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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 06, 2014 10:21 PM |
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Are the conditions really right for a referendum right now?:/
Maybe Russia could get out and Crimea elect a legitimate non-interim local government first.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted March 06, 2014 10:24 PM |
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It's illegal vote though. For what that matters anyway.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 06, 2014 10:28 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 22:30, 06 Mar 2014.
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A referendum?
It depends. The Montevideo convention states that states (heh) don't need to be recognized internationally, only fulfill four criteria:
1. Have a permanent population.
2. Have a defined territory.
3. Have a government.
4. Have capacity to enter relations with other states (Russia)
Of course few have recognizsed the Montevideo convention for obvious reasons. But personally, I think independence referndums should be conducted if there is a large amount popular support for it (and there is stability, which there isn't). I rarely agree with nationalist movements but the rights of individuals and people exceed the rights of states such as Ukraine.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted March 06, 2014 10:31 PM |
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No, ukrainian laws(constitution I think) demand that the separation referendum be nation wide.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted March 06, 2014 10:36 PM |
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JoonasTo said:
It's illegal vote though. For what that matters anyway.
what was illegal is the bandit leaders taking over the goverment. the bandits in general requested early elections. there were agreements made and supposedly there should been early elections, but the opposition didn't gave a damn snow about it.
Soon Ukraine will realise that they have nothing else to elect but oligarch puppets. then it'll be the same snow all snowing over again.
And Crimea has some rights as an autonomous state. the referendum is held for people to vote in more autonomous rights to it.
I think this'll be a reverse Kosovo scenario. the first the world will be against it, but later they'll support it. Unlike Kosovo, which was supported early on then given the finger.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 06, 2014 10:40 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 22:43, 06 Mar 2014.
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Kip is actually right, very few things have gone the legal way in this crisis so I don't think we should expect much from that. In the end, it will not be up to the Ukrainian central government if Crimea secedes or not. Normally, I wouldn't count on that happening but now that they are pushing for a referendum while everything is still so volatile, anything could happen:/
I guess the one potential benefit for an indepedent Crimea is that it would loosen the oppositon towards further Western integration in the rest of Ukraine. I don't think Putin would work hard to prevent seeing as in that situation, he has already gotten Crimea and made his point against the West ("These lands are belong to the Russian sphere of influence, get out")
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted March 06, 2014 11:01 PM |
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Yeah, Krim is Russia's main aim.
The government also disbanded the Crimean government, for what that counts.
Oh and Kip, the current interim Government isn't a bandit government. It's got a bunch of the same people who were there during the Janukovitsh government. There are some questionable people there but that's it, some. No bandits leading it, or having a major say.
Why the people ousted Janukovitsh was that he went back on the cooperation deal with the EU that was supposed to be signed last november.
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kipshasz
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Elvin's Darkside
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posted March 06, 2014 11:05 PM |
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I personally think that the remainder of the parliament was simply held at gunpoint by the opposition thugs. or bought. they're basically cowards and turncloaks.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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JoonasTo
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Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted March 06, 2014 11:06 PM |
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Probably bought, it's Ukraine afterall. Klitschko brothers might be the only two to ever make their money honestly in that country...
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 06, 2014 11:10 PM |
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A-and the EU has announced that it is ready to sign the association agreement with Ukraine before the planned elections in May. Now everybody's in a hurry. Putin's turn.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 06, 2014 11:30 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 23:32, 06 Mar 2014.
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JoonasTo said:
Probably bought, it's Ukraine afterall. Klitschko brothers might be the only two to ever make their money honestly in that country...
Here's a really good article on the scope of Yanukovych's corruption and the authoritarianism that led to his ultimate fall.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 07, 2014 03:23 AM |
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JoonasTo said:
It's got a bunch of the same people who were there during the Janukovitsh government. There are some questionable people there but that's it, some. No bandits leading it, or having a major say.
It only means that those are the same bandits. Yanukovitch was no good, but forcing him to leave (with the presidential elections not so far from that) and making all this mess provoking those 'sofa wars' as we Russians call it is a worse thing.
Russia is now positioned by the Western mass media as a conqueror. Goodbye my visit to relatives in England.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 07, 2014 03:29 AM |
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and how is USA positioned?
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 07, 2014 03:37 AM |
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As the most caring about Ukraine people's rights and territorial unity, of course. It's funny how the US and EU care about the country which name they apparently could not spell properly several months ago.
The situation has become a pure politics from both sides. The US doesn't want Russia to grow in power. Russia aims to get its old territories. No one cares for people anymore. It's a real shame.
The only excuse for Russia is that Krim really has the majority of Russian and pro-Russian population. It's historically our territory. The US is already famous for their winged democracy they bring to Iraq and Syria, and I'm afraid Russia is no more a difference in everyone's eyes.
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Fauch
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 07, 2014 03:52 AM |
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I heard that Crimea is a strategical territory of vital importance for russia. it seems more like russia is engaged in a defensive war rather than being a conqueror.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 07, 2014 04:13 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 04:23, 07 Mar 2014.
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I don't think Krim is vital to Russia, only Sevastopol city is really notable. Another passage to the Black Sea is of course strategically beneficial. And currently there is a big question whose decisions are 'legitimate' more - the decisions of the usurpers who threw up the president of the Ukrainians without a lawful election or the decisions of Putin who draws forces into another country while it is not in its best shape. Or the decisions of the EU and US leaders who freeze the offshores of Russian oligarchs (It would seem, how it could be related with Ukrainian people's rights?)
Well, Russia had already had those forces there, lol. Its navy base is stationed there until something around 2047 if I recall correctly.
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted March 07, 2014 04:19 AM |
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Before every democracy, every wise ruler and every vote was a bunch of soldiers invading, killing men and raping women.
The law has the incredible ability to be able to draw a line and pretend nothing happened before.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted March 07, 2014 08:20 AM |
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Russia has bases and 16,000 soldiers stationed at Krim according to the lease agreement that is renewable every twenty years. The next being 2027 I think.
Krim is strategically really important in the control of the black sea. Especially for Russia, now that the Bulgaria, Romania, Turkey, Georgia are all US controlled shores.
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Zenofex
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posted March 07, 2014 08:39 AM |
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Fauch said:
I heard that Crimea is a strategical territory of vital importance for russia. it seems more like russia is engaged in a defensive war rather than being a conqueror.
Aye, that's exactly what it's doing. Only people who are totally ignorant of the changes in the former Eastern bloc and USSR during the last 20 years can claim that Russia is expanding. On the contrary, it's trying to save its last "off-shore" positions. From a strategic perspective NATO has been gradually creating a military screw-press around the Russian borders and has managed to nearly surround it. The EU is just a pretext. Moscow doesn't give a rat's arse if the former USSR republics will be in the EU or not if they keep their economic relations with the former Big Brother and don't allow NATO bases to be built on their territories. EU membership however always means NATO membership at some point. This was the situation in Bulgaria as well. To this day, nobody can give an even remotely sensible explanation what is the country's benefit from being a NATO member and the vast majority of the population is certainly not overexcited from being part of the alliance but the facts still stand.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 07, 2014 09:21 AM |
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Does anyone know the crimean royalty's stance on the situation?
kipshasz said:
I personally think that the remainder of the parliament was simply held at gunpoint by the opposition thugs. or bought. they're basically cowards and turncloaks.
You are the one who just want people to bend over and take it from behind from authority. You are in no position to call people who risk their lives for change "cowards".
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