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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted March 20, 2014 05:47 PM |
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markkur said:
@ihor
For me a border defines a nation and all this fluff the West has been doing betrays the very idea. The U.S. gov. is doing "sort of" the same thing but just will not admit it to its own people.
Well, I think that a country should only be able to declare independence if there is a rational, historical or social argument to support it. Merely becuase peoples religion got offended or because they feel they dont belong to a state should be considered illegal.
There is no international guideline when seperatism is justified. As for borders, no borders are ok, the idea of a nation is outdated.
You would be suprised to tell you that there are far more things that people have in common than they have differences in.
Borders are needed because of security reasons, the idea of nations however, its pure indoctrination to something you never had a choice anyway.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 20, 2014 06:17 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 18:18, 20 Mar 2014.
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For me, the legitimacy of secession depends on individual rights, which are the only rights I acknowledge. Secession should not supported if it is likely to result in a decline of individual rights. A majority does not have the right to infringe on individual rights.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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somi
Known Hero
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posted March 20, 2014 08:59 PM |
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Edited by somi at 21:00, 20 Mar 2014.
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seraphim said:
You know, unlike you, I happen to live in that place. I know what happened during the war and the KLA did many atrocious things also to albanians aswell. However, Mr Milo responded by purging villages.
If that had continued, it would have been palestine in the balkans.
And by the way, the KLA did not do any attacks before 1996. Until that point, it was all a peaceful protest against Milosevic, under Ibrahim Rugova.
Well, umnlike you I lived in that place, not anymore. The problem with kosov started a lot before milosevic. Also purging villages did continued, but on serb side. So nothing was stopped.
seraphim said:
Most serbian homes were looted and destroyed now and or repossessed.
Thats something both regrettable and imo should be repaid to those families. Unfortunately, even to this day, there is little reason to love serbs and i bet serbs have little reason to love albanians.
There is no tolerance and life has no value. I see that in the west as well, especially from islamists.
Well, as long as balkans remains a religiou/nationalism infested endemic area, there is not going to be any peace.
Unlike you, I dont find it funny at all.
You should find it funny, because the "reason" nato occupied kosovo to stop purging villages is not correct, because that happend to serbs.
Anyway, this is my last offtopic post in this thread
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 20, 2014 10:24 PM |
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@Markkur
I am not sure I understood your question correctly, but to be short, the vast majority of Ukrainians, even in the East, treat Russia's actions as occupation with brutal break of international and bilateral treaties. On the other hand, subconsciously we understand that Crimea is lost. This won't be officially accepted or recognized, and the main objective now is to decide what to do with our military and ethnic groups of Ukrainans and Crimean Tatars there. Probably some law will be accepted saying Crimea is still Ukrainian land under temporary occupation. I think it can be returned back completely only if Russian Federation breaks up.
Putin obviously has also intetests in South of Ukraine, but he has no support in population there and also further active actions by Russia might influence West countries even to send military.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 20, 2014 10:27 PM |
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Ihor, do you think the Crimean independence referendum was fair or fake?
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 20, 2014 10:33 PM |
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And also there was no oppression of Russians at all. And they didn't need independence, Crimean government are just Putin's pawns, eventually they joined Russia, not declared independence. So all this is considered here as Russia steals piece of Ukraine.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 20, 2014 10:38 PM |
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Fake of course. Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars boycotted it and there were about 120% of voted in Sevastopol, cause citizens of Russia were allowed to vote. And all this was done under guns.
Possibly the result could still be positive if it was fair but not 96%.
By polls from 2013 only 23% wanted to join Russia, but the president of Ukraine was pro-russian then.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 20, 2014 10:51 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 22:51, 20 Mar 2014.
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Well, one thing's for sure... Crimea won't ever have a referendum again.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 20, 2014 10:55 PM |
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Putin will teach them how to love Russia.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 21, 2014 11:01 PM |
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ihor said:
That's not true. The radicals from Right Sector with far-right views are not in the interim government. Nationalistic Svoboda party, which has people in government became less radical after they managed to get ~35 MPs in Rada. You can't say they are neo-nazis.
Problem is, Svoboda glorifies Stepan Bandera.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 22, 2014 07:41 PM |
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Quote:
And all this was done under guns.
Proof please.
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted March 22, 2014 08:46 PM |
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 23, 2014 07:26 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 07:34, 23 Mar 2014.
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So what? Isn't a Russian military base there? I have seen 40-50 helicopters while I was with a concert in Chita (near the China border), all armed. It was in the previous summer. Were they also heading to annex some other countries? It was a pretty long journey then.
Please stop watching mass media and start analyzing the situation. Unless you don't see a Russian soldier pointing a gun at you while you vote, you have no right to say that there were guns.
I don't say that Putin is the good side, but western propaganda is no less snow as the eastern. I keep in contact with the citizens of Crimea. Nothing like that happened.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted March 23, 2014 08:24 AM |
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Quote:
Unless you don't see a Russian soldier pointing a gun at you while you vote, you have no right to say that there were guns.
Surely 20K armed russian soldiers were just bystanders and are totally irrelevant for voting.
I wish they parked near your home too, Orzie  For your freedom and wealth!
Either way, it's not important who votes (however, Russians without ukrainian passport could vote, too), but who counts the votes. One of Journalist, for example, managed to vote three times in different places. Is that still ok for you?
Not to mention the support for joining Russia on Krimea about one and half year ago was around 23%.
And so on, and so on, no point to enumerate everything. What now, analyst?
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 23, 2014 08:47 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 08:50, 23 Mar 2014.
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Quote:
Surely 20K armed russian soldiers were just bystanders and are totally irrelevant for voting.
Surely you are the one who can count soldiers by watching 3-4 videos on YouTube. I envy you man. A talent like that could be very useful in counterintelligence. Proofs, proofs and proofs, dude. Â ñòóäèþ.
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I wish they parked near your home too, Orzie For your freedom and wealth!
So please show me where they park near someone's home :_) It's so nice of you to listen to journalists, but you forget that the journalists's work is to twist the truth to the advantage of the agency they are hired by. The journalists from both sides spread bullsnow, and so many people believe to it... pity.
When NATO will park near my home, it will be thrice as bad.
Well, to be honest - everyone knows that the 'referendum' is just a window dressing, but it's so funny of the US talking about 'territorial integrity' and 'false reasons' while we remember Syria, Iraq and other cases.
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Not to mention the support for joining Russia on Krimea about one and half year ago was around 23%.
Yeah, and Crimea would be never Russian if Ukraine had a strong leader. It was a mistake of Soviet government to gift it to the Ukrainian Republic. We were friends back then...
However, currently, what happens in the Ukraine is a total snowing chaos. No one wants the NATO bases near your home. Putin wouldn't turn back anyway. While Ukraine had a leader who did not allow NATO to crawl to the East, everything was okay. Now the situation has changed.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 23, 2014 08:52 AM |
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I think there are exaggerations on each side. Was the vote done in the right way? Of course not! Would it be different without the Russian forces in the peninsula? Not very likely. Maybe you wouldn't get 90%+ votes for accession but the majority would have probably voted the same. The most important bit however is that the whole chain of events past the February riots in Kiev is what led to the referendum and its results. It is very shallow to only blame Putin for everything or claim that the Russian actions are right no matter what.
And yes, the western media is once again showing that it's not much better than what you had in Nazi Germany or the USSR. One can't really expect objectivity from the Moscow-controlled sites, news agencies, etc. but nobody who follows the process and has a single honest bone in his body can claim that what the representation of the crisis in the EU/US sphere of influence is not full of propaganda and "politically correct" bias. Nothing new actually but it looks like there are still quite a lot of people who fall for that.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 23, 2014 08:58 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 09:07, 23 Mar 2014.
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Unfortunately yes, the situation is more complex. While Ukraine has a rebellion and coup d'etat, we cannot deny that there was someone who benefits from it. It's not the people. That is for sure.
As for Crimea, there are more than 50% of ethnic Russians. If the Ukraine government was recognized by Putin as legitimate, there would be no chance to enter Crimea - it would mean a war. However, Putin uses the excuse that Ukraine's parliament is usurped by fascists who threaten the Russian population of Crimea, so there is 'no legitimate side to oppose to'.
As I suppose, the fascists power is overestimated and used just an excuse, but some dudes from Western Ukraine say to me that fascists are stronger than the Western media pose.
In February I even suspected that it was Putin who partially sponsored Maidan and the rebellion, but now I think that things are even more complex.
The only conclusion I can make is that everyone sucks (no one cares for the people, neither Putin nor US/EU, it's just pure politics - but Crimea has Russians and doesn't have Americans, so it's an excuse for Putin) and it's the people who will suffer the most. I am also afraid that now everyone will treat all Russians as conquerors.
Yes, I like to conquer if we speak about another Conflux town on sight.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted March 23, 2014 09:31 AM |
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Quote:
Surely you are the one who can count soldiers by watching 3-4 videos on YouTube. I envy you man. A talent like that could be very useful in counterintelligence. Proofs, proofs and proofs, dude
What do you expect me to do? Go to Crimea and count them on my own fingers?
Many different sources (ukraininian, polish, european, usa, international) mentioned rising number of troops in Crimea. Many photos and videos show columns of armored trucks. Not sure what you want to deny?
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It's so nice of you to listen to journalists, but you forget that the journalists's work is to twist the truth to the advantage of the agency they are hired by
In Russia, yes, they do. There is one and only channel who dominated the media. It is Russia who lies to its citizens and in the West we make fun of some of the most ridiculous articles.
In the West, however, there are hundreds of TV channels, newspapers, internet services. They are all independent (of each other) and yet they provide consitent picture of Crimea situation. This is called pluralism. Again, not sure what you want to deny. Everyone but you is wrong?
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If the Ukraine government was recognized by Putin as legitimate, there would be no chance to enter Crimea
Putin does not consider others legitimate or illegitimate, he only considers allies and foes. Who is not ally (or servant, to me more precise) can be attacked. Janukovych was servant, new government is not - so we should conquer them!
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 23, 2014 09:37 AM |
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Orzie said:
Well, to be honest - everyone knows that the 'referendum' is just a window dressing, but it's so funny of the US talking about 'territorial integrity' and 'false reasons' while we remember Syria, Iraq and other cases.
Quote:
Not to mention the support for joining Russia on Krimea about one and half year ago was around 23%.
Yeah, and Crimea would be never Russian if Ukraine had a strong leader. It was a mistake of Soviet government to gift it to the Ukrainian Republic. We were friends back then...
However, currently, what happens in the Ukraine is a total snowing chaos. No one wants the NATO bases near your home. Putin wouldn't turn back anyway. While Ukraine had a leader who did not allow NATO to crawl to the East, everything was okay. Now the situation has changed.
Why does people keep mentioning Syria along with cases such as Iraq? It is like people want the USA to keep stacking unjust invasions at other peoples expense and forget that pressure from Russia/China along with Kerry's rhetorical failure put a stop to it. I like bashing the USA too but there is a limit... And it is very unfair to Ukraine and Crimea to say that Russia can do something just because the USA already did it somewhere else. Even more so than Syria, Ukraine should have been given a chance to resolve its issues itself.
Norway was swedish territory about a hundred years ago (if I remember right) until they were granted independence. Does that mean that if Norway gets a weak leader who is leaning away from Scandinavia, that Sweden can just annex Norway?(or part of it) Like Crimea to Russia, Norway would be a great strategical bonus for Sweden...
I may want NATO bases near my home if Russia keeps this up. Nobody here could have foreseen this before the protests escalated and Russia's involvement became clear. What if some russian minorities started trubble and demanded independance from Finland and Russia was bold enough to move in? It seems incredibly unlikely but nobody can say that it is 0% after Crimea.
Orzie said:
The only conclusion I can make is that everyone sucks (no one cares for the people, neither Putin nor US/EU, it's just pure politics - but Crimea has Russians and doesn't have Americans, so it's an excuse for Putin) and it's the people who will suffer the most. I am also afraid that now everyone will treat all Russians as conquerors.
True that...
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 23, 2014 09:48 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 10:06, 23 Mar 2014.
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Quote:
In the West, however, there are hundreds of TV channels, newspapers, internet services. They are all independent (of each other) and yet they provide consitent picture of Crimea situation.
They actually don't. The big media companies are very consistent in depicting the Crimean case as a Russian invasion while the smaller ones have the full range from hatred toward the Russians to glorifying their actions - and in the middle you can find something rather objective.
Still, you seem to have a very romantic idea of how the media works.
Quote:
Like Crimea to Russia, Norway would be a great strategical bonus for Sweden...
Ehm, GunFred, the difference is that Crimea was already Russia's "strategical bonus" prior to the whole mess. But suddenly the local Russian puppet fell from grace and the new government included parties which have as an official agenda to get rid of the Russian Black Sea fleet from Crimea (the Russian bases there are rented to Russia and the relevant contract expires soon). Add the high likelihood for Ukraine to join NATO within a few years if nothing is done - and trust me, nobody will really ask the Ukrainians if they want it or not - and you get the final picture. If you ask a random general from the US if he would have recommended the same in such a situation but the US defense was threatened, the answer would be "yes" and the democratic rhetoric be damned.
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