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somi
Known Hero
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posted March 24, 2014 07:53 PM |
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seraphim said:
Yep, and with serbia's support, a very powerful and nuclear state, russia is going to dominate the visible cosmos and beyond.
Joking aside, serbia supports the "independence" of crimea, the irony is killing me.
We are stupid, but not that stupid  . So you probably got the wrong information from some news.
Anyway, looks like crimean tatars will do a referendum also.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 24, 2014 09:01 PM |
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Zenofex said:
Well, it's interesting what is the "big picture" that the mainstream media focuses then. Maybe it's so big that some details - which can even be important - can't be seen? My point is that there are many types of manipulation and censorship, including some very subtle ones, and if you form a marginal opinion (like "Russia is the worst side...") based solely on what you see in the news, chances are your opinion is probably not very close to the reality. From your posts it seems that you haven't really researched anything below the very surface and you think that your media serves you only truths and doesn't spare anything about anyone. Caution is advised. We live in the information age but guess what - we also live in the disinformation age. Can't separate them, sorry.
By "big picture" I mean that mainstream media here reports the events of the world with a neutral, propaganda-free tone. It is not like we have an army of reporters and journalists that can show everything to everyone and of course everything is not what it seems but at least our media does not tell us what we as persons should believe. They mostly just hand us the available information in the manner stated above.
Poor example: There are protests in town X and those two sides fight about Y. Then nation Z invades part of nation A with the excuse of protecting ethnical Zians. President of Z says that, Aians are angry and says that... Without adding... Nation Z is evil, always wrong and secretly plans to kill Aians for fun while nation A is awesome and perfect...
Perhaps you understand what I am trying to say...
Also, I am not a very conspiratory/paranoid person so I do not make too many speculations about things but I am not going to blindly believe whatever a side I favour claims. But I am not a journalist or a local so I have to put some trust in indirect sources or I am better off without any opinions at all. I have heard many different theories and versions from various sources (including this thread). This one thing (the leaked sniper conversation) either evaded my radar or depending on its freshness, was overshadowed by Russia's invasion. It seems credible enough to be taken into account but I do not think that all this about Russia and the West/Maidan leaders manipulating people in secret changes that much about the raw events in the end. Because I think that the people of Ukraine and Crimea outweights the western and eastern politicians many times over.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 25, 2014 04:32 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 06:20, 25 Mar 2014.
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ihor said:
@Orzie
Some of the things you say are correct, but I don't fully understand your position. In short, my opinion is that Russia stole a piece of Ukraine. You can reject this, but what do you think about:
1) Were there Russian troops without military tokens in Crimea or no?
2) What organs do you think are legitimate in Ukraine: parliament? president Yanukovych? new government?
3) Did Russia break the Budapest Memorandum or no?
4) Was there any oppression of Russians in Crimea or no?
Russia has taken a piece of Ukraine (which was a piece of Russia until kind Voroshilov gave it to Ukrainian Soviet Republic in 1954). Stole or not - it's just a personal attidude to the certain fact. When it's a big politics, personal attitudes go to the background.
For example, we Russians always thought Crimea is Russian common just because we get used to the Soviet times. Personally until my 18 years birthday I thought that Donetsk and Sevastopol are Russian cities while Lvov & Kiev are Ukrainian. Just for semantic reasons. Many people have relatives here and there, many of the cities are named by the same pattern, and of course, the main reason: everyone speaks and writes Russian there, with certain dialects.
So that Putin's ratings have risen very much after the accession of Crimea, and the wave of patriotism emerged.
1) Russia denies that 'Crimean self-defence' is Russian forces without the insignia. However, everyone clearly understands that they are Russian forces, but formally they are not.
2) None of the following. However, Europe supports the current government fully, and this makes it legitimate. It's like with the 'referendum' - if no one supports the Crimean separatism, it's 100% illegitimate. If there will be several nations to approve that, 100% insurance will be gone.
3) Depends on how you recognize the situation. Point 3 (about the economical pressure) is not fulfilled at all since the Memorandum was started. As for points 1 and 2, in case of Crimea there is no 100% objective answer, because the current government of Ukraine has been created by the means of blood and coup d'etat with Yanukovitch still alive.
4) Oppression - much more no than yes. You may be probably aware of the 'Polite People' internet meme, which describes the so-called 'Crimean self-defence'. Kinda self-descriptive. Much and much more aggression and offence happened on Maidan and the latter redistribution of power there. We all watched some videos about Maidan 'commissars' hurting some officials physically and even filming it with cameras, showing 'how they punish the pro-Russian traitors'.
My position is that everyone sucks, of course. Now my chances to visit my relatives in England and Ukraine are melting. I also seem to be losing chances to go on European tours with my band.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 25, 2014 09:41 AM |
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Quote:
By "big picture" I mean that mainstream media here reports the events of the world with a neutral, propaganda-free tone.
That's nothing in itself, providing only selected information is no less propaganda than someone shouting from the TV "we good, they bad!", it's just harder to spot. The Russians are arguably terrible at subtlety, their PR methods have the finesse of a main battle tank, while the Western media actually act like they do show the issues from all sides while in fact - especially in times of crisis - they put enough bias, spare enough information and occasionally add enough (dis)information, putting excessive emphasis on unimportant points while deliberately underestimating or "forgetting" about important ones, in the end creating a "politically correct" product. Politically (somewhat) neutral analysis of a critical political situation can be searched for in universities (not always though), in private conversations between the "big shots" in the world politics - 'cause they know quite well what is the difference between public jabber and the real life, and in certain places that can not be defined as "mainstream". The major mass information sources however can never be trusted completely because - no matter how independent you think they are - nobody really allows them to spread whatever information they want, and I'm not necessarily talking about direct involvement from the state.
Quote:
Because I think that the people of Ukraine and Crimea outweights the western and eastern politicians many times over.
That's good but it's not how the western and eastern politicians think. Every side has interests in this crisis. Every side tries to show that it's the good one and it's protecting the right values. None of them really takes the well-being of the Ukrainians into account. Russia is traditionally blunt in its actions - although there is next to no real violence in Crimea so far, for an issue of such a scale - so unsurprisingly the basic reaction of the regular commoner in the west is fear and disapproval. The EU/US portray themselves as victim saviors, concerned about sovereignty, human rights and whatnot, so normally they look like the good guys. The processes on the background however have very little to do with morals and very much to do with geopolitical positioning. See, there is no balance of powers since the collapse of the USSR, the US and NATO had the chance to run amok for more than 20 years. Russia is in a bad strategical situation and by losing its standing in Ukraine its security would be even more threatened. The EU on the other hand serves as both NATO's avant-poste in many regards and as its main expansion extension. If the EU develops its own real defensive organization and breaks its ties to NATO, the relations with Russia will improve immensely - but that's very problematic for many reasons. The situation slowly changes however. The US has major financial issues and the EU is on the way to "re-think" its core building blocks for the N-th time. Russia is no longer the weak remnant of the USSR that it was some 15 years ago and with China's unstoppable advances, in the near future you will see more and more deviations from the model created after the end of the "Cold War". Of course nobody likes to lose power and of course nobody would just give it up like that. But you can bet your ass that nobody gives a damn about the Ukrainians' well-being when such strategies are being discussed.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 25, 2014 11:07 AM |
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Zenofex said:
Quote:
By "big picture" I mean that mainstream media here reports the events of the world with a neutral, propaganda-free tone.
That's nothing in itself, providing only selected information is no less propaganda than someone shouting from the TV "we good, they bad!", it's just harder to spot. The Russians are arguably terrible at subtlety, their PR methods have the finesse of a main battle tank, while the Western media actually act like they do show the issues from all sides while in fact - especially in times of crisis - they put enough bias, spare enough information and occasionally add enough (dis)information, putting excessive emphasis on unimportant points while deliberately underestimating or "forgetting" about important ones, in the end creating a "politically correct" product. Politically (somewhat) neutral analysis of a critical political situation can be searched for in universities (not always though), in private conversations between the "big shots" in the world politics - 'cause they know quite well what is the difference between public jabber and the real life, and in certain places that can not be defined as "mainstream". The major mass information sources however can never be trusted completely because - no matter how independent you think they are - nobody really allows them to spread whatever information they want, and I'm not necessarily talking about direct involvement from the state.
I think you have too high expectations of good media. They simply can't report everything and sometimes details, important or not, are going to be underprioritised because of things like uncertainty, bigger news, ideology or others. In the case of mainstream media up here, I am sure that only rarely does ideology/bias play a role in our news. I do not necessarily disagree with what you are saying but we are just not that bad up here. We really are superior to most of the world in the ways I have been saying. We may not have the capacity to report absolutely everything but we are more or less free from the media corruption.
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Baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted March 26, 2014 05:36 AM |
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Edited by Baklava at 05:39, 26 Mar 2014.
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Quote:
Joking aside, serbia supports the "independence" of crimea, the irony is killing me.
No we don't. We just see no reason not to be neutral as hell. Which makes sense. At this point, anyone with an ounce of brains can figure out that the only consistent thing, the only thing with integrity related to small countries in the way of imperial politics, is that they get f-ed.
Of course we're not going to bark at the Russian gov for defending its interests. It's at least nominally supporting us. With reassuring nodding, a hearty pat on the back and an occasional acquisition of our state gas and oil companies for next to nothing. But, yeah. Still kind of better than this.
As for us being true to our policies and not sharply opposing this shyte, we've all but recognized you, anyway. The passport issue you talked about in the Eurovision thread will resolve itself in a year or two as well. The problem was, we were run by corrupt democrats. Now we're run by corrupt nationalists-turned-democrats, which is far better, because they can keep the nationalist mobs in line while recognizing Kosovo.
It's actually far more in your interest for us to be run by ex-nationalists than original democrats. When we were run by the dems, the guys that are now in power kept organizing these supporter mobs to spam rallies and protests and occasional riots around whenever any kind of compromise was about to happen. Now that they're in power, they can de facto recognize you, take all the credit for fixing the issue, and get relieved normal people's votes while keeping the hooligans in line (with no one to fire them up). And bam, over 50% of popular support. Everyone wins. Except for my people, which ends up ruled by people who were once in coalition with Milosevic. And your people, which ends up ruled by the KLA.
I can't know how similar that is to what's going on in Ukraine and Crimea right now. But I have a feeling it won't turn out to be overly different, in time. Just, presumably, with more barking and less action. Which is always the better outcome.
At any rate, and very related to the ongoing display of tender feelings towards the NATO by various members of the board, two days ago was an important anniversary for both Seraph's folks and my own (and evidently Somi's as well), marking 15 years from getting peppered by depleted uranium, all of us indiscriminately, before the westerners wrapped it up a few months later and effectively handed over Kosovo to the KLA, and the Serbs back into Milosevic's hands.
Both the KLA and Milosevic were authoritarian despots and criminals targeting undesirables of all nationalities, with myself despising Milosevic and Seraph despising the KLA for damn good reasons. The West first endorsed Milosevic while he appeared obedient, and then, after his reckless insubordination, shifted their support toward these drug traders and organ donors, eventually intervening with the military.
This ridiculous mishandling of the situation on NATO's side left hundreds of civilians from all sides dead, countless more irradiated for generations to come, paved the road for further instability and subsequent vengeful pogroms in the region (ethnic cleansing which international peacekeepers were unable or unwilling to prevent), and allowed Milosevic's dictatorship to continue.
15 years later, they're not only proud of what they achieved. They're having a laugh.
All personal feelings aside, I wouldn't trust these people to hold my bike while I get some milk from the store.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted March 28, 2014 01:26 PM |
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Edited by kipshasz at 13:28, 28 Mar 2014.
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so, pravy sektor stormed the rada building. Or so I heard. So it means the whole "pro-europeans" you fought for so hard managed to snow up already? well, that's a new record.
or this is just their dissapointment in not regaining Crimea?
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 29, 2014 11:36 AM |
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No, there was a very strange death of one of the Right Sector activists Oleksandr Muzychko. He was famous as Sashko Bilyy and he was killed during police operation (or by other versions he killed himself???). More here. So Right Sector demanded resignation of interior minister and arrest of those policemen. Eventually Rada created a special investigation commission to determine the true circumstances of death.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted March 29, 2014 12:19 PM |
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Edited by kipshasz at 12:22, 29 Mar 2014.
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two shots in the chest as some sources say, yep, your classic suicide!
He got what he deserved.
Soon all such activists will "mysteriously" dissappear or be killed. I guarantee it. thumbs up for special services
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted March 29, 2014 01:55 PM |
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Meh. Even though they are reactionary racists I still support them over the new oligarchy that is cutting the already miserable livingstandards of the people while screaming of nuking Russia.
And above the Right Sector I support Russia incorporating the whole of that mess of a country.
If only they themselves understood this. There is more in common between the Russkies and and the Right Sector than there is between the people and this or the previous government. And that's the sad thing.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted March 29, 2014 02:13 PM |
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I won't even bother to say how wrong you are there. heck, you're stupid for thinking that. Russia won't solve those problems. neither will the bums of brussels.
basically the bandit goverment is now trying to cut all loose ends, anything that can compromise their usurpation of the goverment. simple.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted March 29, 2014 02:42 PM |
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Wasn't that what I said?
Russia = Bad,
Right sector= Worse.
Previous Government = Corrupt snow.
EU/IMF= Greedy.
This government=Corrupt, greedy and wants to nuke people.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted March 29, 2014 02:45 PM |
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You forgot to add "illegal" in the current goverment.
And like I said before, there won't be long before Ukrainians will go into the streets again demanding a new goverment. and no "anti-corruption" comitees and other crap will help you.
Follow Estonia's example. get rid of anyone with commie ties.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted March 29, 2014 02:52 PM |
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Estonia? Wasn't that the first country to have a complete collapse, requiring a bailout before anyone even knew a crisis was happening? O_o
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted March 29, 2014 03:03 PM |
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considering it has more investments froms countries like UAE over the rest of the Baltics I'd say they're doing pretty well by themselves. Also drunk Finns provide much income.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted March 29, 2014 03:20 PM |
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Swedes too, but that's just cause they are basically the only real taxhaven in the EU and provide even tax-free zones. If they were a bigger country it would never work for them. Frankly a problem for the EU. Taking jobs from elsewhere while providing an easy exit platform for foreign capital.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 29, 2014 06:38 PM |
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The interesting part is that the EU is still knee-deep in **** and the last thing it needs is a nigh-bankrupt country to soak tons of money, with a chance to fall back to the Russian sphere of influence - or at least to try to maintain some balance - some time in the future when the majority of the population sobers up.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 29, 2014 09:29 PM |
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@Zenofex
I don't think Ukraine will freely return to russian orbit. I just can't believe it might happen after the invasion. Plus we have the fact that pro-russian voters from Crimea won't vote anymore, which shifts the balance to the pro-EU side.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted March 29, 2014 10:28 PM |
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well look on the bright dark side, you have Darth Vader running for president.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 29, 2014 11:07 PM |
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Yeah, that's funny. There was a pretty cool flash mob to vote for Darth Vader on 2012 elections.
For those who understands cyrillic some photos
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