game versus another person.
...
Anyhow, I'm eagerly awaiting the upcoming patch, 1.3.4. Cant wait to play it.
Its just the lack of useful balance, or have you ever seen anyone win with Inferno or Fortress (equal players) in high rated PvP Games vs Dungeon, Castle, Necropolis or Stronghold? I haven't...
Some long overdue balance (since release of the games) should be provided anytime. Imo 3DO didn't do the best balance with HoMM3.
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nik312
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 17, 2014 04:44 PM |
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Edited by nik312 at 17:45, 17 Oct 2014.
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P4R4D0X0N said:
hippox89 said:
Most of the competitive community (if not all of it) would never accept such radical changes as stack experience. It's purely a single-player feature that is totally unneeded in competitive multi-player. If you feel that SoD/HotA is not dynamic enough then you honestly haven't played a real game versus another person.
...
Anyhow, I'm eagerly awaiting the upcoming patch, 1.3.4. Cant wait to play it.
Its just the lack of useful balance, or have you ever seen anyone win with Inferno or Fortress (equal players) in high rated PvP Games vs Dungeon, Castle, Necropolis or Stronghold? I haven't...
Some long overdue balance (since release of the games) should be provided anytime. Imo 3DO didn't do the best balance with HoMM3.
It is just because you haven't probably seen much high rated PvP games, I suppose
Fortress is one of near-top SoD castles. It is often being first-banned or first picked on certain templates. In HotA it is not weaker in any absolute numbers (though, ofc, has lost some points in relative ones).
Inferno in HotA is close to unstoppable imba (just IMO, as there haven't been big tournaments on HotA yet, but I've tested it a lot). While Necropolis in HotA is no more powerful than Castle or Fortress (mid-strength towns), not even mentioning Ramp, Dung, Flux, Inferno and Cove (TOP-strength towns).
And yeah, town balance has been reworked quite hard since 1.2
You can even say that 1.3.X series is from some PoV a series of town balancing (which will hopefully end with 1.3.4)
P.S. Thanks, hippox, as usually, for correctly expressing some of our own ideas)
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nik312
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 17, 2014 05:41 PM |
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P4R4D0X0N said:
A combination with WoG would be nice... BUT wog is damn unstable and buggy in my opinion. I like the new hota stuff, but hate the lack of variety atm. We'll see how it'll evolve in 5+ years.
It seems that you don't quite understand the main principles of the project. Those, that make HotA actually HotA and not just "a mod with a new town and a bunch of new fancy stuff" as some individuals tend to think.
WoG is more of a platform for modding, not really much of a game itself. The 3.58 version, that people usually call WoG is only a bunch of user scripts and RPG maps which were for some reason united in one build. The "variety" is the obvious quality of any platform or instument. Anyone can build his own game with it. And that is great for modding.
But our goal is completely different. We are building a whole integral game, trying to create a continuation for original series. We decide HotA's gameplay, its balance, graphics, music, every tiny detail of everything. And we decided it all to be as close to original game as possible. So that any man, not knowing a lot about HotA before, could not really tell if it is an official expansion or a fan-made one. So, of course there won't be any instruments to change the game's core. Just usual ways of customization - map editor and RMG template creating.
So, we don't need WoG as a platform (direct reverse-engineering is anyway deeper way than any platform can provide), we don't need most of its features - like creature expirience, commanders, army taxes e.t.c. (as it looks completely foreign to the original game). So, why would there be any "combination"?
As for unit balance - from our PoV there is no such thing. There is only town balance which is most distinct on random maps. Skills and spells balance probably does exist, but it will be improved a bit later.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 17, 2014 06:02 PM |
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The thing is that your expansion, guys, comes...14 years after the last official one. So is normal that people got bored with regular mechanics and want to spice this or that. It is also understandable that you want to keep it as close as possible to vanilla mechanics but Heroes III is old story already.
Each one's arguments are valid, IMO.
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Era II mods and utilities
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whitebeard
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 17, 2014 06:30 PM |
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Salamandre said:
The thing is that your expansion, guys, comes...14 years after the last official one. So is normal that people got bored with regular mechanics and want to spice this or that. It is also understandable that you want to keep it as close as possible to vanilla mechanics but Heroes III is old story already.
Each one's arguments are valid, IMO.
Old yes, but im still playing this game over a decade after its original release. It's the best in the entire series and doesn't need any major gameplay changes. With WOG you may as well be playing something completely different by this point. I see the Horn of the Abyss as reviving this beloved gem, its a second chance for people to experience Heroes of Might and Magic again in its purest form.
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My Heroes 3 Town: http://
heroescommunity.com/
viewthread.php3?TID=40183
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted October 18, 2014 01:36 AM |
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Don't misunderstand me Nik, I don't want to combine both as you describe it... The only thing I want for HotA atm is some more map objects to bring in more variety, also some special stuff like the Mansion, Graveyard, Phoenix-Tower e.g. some easy and little features/caves/special spots and some balance:
-earth > air > water > fire Magic is an example for bad balance in between elemental schools, but u said there will be some balance, I'm looking forward , maybe you add another strong Level5 Water Spell (it has only 1 in levl 5) also fire got 1 spell less (18 instead of 19 in total) maybe another lvl1 or 2 Spell.
-underused abilities (spells as hero special aren't that common picks, I'd like some more special abilities like armorer mastery, offense, archery, logistic... in one word -> the good ones)
-spellscrolls on map (lvl1-3 spellscroll are pointless imo and absolete in week4 at maximum. Could be banned from begin for some resources or treasure artifacts)
-Reskilling unwanted abilities: I like the feature of reskilling from "Market of Time" in WoG, best example is Kyrre or any other Elf-Ranger (4 in total) with that Archery skill, its a waste for only 1 ranged unit from that town (maybe useful for Ivor but not the rest), also resistence isn't my favorite for all dwarfs except Thorgrim, same with other towns, castle got lucky with leadership always on all knights, same as stronghold with always offense also armorer for beastmaster works out well, but as u see I'd like to reskill that "flawed" Skills you start with. Maybe its not intended to implement but I would like to see it ingame. Also bad rolls from levelup may not hit the progression that much anymore. Same as witchhuts you dont know what you get there, why would a hero stay with a witch and learn about something he don't want to know? Always investigate with a supply hero isn't that much comfort, could be changed to option if you want to learn that skill.
-Artifacts: I personally like the "Barbarian Lord's Axe Oo Ferocity" from WoG as addition, check balance of it for yourself, also the crown of magi dont fit that much into the set (magi = tower), maybe another helmet. Also a Set Bonus for the new Cove Set would be interesting for combination.
True I havent seen any Fortress games in yt. Got a link for me?
Infernos strenght is the Portal imo, but without 2+ Towns that tactic wont work, anyways in the original the HP was quite low for the units, havent crosschecked with HotA Change on that town.
I also agree with whitebeard, HoMM3 is the best of the series... but lacks balance like 4+, in case of Retailing simultanous not by turn for example. Anyways WoG also is a lot fun, the map generator for example with the strong variety did some nice maps in the past. The original and hota maps all look the same. I also prefer complex games with lots of options, but I belive hota will be similar one day.
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ericoz
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 19, 2014 05:06 AM |
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I'll have to agree with Salamandre on that. I'm not making a destructive critic here is just that the expansion feels like a fan-made expansion of 15 years ago. Yeah it remains true to the spirit of the game but yet it remains true to the lack of balance, useless secondary skills, overpowered spells and artifacts. The expansion has little additions,(one town, cannon, a dozen maps and some scenery and creature banks) and all the fixes on bugs/balance could have been done in a little patch. The major problems of an outdated game engine keep making the gameplay linear. I'm not sure since when you guys are working on it, so I'm not telling you could do more.
I just don't know if the mindset of making the changes to this game as if we were back when it was released is going to be actually positive.
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vylk
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 19, 2014 10:08 AM |
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That's the thing, the majority of us are quite positive to this being a true expansion. + So far the balancing tweaks have done wonders for the game IMHO.
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revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted October 19, 2014 02:41 PM |
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I wonder why do noobs complain about Fortress being bad when it's clearly one of the top towns.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 19, 2014 07:51 PM |
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ericoz said:
I'll have to agree with Salamandre on that. I'm not making a destructive critic here is just that the expansion feels like a fan-made expansion of 15 years ago.
Well, that's the aim of the project after all, lol xD
ericoz said:
Yeah it remains true to the spirit of the game but yet it remains true to the lack of balance, useless secondary skills, overpowered spells and artifacts.
Well, they said that they'll look forward to more balance changes in the future, with SS already mentioned.
ericoz said:
The expansion has little additions,(one town, cannon, a dozen maps and some scenery and creature banks)
One high quality town a little addition? Please, let's remain serious, shall we?
ericoz said:
and all the fixes on bugs/balance could have been done in a little patch.
I'm sure if bugfixes were easy and fast to correct they'd have included them earlier.
ericoz said:
The major problems of an outdated game engine keep making the gameplay linear. I'm not sure since when you guys are working on it, so I'm not telling you could do more.
I think you should move your eyes to Heroes VII then. As it's stated on the OP, this MOD aims to continue H3 legacy and expand it, not build something similar with big changes.
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted October 19, 2014 08:31 PM |
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revolut1oN said:
I wonder why do noobs complain about Fortress being bad when it's clearly one of the top towns.
I only complain in that case about losses in the beginning, that other towns could counter with at least some offensive ability not that Fortress 24/7 staying somehow alive tactics. Offensive has also defensive aspects when enemy stack gets down some numbers, while defensive only has no other aspect than beeing defensive. Thats my point, I'm not complaining about the ability of Fortress to stay in game and tank it's way through somehow to bleed out enemy over time, it's the lack of options and passivity to declare it somehow "weak", maybe a fast wyvern rush is the only real offensive thing Fortress may do at the start but thats all in siege offense the 2 flying units are quite fragile and the archers arn't really a great help.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 19, 2014 08:43 PM |
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Well, people complain about ballistic being useless, then the same complain about siege difficulties (not you specially but I hear some).
I think that, no matter the race, if you're going to play with siege allowed (today MP games ban "stay town" attitude), ballistic should be a priority.
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Era II mods and utilities
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