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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 18, 2014 08:41 PM |
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Gunfred said:
Did not notice it until you put it in black but it looks like a joke about how the USA acts as if it owns the world.
Well, I couldn't be sure if it was a joke or not. Some Americans do support the idea that they should have the right to intervene anywhere, anytime they want. Although Blizz seems like a much more reasonable guy than that, nothing indicates he was joking except the extremity of the idea itself.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted March 18, 2014 08:47 PM |
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artu said:
Gunfred said:
Did not notice it until you put it in black but it looks like a joke about how the USA acts as if it owns the world.
Well, I couldn't be sure if it was a joke or not.
Come on, when has bliz ever joked? 
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Living time backwards
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 18, 2014 08:55 PM |
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@Seraphim, it's not about what was right to do - you really believe that anybody cared about that? - it's about what was convenient to do. That Balkans are the Great Powers' playground ever since the Ottoman Empire become too weak to protect itself, they still are. Truth is, the Kosovo case essentially opens the legal way for all sorts of disintegrations because the majority of the countries actually admitted that it is something normal a country to lose part of its territory if the people living on that territory don't want to be with the host country any more. This opens the floodgates for all sorts of exploits, which are currently being used by the Russians in Crimea. And the Balkans? Man, I don't even want to imagine what hell they can become in case of some major crisis, with the many ethnic enclaves outside their national countries. Like it or not, Kosovo may be just the spark that Europe's brothel needs to be set ablaze again, if Europe suddenly loses its integrity.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 18, 2014 10:15 PM |
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Quote:
That Balkans are the Great Powers' playground ever since the Ottoman Empire become too weak to protect itself, they still are.
They say it takes at least a century for empires to actually crumble down. If you look at the 20th century, you will see that everywhere that used to be in Ottoman control was a terrible mess. The Middle East, the Balkans, North Africa. When there is a power gap, it is immediately filled with struggle for dominance. It really resembles the biological world in that sense.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 18, 2014 11:31 PM |
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seraphim said:
You guys cant probably believe in the fact that Nnobody in kosovo would have wanted to contunue to live with serbs. it would have continued to this day to be UN refugee camp like palestine, with constant serb bombing.
You see, the west never wanted 1.4 million immigrants to flee kosovo, so thats why they invaded.
I dont see crimeans being oppressed in ukraine.
you know, unbeknowst to you foreigners, Kosovo had no running institutions from 90 to 99. That 9 years of no schools, no work or no development being made in that area.
And sincerely, yugoslavia wasnt a democration union,but a dictatorship.
Its pretty morally justified to declare independence from a dictatorship.
If kosovo wasnt as pathetic as it is now, it would have been nice.
Deporting all foreigners,and people who do not recognize the legitimacy of the state and having one national language, like other countries around it.
Why would we not believe that? 
I would not want to live with serbs either...  (just a little offense)
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted March 19, 2014 03:32 AM |
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GunFred said:
Why would we not believe that?
I would not want to live with serbs either... (just a little offense)
Its not about living together.
The problem is that once you have a bunch of hating nuts on both sides and one starts discriminating and a slur/discrimination fest happens, namely what Milosevic claimed about albanians and what his policy was towards kosovo, that created alot of animosity. Luckily, I was just an infant at that time and never absorbed all that hate directed at us.
Personally, I would not have minded Yugoslavia if it became a democratic union and supported all minorities.
Many people long for yugoslav times in Kosovo aswell.
In other news:
Putins speech Mar 18, 2014:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDLwu4E35us
Kinda interesting to see what he says. I mostly agree with him. The only part I disagree is that he claims that in Ukraine they wanted to ban the russian language. That has been proven to have been a draft or something, and was rejected.
Well, its a long speech, I cant remember everything what he says anyway.
Enjoy or hate I guess. I am sincerely interested if Crimea will affect Scotlands independence bid in any shape or form.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 19, 2014 08:13 AM |
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Quote:
The only part I disagree is that he claims that in Ukraine they wanted to ban the russian language. That has been proven to have been a draft or something, and was rejected.
Well, not quite. The national assembly accepted the revocation of the regional languages law but the president didn't sign it, probably because he is not that stupid and figured out that such a step will alienate a lot of external supporters and will certainly make Russia's claims far more acceptable to the western countries. It's a fact however that there are some hardcore nationalists in the interim government, some of which are pure neo-Nazis. What's more, they were the most active part of the Maidan riots and as such can claim that they have actually ousted Yanukovych and the more moderate parties owe them a lot. Of course, Kremlin makes use of this to fuel its own propaganda but the excuse that the interim government can do very stupid things if left unchecked is not baseless.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 19, 2014 11:08 AM |
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I'm surprised this snow's still going on. What in the world is there more to debate?
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somi
Known Hero
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posted March 19, 2014 01:58 PM |
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Edited by somi at 14:05, 19 Mar 2014.
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seraphim said:
Quote:
Lastly, it is VERY wrong for Ukraine and Crimea to be judged by historical hypocracy from the west and Russia. Russia are the bad guys in this case but perhaps it would have been different if they had acted differently or later.
This I completely agree with.
You guys cant probably believe in the fact that Nnobody in kosovo would have wanted to contunue to live with serbs. it would have continued to this day to be UN refugee camp like palestine, with constant serb bombing.
You see, the west never wanted 1.4 million immigrants to flee kosovo, so thats why they invaded.
I dont see crimeans being oppressed in ukraine.
you know, unbeknowst to you foreigners, Kosovo had no running institutions from 90 to 99. That 9 years of no schools, no work or no development being made in that area.
And sincerely, yugoslavia wasnt a democration union,but a dictatorship.
Its pretty morally justified to declare independence from a dictatorship.
If kosovo wasnt as pathetic as it is now, it would have been nice.
Deporting all foreigners,and people who do not recognize the legitimacy of the state and having one national language, like other countries around it.
Heh. Actually the thing you are saying are not correct 100%.
I can go into detail if you really want, but it doesnt have to do anything with milosevic, it mostly has to do with making groups like UCK that started killing people from 1992 (it actually started to happen a long time before that in 1980s). After that there was all scum coming to kosovo, starting killing each other.
Other thing is immigrants that started to flee kosovo from the war that was happening between terrorist like UCK illegal militia and military. And the full mass imigration did really start after nato intervention because stupid milosevic order it.
The most funny thing is after the occupation of nato troops (same as russia is doing now, but it was and still is 10 times worse on kosovo), the totally same thing happend to serbs that happend to albanias during the war. Over 100 000 people left their homes. Heh right now, in my home someone else lives illegally and calling it his home xD.
So nothing is black and white. And also nothing ended, there will be a lot more snow happening on balkan both on kosovo and in other regions in future.
When it comes to russia, if west and nato did snow in the past, and illegal stuff, it does not give russia right to do the same, because they are same snow than.
Kosovo while not 100% same to crimea (there were no terrorist attacks, no military response and similar), it is pretty much similar, and from legal point same.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 19, 2014 02:01 PM |
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Quote:
It's a fact however that there are some hardcore nationalists in the interim government, some of which are pure neo-Nazis. What's more, they were the most active part of the Maidan riots and as such can claim that they have actually ousted Yanukovych and the more moderate parties owe them a lot. Of course, Kremlin makes use of this to fuel its own propaganda but the excuse that the interim government can do very stupid things if left unchecked is not baseless.
That's not true. The radicals from Right Sector with far-right views are not in the interim government. Nationalistic Svoboda party, which has people in government became less radical after they managed to get ~35 MPs in Rada. You can't say they are neo-nazis.
Also, what stupid actions do you think the interim government did?
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somi
Known Hero
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posted March 19, 2014 02:09 PM |
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Edited by somi at 14:10, 19 Mar 2014.
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ihor said:
Quote:
It's a fact however that there are some hardcore nationalists in the interim government, some of which are pure neo-Nazis. What's more, they were the most active part of the Maidan riots and as such can claim that they have actually ousted Yanukovych and the more moderate parties owe them a lot. Of course, Kremlin makes use of this to fuel its own propaganda but the excuse that the interim government can do very stupid things if left unchecked is not baseless.
That's not true. The radicals from Right Sector with far-right views are not in the interim government. Nationalistic Svoboda party, which has people in government became less radical after they managed to get ~35 MPs in Rada. You can't say they are neo-nazis.
Also, what stupid actions do you think the interim government did?
This happend few days ago:
Video
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 19, 2014 02:15 PM |
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Yes, that was a scandal yesterday. However all the authorities including prime-minister, leader of Svoboda, acting president and police chef condemned these actions. General Prosecutor has promised a fair investigation.
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somi
Known Hero
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posted March 19, 2014 02:53 PM |
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Here is another interesting video:
Video
Nothing new, there are drunk russians there 
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 19, 2014 03:15 PM |
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somi said:
This happend few days ago:
Video
That looked nasty but who were the people and what was going on?
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 19, 2014 03:29 PM |
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@Gunfred
Some of the Svoboda MPs entered the building of 1st state TV channel and decided that it would be a great idea to force its head to resign. What is even more stupid that they streamed a video of that online! They were angry that the channel supported Yanukovych and now showed Russian celebration after joining of Crimea. The funny thing is by these actions they added material for Russian channels to show.
And that guy, the head of the channel, would have been anyway fired by the decision of government in a few days.
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somi
Known Hero
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posted March 19, 2014 03:31 PM |
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GunFred said:
somi said:
This happend few days ago:
Video
That looked nasty but who were the people and what was going on?
There are from Svoboda, one of parties that are in the government.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 19, 2014 07:05 PM |
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ihor said:
That's not true. The radicals from Right Sector with far-right views are not in the interim government. Nationalistic Svoboda party, which has people in government became less radical after they managed to get ~35 MPs in Rada. You can't say they are neo-nazis.
Also, what stupid actions do you think the interim government did?
Without having a very deep knowledge on Svoboda's agenda, isn't their program related to "purifying" Ukraine by banning adoptions of Ukrainian children by non-Ukrainians, entering the ethnic origin and birthplace in official documents, criminalizing "hatred against Ukraine", banning non-Ukraine (and particularly Russian) language from the schools and such? Sounds fairly close to "classic" Nazism, although it doesn't really preach inferiority and superiority dogmas (but I've read that the party leader is hardly Jew-lover).
As for what stupid things the government did - it started pretty badly when it decided to abolish the regional languages law, even though that ultimately hanged in the air. If I was a Russian-speaker living in Ukraine, such a step would certainly send a bad message to me. Also, from what I know it still refuses to investigate the shootings on the Maidan which hardly reinforces its position. It didn't really have much time to do whatever it wants though, Russia acted too quickly and now is an obstacle which has to be dealt with carefully. It is good however that there are enough moderates in the interim government to make sure that the most radical idiots will not completely **** up everything. But I don't think you should expect any real fairness or justice from such people, at least until the crisis is over.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 19, 2014 11:45 PM |
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Well, Svoboda presents itself as nationalists, not nazists. The difference is subtle, and most of the things you mentioned are true but I didn't find in their program any kind of intolerance by race or language. Free development of any minority language is guaranteed by the Constitution and they do not deny this. Also, it was really a famous ethnically intolerant speech of their leader long time ago before Svoboda was created, but they now really want everybody to forget this to look better in eyes of european partners. Interesting fact that rating of Svoboda is constantly decreasing, even when they were in opposition, usually opposition in Ukraine has good benefits, as they can simply criticise the government.
I agree about the worst time new government found to repell the language law. It was really accepted 2 years ago with breaking the regulations and caused protests in society, but anyway the decision of acting president to veto this was logical. You know, we don't have any oppression of any language here and all the language laws are just tricks to mobilize eastern or western electorate before elections. Cynically enough. And I agree that we shouldn't really expect super fairness now.
I think we learned after maidan to expect nothing, blame nobody, do something.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted March 20, 2014 03:04 PM |
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@ihor
Greetings from the mid-west U.S.
I'm wondering; how do "the people" in the region see "Borders" after what has been happening in the West?
Myself, while I think what has happened is illegal because if it were legal than China would have a right to neighborhoods in New York, London and San Francisco if based solely on language or ethnicity.
<imo> The EU nations(Nordik nations before)have "sort of tempted fate" and Russia's case by ignoring their own National borders. To clarify; the EU's actions didn't give Russia the green-light, they're in the wrong here but to me the EU has been playing a dangerous game for a while now. What's sad, in the end, is that no actions are about the people, it is all about Business, in this case...Energy.
Again, I'm not condoning Russia's actions but if they had not "recognized sovereign Ukraine" in the 90s, I probably would say; yeah, the UK is letting Scotland bail out and people don't have to recognize boundaries in Europe anymore, seems my idea of Borders is becoming a dead concept.
For me a border defines a nation and all this fluff the West has been doing betrays the very idea. The U.S. gov. is doing "sort of" the same thing but just will not admit it to its own people.
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted March 20, 2014 05:29 PM |
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somi said:
Heh. Actually the thing you are saying are not correct 100%.
I can go into detail if you really want, but it doesnt have to do anything with milosevic, it mostly has to do with making groups like UCK that started killing people from 1992 (it actually started to happen a long time before that in 1980s). After that there was all scum coming to kosovo, starting killing each other.
You know, unlike you, I happen to live in that place. I know what happened during the war and the KLA did many atrocious things also to albanians aswell. However, Mr Milo responded by purging villages.
If that had continued, it would have been palestine in the balkans.
And by the way, the KLA did not do any attacks before 1996. Until that point, it was all a peaceful protest against Milosevic, under Ibrahim Rugova.
Quote:
The most funny thing is after the occupation of nato troops (same as russia is doing now, but it was and still is 10 times worse on kosovo), the totally same thing happend to serbs that happend to albanias during the war. Over 100 000 people left their homes. Heh right now, in my home someone else lives illegally and calling it his home xD.
Most serbian homes were looted and destroyed now and or repossessed.
Thats something both regrettable and imo should be repaid to those families. Unfortunately, even to this day, there is little reason to love serbs and i bet serbs have little reason to love albanians.
There is no tolerance and life has no value. I see that in the west as well, especially from islamists.
Well, as long as balkans remains a religiou/nationalism infested endemic area, there is not going to be any peace.
Unlike you, I dont find it funny at all.
Quote:
So nothing is black and white. And also nothing ended, there will be a lot more snow happening on balkan both on kosovo and in other regions in future.
Meh, the only ones with a capable army that could do something are Serbia,Croatia and Greeks. Unless Turkey makes a caliphate out of Kosovo. That means, the only precedent for war comes from the three aforementioned countries.
Quote:
When it comes to russia, if west and nato did snow in the past, and illegal stuff, it does not give russia right to do the same, because they are same snow than.
Thats a nice argument you have there, used by russia alot.
The only ones taking advantage of the so called precedent is the one who warned against the "precedent", Russia.
I could argue the same and say that Chechenya and Palestine are precedents that show the world that if you dont define a border with a seperatist group, you are going to have an agonizing and costly war.
In other words, places like chechenya or palestine will remain permanent snow holes ad infinitum and breeding places for terrorism.
Quote:
Kosovo while not 100% same to crimea (there were no terrorist attacks, no military response and similar), it is pretty much similar, and from legal point same.
True, but then crimea joined russia. I could only imagine the snow storm if in the balkan wars and kosovo war, RSrpska joined Serbia or if Kosovo joined Albania.
But then, since kosovo will never be a part of the EU or the UN, it will eventually, de facto be a part of albania. States with no future, join states that have access to international organizations.
Same with RSrpska with Serbia.
So in the end, one could argue that Russia is right. Too bad its all just powerplay and the interests of the people are not considered.
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