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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted March 23, 2014 10:46 AM |
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Quote:
The big media companies are very consistent in depicting the Crimean case as a Russian invasion while the smaller ones have the full range from hatred toward the Russians to glorifying their actions - and in the middle you can find something rather objective.
We are talking here about state of situation, not judging if it's right.
In fact, you only confirm my statement that media can have different opinions.
All in all, it's not a matter of who says what. To prove truth, one needs to convince OTHERS that this is the truth. So one station means nothing, but all of them mean something.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 23, 2014 11:06 AM |
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Quote:
So one station means nothing, but all of them mean something.
They mean what in this case? Pretty much all of them report that there is a large contingent of Russian military personnel in Crimea (Moscow doesn't even find the need to deny this any more). And... well, that's it actually. From this point on, the interpretations begin. You will hear from a lot of places that many people voted on the referendum with AK-74 pointed at their heads no less but with zero hard evidences to prove that. You will also hear that Russia broke the international law while in fact it didn't break anything which hasn't already been deliberately broken before, and depending on how you read the UN charter, it didn't even objectively break it. You will probably also hear quite often - and that's the biggest nonsense of all - that Putin expands his domain and may threaten other countries as well while even a middle school-level analysis will show you that Russia doesn't have neither the economic, nor the military resources to go into offensive against anyone who can be backed by NATO at some point. You will hear great many things which have nothing to do with reality but are presented as truths. Playing with people's fears is one of the easiest ways to manipulate them.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 23, 2014 04:48 PM |
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I think it's highly likely that Putin will try to annex Donetsk and the rest of eastern Ukraine aswell. I believe he already has puppets installed, he's got legitimacy from his parliament, troops are amassing at the eastern border and the West has shown that it doesn't really care about saving Ukraine from militarily imposed Russian influence.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted March 23, 2014 04:54 PM |
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qGunfred
I would not mind seeing Sweden get invaded by Russia...
You are not un nato.
Time for those russians getting oppressed by swedish blonde supremacy to be freed.
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Orzie 
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 23, 2014 05:08 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 17:08, 23 Mar 2014.
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No, Warmonger, as I can understand you pose Western media as innocent and pure truth while accusing Russian as sold out. Try to remove the pink glasses please. The Western media is NO LESS sold out than the Eastern. We Russians have a proverb - "he who pays the piper calls the tune".
For example, this video shows the 'peaceful demonstrants' from Maidan. For some reason Western mass media just didn't show to anyone the anarchy and crowd rage happening in Kiev, saying only that the Special Forces were hurting the innocent people with clubs and fists. Twisting the truth, providing one-sided information about the conflict and all that - that is the work of the modern mass media.
VIDEO
Always think critically about what you see on the Internet. Always think who can benefit. That is all I can say to you all. In 99% of cases, everyone is guilty.
Quote:
I think it's highly likely that Putin will try to annex Donetsk and the rest of eastern Ukraine aswell. I believe he already has puppets installed, he's got legitimacy from his parliament, troops are amassing at the eastern border and the West has shown that it doesn't really care about saving Ukraine from militarily imposed Russian influence.
I don't think so. The trick with 'fascists' and army won't work because there is no Russian navy base in Donetsk. Crimea has a strategical value due to its close position to the Black Sea, while many Eastern Ukraine regions are not that valuable in terms of navy potential.
The West did not make so many threats because currently it depends too much on Russian raw resources. However, I suspect that the second iron curtain can be raised in future (which sucks because I won't be able to leave Russia so easily as before).
I also suspect simple Warmonger's dislike to Russia even without the latest events, lol. Poland always was a rival to Eastern Slavic nations, and the most protesting nation against the communism amongst Slavic republics. But I may be mistaken and it's an off topic anyway 
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 23, 2014 05:19 PM |
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seraphim said:
qGunfred
I would not mind seeing Sweden get invaded by Russia...
You are not un nato.
Time for those russians getting oppressed by swedish blonde supremacy to be freed.
True, we do not have a very friendly attitude against Russia, the nation. Who knows, right wing extremists are growing even here as well so maybe ethnic cleansing of russians could begin at any time now. Surely it is Putin's moral duty to protect those russians before the cleansing can even be planned. 
And we already know that Russia has practiced such an invasion and knows exactly what to do to swiftly take out any military resistance.
Good thing is though that perhaps the politicians woke up from their dreams of peace and realized that they better choose NATO or stop diminishing the military.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 23, 2014 05:36 PM |
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Orzie said:
No, Warmonger, as I can understand you pose Western media as innocent and pure truth while accusing Russian as sold out. Try to remove the pink glasses please. The Western media is NO LESS sold out than the Eastern. We Russians have a proverb - "he who pays the piper calls the tune".
For example, this video shows the 'peaceful demonstrants' from Maidan. For some reason Western mass media just didn't show to anyone the anarchy and crowd rage happening in Kiev, saying only that the Special Forces were hurting the innocent people with clubs and fists. Twisting the truth, providing one-sided information about the conflict and all that - that is the work of the modern mass media.
Media as far as I know never lied about the violent riots. "Western media" as said before includes tons of different sources and attitudes. I can say with confidence that my own nation's media is VASTLY SUPERIOR to that of Russia's and certain "western" ones. Especially mainstream news media is almost entirely void of personal preferences and ideology.
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted March 23, 2014 05:43 PM |
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GunFred said:
....my own nation's media is VASTLY SUPERIOR to that of Russia's and certain "western" ones. Especially mainstream news media is almost entirely void of personal preferences and ideology.
You are just asking for an invasion now.
But thats true, western media has lots of other channels, even in youtube, where their bread and butter is to blame and criticize or hate the west.
I cant see any russian media channel hating or criticizing russia or china.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 23, 2014 06:21 PM |
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Quote:
I cant see any russian media channel hating or criticizing russia or china.
There was Lenta.ru, commonly recognized as the neutral and objective resource. But unfortunately, its director got removed from her post, and you know the consequences.
Russian media is a total bullsnow if you ask me. Tabloids are superior in terms of bullsnow, but that's how things go in every country I suppose. I wonder how anyone can even believe to what they say.
Personally I keep in contact with some people who are in the epicenter. There are not many of them for me, but still.
I must admit that Russia loses the information war (even counting the totally sold out media) as it has never been proficient in it. It lost that war in the time of Maidan, and loses in terms of Crimea. Now everyone thinks Russians are conquerors, current Ukrainian government is formed of honest people and Maidan was a struggle for freedom instead of a west-provoked rebellion.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 23, 2014 07:07 PM |
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The best thing one can do is actually to disregard all but the solid facts provided by the media and use his/her own brain to do the analysis. Yes, sometimes it's not easy to find out such facts and yes, very often the facts are manipulated heavily. That's why you also need some "external knowledge" about the general tendencies in the world to have a better idea when you are lied to and when you are told the truth. Unfortunately most people will never bother digging deeper than the surface and will be content with the first seemingly reliable source of information (and what's reliable depends on what you are taught as reliable). In times of crisis nobody can really expect any sort of objectivity coming from any of the opposing sides and everyone can expect the propaganda to drown all or nearly all media. Add the multiple layers of prejudices, traditionally built-in some peoples' consciousness or deliberately created to serve someone's interests and you have a very, very old-fashioned "lies become truths" scenario.
Quote:
Media as far as I know never lied about the violent riots.
....
Especially mainstream news media is almost entirely void of personal preferences and ideology.
One question - how many times did you hear that the interim government would not investigate the shootings on the Maidan from your mainstream media? In Bulgaria, we heard it only once, when the leaked conversation was released in youtube, and it was basically a footnote in the news, like "and now 2 minutes of Kremlin propaganda before we get to the sport news, 'cause we are objective and so on". Total silence after that. And one related question - how many times did you hear that person X, Y, Z from the main EU countries, the US, the gazillion useless international organizations and the Intergalactic Human and Alien Rights Union have condemned the Russian actions, that they are negotiating with the democratic interim government, that they are offering help to Ukraine, etc., etc.?
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted March 23, 2014 08:02 PM |
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stop mocking Kremlin, it's just a building. and buildings have done nothing wrong to you.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 23, 2014 09:52 PM |
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Zenofex said:
Quote:
Media as far as I know never lied about the violent riots.
....
Especially mainstream news media is almost entirely void of personal preferences and ideology.
One question - how many times did you hear that the interim government would not investigate the shootings on the Maidan from your mainstream media? In Bulgaria, we heard it only once, when the leaked conversation was released in youtube, and it was basically a footnote in the news, like "and now 2 minutes of Kremlin propaganda before we get to the sport news, 'cause we are objective and so on". Total silence after that. And one related question - how many times did you hear that person X, Y, Z from the main EU countries, the US, the gazillion useless international organizations and the Intergalactic Human and Alien Rights Union have condemned the Russian actions, that they are negotiating with the democratic interim government, that they are offering help to Ukraine, etc., etc.?
I did not hear anything about the new government investigating murders by the police or protesters. Not sure if I should have as it would be unnatural for the new government to seek justice for dead or wounded policemen when there was a violence against violence conflict, especially as the majority of the dead were on the new government side. I have not heard much about negotiating with or helping the new government but oviously a lot of concern for Russia's actions from politicians and experts. Not sure if I managed to answer your questions properly but I hope so.
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted March 23, 2014 10:17 PM |
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Anybody read this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
1. Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders.
2. Refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine.
3. Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.
4. Seek United Nations Security Council action if nuclear weapons are used against Ukraine.
5. Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Ukraine.
Consult with one another if questions arise regarding these commitments
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted March 23, 2014 10:50 PM |
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Something more lighthearted for once 
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted March 23, 2014 11:09 PM |
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted March 24, 2014 02:17 AM |
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Lol. Every big country out there, USA, China, Russia, etc, they all deny things they shouldn't do. But Russia does it differently, it's like they want to tease us, they don't put an effort into making it look serious, as if they want us to know they re fooling around. Look at that gorgeous and very young for an attorney general gal. Hahahaha.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 24, 2014 05:00 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 08:58, 24 Mar 2014.
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Quote:
Look at that gorgeous and very young for an attorney general gal. Hahahaha.
Four her predecessors retired from their job or did not attend it at all, being afraid of the consequences.
So that she is a brave woman I must say. And a good marketing trick, lol.
No one denies that in a stable Ukraine with no disorder and rebellions she would never get such a career so fast.
And the guys who are currently in charge - too. Probably - never. Rebellion is such a nice way for some people to sneak to the ruling post while they wouldn't ever have a chance to get it by the lawful means.
Quote:
Every big country out there, USA, China, Russia, etc, they all deny things they shouldn't do.
Of course, it's politics. And while NATO crawls to the East, rules become unnecessary, because what rule can be the rule if your anti-air defence systems all become useless junk? Not counting this fact - what is really not serious. It is called fooling yourself. No one said the war is over. We are never safe.
Quote:
1. Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders.
There was a Russian Navy base stationed in Crimea until 2042, with an opportunity to prolong the pact up to 2047. Putin did not drive the forces in the Ukraine - they have always been there.
Also, 'public referendum' has shown the results. Crimea becomes independent and consequently offers to join Russia. Formally.
Quote:
2. Refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine.
It were quasi-pro-Russians who shooted there for a little, and hired snipers who most probably were hired by the current Ukraine government or the West itself to provoke the situation. So that formally Russia did not use any force.
Quote:
3. Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.
Hehehehe. The EU loans with their specific method of paying debts will show the democracy as is. Ukraine's budget is in a very bad shape.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 24, 2014 08:27 AM |
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Quote:
did not hear anything about the new government investigating murders by the police or protesters. Not sure if I should have as it would be unnatural for the new government to seek justice for dead or wounded policemen when there was a violence against violence conflict, especially as the majority of the dead were on the new government side. I have not heard much about negotiating with or helping the new government but oviously a lot of concern for Russia's actions from politicians and experts. Not sure if I managed to answer your questions properly but I hope so.
So much for the "objectivity" then. In the leaked conversation it is mentioned that the policemen and the protesters might have been shot by the same snipers. Guess nobody bothered to mention that in the objective Swedish news though.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 24, 2014 08:54 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 08:57, 24 Mar 2014.
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Quote:
did not hear anything about the new government investigating murders by the police or protesters
Of course. There is no need to investigate: The people of Maidan are now heroes regardless if they killed someone or not. The policemen are now all villains regardless if they killed someone or not.
History is written by victors.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 24, 2014 10:05 AM |
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@Doomforge
Quote:
Problem is, Svoboda glorifies Stepan Bandera.
Hey, I don't support Svoboda and Stepan Bandera is a very controversial person, but what are you trying to say? That he is a nazist? He spent several years in a jail in Germany. Of course there were some tragic events in Volyn region that you as Polish can't stand, but massive murders were from both sides. Eventually now Ukraine and Poland are not enemies, right? Also you have Pilsudski who is considered a hero in Poland, but we Ukrainians don't like him. And at the same time we accept that he fought for Poland, so it's okay. What I am trying to say, that we can determine by ourselves who is hero and who is criminal for Ukraine.
@Orzie
Quote:
I must admit that Russia loses the information war (even counting the totally sold out media) as it has never been proficient in it. It lost that war in the time of Maidan, and loses in terms of Crimea. Now everyone thinks Russians are conquerors, current Ukrainian government is formed of honest people and Maidan was a struggle for freedom instead of a west-provoked rebellion.
Information war as of Maidan? Don't you think you are talking about internal affairs of Ukraine? West-provoked rebellion? Who told you that? I personally witnessed the events there and believe me, if Yanukovich hadn't ordered to disperse protesters on the night of November 30th, then there would have been no protesters at all 3 days later! And why he did that - we can try to figure out. Hint: he visited Putin few days before. There was much more struggle for freedom, rather than western-provoked rebellion. Eventually it is a proven fact that Yanukovych is a criminal. And the new government did not brutally capture the power, they announced early elections. Seems fair, right?
Also the old government has many possibilities to fairly investigate all the events, but they were not interested in that. I am pretty confident that snipers were not from the protesters' camp. All this story is bloated on a leaked information with only some assumptions.
Quote:
There was a Russian Navy base stationed in Crimea until 2042, with an opportunity to prolong the pact up to 2047. Putin did not drive the forces in the Ukraine - they have always been there.
Also, 'public referendum' has shown the results. Crimea becomes independent and consequently offers to join Russia. Formally.
Orzie, what are you trying to deny? That Russia broke treaties? Russia did it. By bilateral treaties, all the movements of black sea fleet should be confirmed with Ukrainian side. It is ridiculous to deny that there are only black sea fleet and pro-russian self-defence there. It was proven, that some of the groups were relocated from Chechnya and other regions of Russia. I can research this more thoroughly if you want.
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It were quasi-pro-Russians who shooted there for a little, and hired snipers who most probably were hired by the current Ukraine government or the West itself to provoke the situation. So that formally Russia did not use any force.
Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. The fact is 1 Ukrainian officer died of gunshot and 2 wounded.
Quote:
Hehehehe. The EU loans with their specific method of paying debts will show the democracy as is. Ukraine's budget is in a very bad shape.
It is a bad idea to deny Russian economic pressure by appealing to EU actions.
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This thread is pages long: 
