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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 14, 2014 02:54 PM |
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Hey Ohforf! I am fine.
You're still here on HC entertaining people 
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted March 14, 2014 03:01 PM |
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@Ihor:
Shake them billions out of tymoshenko's pocket, her politics screwed you over with the gas prices. oh right, the snow hides under the skirt of Frau Merkel. tough luck I guess. so know to cover it, yanetsiuk & co will shake down the citizens of Ukraine. say good bye to your pensions everybody!
A few decent ministers is nice, but they may not change anything at all. most of your politicians are still deep in someones pocket. in who's? doesn't matter.
Actually, there may be more "democracy" in Ukraine than in here, and we're having ths shining bridge to the bright tommorow built by the EU. bullsnow. epic bullsnow it's what it is. our own basterds who highly supported the uprising are now snowting themselves when they hear the word "referendum". and peaceful, actual peaceful protests mind you, regarding the question of land sales to foreigners, are busted by cops instantly. so yea
Also, no offence but this Tuesday when Lithuania celebrated it's Independance Restoration Day when some snows shouted and agitated for Ukraine I felt like I've been spat in the face by a camel. seriously. even more when they started to play an Ukrainian folk song. There's a time and place for it. not during a national holiday.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 14, 2014 03:13 PM |
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ihor said:
BTW it was officially announced about creation of new structure like anti-corruption bureau and lustration committee. If this works fine, then we will have more options to control the government.
i wouldn't hold your breath on this. anywhere that has at least a modicum of power, there's bound to corruption. and the heavier the cash flow, the more you will find the professionally corrupt. you better believe that the corrupt are already placing their people in that very bureau, if they think it is at all possible that such a bureau will even come to pass.
regardless, best of luck to you, man. it's nice to finally hear from the horse's mouth on this issue. 
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 14, 2014 03:15 PM |
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Yeah, actually Tymoshenko's rating is quiet now and our minimum task is to avoid her presidency. Unfortunately as there are a lot shouting for Yanukovich on the East, there are still a lot similar on the West of Ukraine shouting for Tymoshenko. You are right, those are almost equal. But it is impossible to just take her money, not in current situation. Only time can help.
Quote:
Also, no offence but this Tuesday when Lithuania celebrated it's Independance Restoration Day when some snows shouted and agitated for Ukraine I felt like I've been spat in the face by a camel. seriously. even more when they started to play an Ukrainian folk song. There's a time and place for it. not during a national holiday.
I understand you very well, as you might also understand me when crowd of people on my land, in Crimea, or Donetsk, or Kharkiv shouting "Russia! Russia!" and burning Ukrainian flags.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 14, 2014 03:16 PM |
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Quote:
1) Protesters on the street of Kyiv in February are not bandits, everybody has right to defend their rights.
yeah, but do they all fight for the same reason? it seems the protestors who sparked the movement were trained by american organizations, for americans interests. of course many of the protestors probably thought they were fighting for the right of ukrainians.
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3) All Russian statements about reasons of their actions in Ukraine are based on lies: there was no oppression of Russians in Ukraine, no burning of Russian churches, no threats to Russian military bases, no threats to Russian language.
no threat to russian military bases? Ukraine is supposed to become part of the EU, that is to say, part of NATO as well, and it is no threat?
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If they don't help Ukraine, what should they say to Iran or North Korea about their nuclear programs.
I thought iranian nuclear program was about building nuclear power plant, not weapons? and I thought the problem with Iran is that they want to trade their petrol for gold only.
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Did I heard right that Ukraine wants a huge loan from that international fund crap? and in exchange for that cash they have to do things like increase the age of retirement, privatise all the mines etc. what's up with that?
I read that the new government has plans to make life tougher for the average ukrainians.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 14, 2014 03:20 PM |
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Fauch said:
I thought iranian nuclear program was about building nuclear power plant, not weapons?
LOL.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 14, 2014 03:22 PM |
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well, they would probably be right to make nuclear weapons as well
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 14, 2014 03:24 PM |
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Edited by ihor at 15:26, 14 Mar 2014.
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@fred79
Yeah, I understand what you are talking about, but you might be not aware of sizes of corruption here in Ukraine. Trust level to police and courts is about 10%. Everything in education and medicine is built over corruption. It is nearly impossible to live a life here and not give bribe at least once.
Anti-corruption bureau still has some trust level because the we trust the new head of this organization. The problem is this is simply not working as of now. We require new laws to be passed for the bureau to work properly.
@fauch
The situation is a bit different that you think. I will update this post and answer your questions later. Have to go now.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted March 14, 2014 03:25 PM |
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Edited by kipshasz at 15:27, 14 Mar 2014.
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Didn't Iran wanted to wipe Israel off the map?
well, it'll be doing the world a favor I guess.
ihor said:
@fred79
It is nearly impossible to live a life here and not give bribe at least once.
____________
"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted March 14, 2014 03:54 PM |
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ihor said:
You're still here on HC [...]
Who rattled on me?!? 
Seriously though, nice with some Ukrainian input, and I'm sorry for what's going on in your country.
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Living time backwards
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 14, 2014 04:24 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 16:25, 14 Mar 2014.
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kipshasz said:
Didn't Iran wanted to wipe Israel off the map?
well, it'll be doing the world a favor I guess.
I heard something like that, there were many interpretations. some thought they were talking about nuclear bombing israel, some other thought they were talking about something less radical. anyway, anything you say against israel politics is always blown out of proportion. someone says he doesn't like israel government, and they hear Hitler talking about killing all jews.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 14, 2014 04:38 PM |
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ihor said:
Yeah, I understand what you are talking about, but you might be not aware of sizes of corruption here in Ukraine. Trust level to police and courts is about 10%. Everything in education and medicine is built over corruption. It is nearly impossible to live a life here and not give bribe at least once.
damn that sucks. the only bribes i've ever seen personally were outside the u.s.; the polizei in germany taking money for dumbasses not wearing seatbelts. i've never seen bribes exchange hands personally in the u.s., but i'm sure it goes on here, as well. mostly, the bribes here are in government.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 14, 2014 10:11 PM |
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@Fauch
Quote:
yeah, but do they all fight for the same reason? it seems the protestors who sparked the movement were trained by american organizations, for americans interests. of course many of the protestors probably thought they were fighting for the right of ukrainians.
That is not true. I personally was in Kyiv several days on the barricades and took part in protests during a peaceful phase. And I saw how that was organized. No american organizations, simply guys who were fed up with what government did and they wanted to be heared, not ignored. Instead, on January 16th government passed so called "dictatorship laws" which were just ridiculous - wearing helmets during mass actions forbidden, motorcades of more than 5 cars only after approval of traffic police, etc. See more here. After that active phase started with thousands of men using Molotov cocktails and eventually gunshot. In addition to this, tens of thousands, including myself, spent their own money, for buying helmets and bulletproof vests for the guys there. They were not trained by US and more than 100 hundred died, those were from all over Ukraine, from east and west, even guys from Georgia and Belarus.
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no threat to russian military bases? Ukraine is supposed to become part of the EU, that is to say, part of NATO as well, and it is no threat?
First, EU does not necessary mean NATO. Second, even integration to EU doesn't break existing treaties for russian military base. They can still be there for the time mentioned in the agreement. Original rent agreement was set in 1997 for 20 years, but it was prolonged during pro-russian Yanukovich for 30 more years for the discount on gas price, but actually Russia lied and this agreement should be canceled, in my opinion.
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I thought iranian nuclear program was about building nuclear power plant, not weapons? and I thought the problem with Iran is that they want to trade their petrol for gold only.
Fred said enough.
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I read that the new government has plans to make life tougher for the average ukrainians.
I am not sure if that is correct, in my opinion it should be started from rich people, but yeah, oligarchs have very good lobby in parliament. Anyway the objective is not to make the life tougher for ukrainians but to fix mistakes previous government made in short-term, and gain good lift in mid and long-term.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 15, 2014 12:04 AM |
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ihor said:
That is not true. I personally was in Kyiv several days on the barricades and took part in protests during a peaceful phase. And I saw how that was organized. No american organizations, simply guys who were fed up with what government did and they wanted to be heared, not ignored. Instead, on January 16th government passed so called "dictatorship laws" which were just ridiculous - wearing helmets during mass actions forbidden, motorcades of more than 5 cars only after approval of traffic police, etc. See more here. After that active phase started with thousands of men using Molotov cocktails and eventually gunshot. In addition to this, tens of thousands, including myself, spent their own money, for buying helmets and bulletproof vests for the guys there. They were not trained by US and more than 100 hundred died, those were from all over Ukraine, from east and west, even guys from Georgia and Belarus.
I didn't mean there were guys from american organizations demonstrating in the streets. and I didn't mean it was organized in just a few days. those organizations have probably been there for years (even before the orange revolution) acting in the shadows. I don't doubt ukrainians had real reasons to protest, but revolutions and mass movement rarely happen spontaneously, there is generally a powerful hand guiding the mass, or nothing would happen at all.
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First, EU does not necessary mean NATO. Second, even integration to EU doesn't break existing treaties for russian military base. They can still be there for the time mentioned in the agreement. Original rent agreement was set in 1997 for 20 years, but it was prolonged during pro-russian Yanukovich for 30 more years for the discount on gas price, but actually Russia lied and this agreement should be canceled, in my opinion.
well, you don't believe USA has anything to do with it. so Putin just saw the perfect moment to start the invasion of Europe? there is no threat to russian interests?
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 15, 2014 08:33 AM |
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Edited by ihor at 08:39, 15 Mar 2014.
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Quote:
I didn't mean there were guys from american organizations demonstrating in the streets. and I didn't mean it was organized in just a few days. those organizations have probably been there for years (even before the orange revolution) acting in the shadows. I don't doubt ukrainians had real reasons to protest, but revolutions and mass movement rarely happen spontaneously, there is generally a powerful hand guiding the mass, or nothing would happen at all.
I don't deny that is what US wanted, but looking back on the events I wouldn't say US organized it in any way. The only thing I suppose took place is money for field kitchen and other things to for life in camp. Obviously it took thousands of dollars every day and we don't know whether US or Ukrainian oligarchs gave them. Actually the self-organization was quiet good, and there were groups on Facebook, I know many many average Ukrainians who spent their money to support that. Returning back to the reasons, you know, these protests could be divided in 3 phases.
1 phase - from 21 November till 30 November - there were about 50 thousands of protesters at max, over the nights there were only about 100 students and journalists, and the protesters wanted the EU agreement to be signed. If Yanukovich hadn't order to disprese the square, I think there would have been no people on maidan two days afterwards, they angry would have gone home waiting for next elections.
2 phase - from 30 November till 16 January - Yanukovich made a huge mistake, for some reason he decided, that if he uses force to disperse protesters camp during the night on November 30th and beat 100 hundred students, then people will be afraid and hide in their houses. The reaction was antipodal. The very next day there were 100 thousands protesters on the streets, and half a million next Sunday. And they now didn't want just EU agreement, but they wanted resignation of Ministry of Internal Affairs and fair investigation of what was happened last night. The protesters became more radical. Veterans of War in Afghanistan joined the protest, Self-Defence organization was established at that time, which main task was to defend maidan from riot police. But still this phase was peaceful.
3 phase - from 16 January till 22 February, you know after the dictatorship laws the protesters became even more angry. And then the Right Sector (that consisted of several different far-right organizations) started throwing Molotovs. Eventually on February 18th, riot police decided to clear the square, but they didn't succeed, several people died from both sides, then on February 20th, snipers were used and a lot people killed. On Februray 22nd, parliament ousted Yanukovich.
So who do you think was trained by US? Right Sector? Self-Defence guys? Afghans???
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well, you don't believe USA has anything to do with it. so Putin just saw the perfect moment to start the invasion of Europe? there is no threat to russian interests?
I don't deny that what happened is not in Russia's interest. But everyone has to know how to lose, you know? The fact is Ukraine didn't break any bilateral or international treaties while Russia broke a bunch of them by occupying Crimea.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 15, 2014 08:43 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 08:45, 15 Mar 2014.
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Quote:
First, EU does not necessary mean NATO.
It actually does. Ukraine is too sweet for NATO to miss the opportunity to grab when the time is right. All new EU members from the former Eastern bloc are also NATO members and what's more, becoming an EU member has been somewhat tied to the NATO membership in all cases so far. It is naive to think that this is not the strategic aim of the (main) NATO countries and it's pretty much the main reason why Russia won't back off empty-handed - because it would mean a big loss in the long run. Maybe not with Crimea but certainly with restoring part of its influence in Ukraine prior to the riots.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 15, 2014 08:51 AM |
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Edited by ihor at 08:53, 15 Mar 2014.
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Well Sweden, Finland, Austria are not in NATO, right? But they are in EU. I understand that these organizations are very tied and Russia obviously thinks that they can lose Ukraine after EU deal. Anyway Ukraine is pretty divided country and such questions like integration to NATO can only be approved by all-ukrainian referendum. Before Russia's invasion the percentage of supporting NATO integration was about 20% (although I support that because I always thought the only possible agressor for Ukraine is Russia). After Russian invasion the percentage can even be more than 50%, I don't know. But it looks Putin unites Ukrainians.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 15, 2014 09:14 AM |
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None of these countries were part of the Eastern bloc  . I guess if Finland enters NATO the Russians will jump against that but the other two aren't of great importance, especially given that NATO already has plenty of bases alongside the Russian western border.
Look, we all know that the vast majority of the people who ousted Yanukovych are probably a completely normal people who wanted something to change for the better. That however doesn't mean that the events in Kiev don't serve other people's interests. Russia has almost completely lost control over the European buffer countries while NATO has gained much ground for the last 20 years. The guys in Kremlin think "OK, now Ukraine may sign an association agreement with the EU and in 4-5 years it will probably also become part of NATO. With Georgia being a potential entrée in the south and Poland + the Baltic countries being part of NATO in the west, we will be completely surrounded in Europe. In case of war, we will be put in a very bad position from the start. We can't allow that." And they acted. Frankly no major power in Russia's position would have done otherwise.
At the same time, the crisis is an ideal opportunity for the core NATO countries to prepare the ground for yet another enlargement, playing saints and incredibly concerned about Ukraine's territorial integrity because of laws and whatnot. At the same time the very same countries allowed and encouraged Kosovo to be separated from Serbia and called it the right thing to do, not to mention the numerous wars presented as "humanitarian missions" in the Middle East and Africa. The double standards are something completely normal in the international politics, however this doesn't mean that you have to believe them.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 15, 2014 09:32 AM |
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That makes perfect sense from the imperialistic point of view of Putin. Historically Russia and NATO are on different sides of the barricades, but I don't see any reasons why Russia itself can't enter NATO in the future and build normal partnership relationships with neighbouring countries.
Yeah, double standards are everywhere, but contrary to Serbia, major military countries (including US, UK and Russia) signed a Budapest memorandum (1994) to guarantee territorial integrity of Ukraine and that is why I say they are in very nasty situation.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 15, 2014 09:52 AM |
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Russia in NATO? Not in this world. The existing NATO countries will not be able to handle such a member, nor they want to, while at the same times the global interests of the existing core NATO countries and Russia are usually in opposition and that is not likely to change any time soon. Forget about this.
Putin's policy is no more imperialistic than that of NATO, in fact at the moment it's more about preserving existing "assets" than gaining new ones and the latter fits the description of imperialism a bit more.
As for Crimea and Kosovo - from the international law's point of view the separation of Kosovo from Serbia is just as justified as an eventual separation of Crimea from Ukraine and Russia can use exactly the same arguments which the western countries used a few years back. One memorandum changes nothing, Russia will claim that it didn't annex Crimea but that Crimea decided to join it, which is just fine given the Kosovo precedent. What's legal and what's not plays a very little role here, international laws and agreements have been trampled too many times before to become important now out of a sudden.
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