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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 28, 2014 10:07 AM |
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Quote:
However, without the Maidan Russian forces would never enter Ukraine. When rebellions/revolts happen, a foreign intervention is a common thing.
You say as Russian forces never entered Georgia. Foreign intervention is much more common when you have an aggressive neighbor or not a neighbor but interested party. There was no rebellion in Georgia, or no rebellion in Iraq, or Afghanistan.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 28, 2014 10:25 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 10:28, 28 Apr 2014.
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Of course. Georgia just attacked South Ossetia and tried to substitute Russia as the attacker, but their lies have been discovered. In that desperate try Georgia and the US have lost a lot of money for nothing.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 28, 2014 11:41 AM |
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The breaking news report there was an assault on the mayor of Kharkiv Gennady Kernes, he has gunshot wound in his back. Waiting for confirmation...
The guy is famous to support Berkut. He was also thought to have some relations with separatists, but that is not proven. Then he played with the new government to avoid jail and claimed he is for united Ukraine.
If the Right Sector did attack him, then it was a very very very stupid idea.
If that was done by pro-russian forces, that can only underline how cunning they are.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 28, 2014 02:14 PM |
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@Zenofex
Let's please tone down the level of hostility and ridicule by one notch, OK?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 29, 2014 09:51 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 09:51, 29 Apr 2014.
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ihor said:
The breaking news report there was an assault on the mayor of Kharkiv Gennady Kernes, he has gunshot wound in his back. Waiting for confirmation...
The guy is famous to support Berkut. He was also thought to have some relations with separatists, but that is not proven. Then he played with the new government to avoid jail and claimed he is for united Ukraine.
If the Right Sector did attack him, then it was a very very very stupid idea.
If that was done by pro-russian forces, that can only underline how cunning they are.
bbc.co.uk says he has changed alignments, firstly being against the Maidan and later changing his mind (which part is important in this case if it's ever true). So that it might also be a provocation by the third force or even by too zealous protesters (yet, it's hard to explain where did they get sniper rifles).
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 29, 2014 10:39 AM |
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Edited by ihor at 10:45, 29 Apr 2014.
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Having the fact that the new interior minister is long-standing rival of Kernes in Kharkiv I don't even expect a fair investigation 
More news from yesterday. There was a peaceful demonstration in Donetsk for united Ukraine. The demonstrators planned a walk with Ukrainian flags.... And it ended up as usual. Pro-russian activists armed with sticks attacked the meeting, several people injured, several people captured as hostages (later released). The people were attacked just because they were carrying Ukrainian flags, yeah on the Ukrainian territory.
No wonder people are afraid there to show their position.
And now the funny part. How Russian media describes the events:
Ukrainian radicals attack peaceful antifascist procession in Donetsk
Cool story.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 29, 2014 07:26 PM |
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typical. an aggressive presence or movement, and the people moved upon or threatened, are the bad guys. 
the only problem is, if no one here at hc, was there, then one couldn't properly form an opinion on the matter. everything at all could be hearsay, or propoganda. that'll always happen, depending on who you talk to, and the agenda at large.
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 29, 2014 11:40 PM |
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It's all very sad.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 02, 2014 04:48 PM |
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ihor said:
@Zenofex
Ahh, you get it wrong. When we talk about restoration of the USSR, it doesn't necessary have to be the same old USSR. Putin regrets the USSR broke up, right? And he would like to build another superpower state. Obviously it won't be a communist regime, but Putin definitely wants to see some more territories in this new state. That's not laughable. Let's return to Crimea... Do you know Putin has different options what to do with Crimea. For example he could leave this as an independent state, just like he did with Abhazia and South Osetia. Or the other option is to join Crimea to Russian Federation, what he actually have chosen. Do you know why? I'll tell you why. Because he thinks that Crimea is a Russian territory (iskonno russkaya zemlya). And he thinks the same about the eastern regions. During his latest interview he even named south of Ukraine as Novorossiya, exactly how it was during Russian empire 200 years ago. If we go into history, take a look how Ukraine was divided between Russian empire and Austro-Hungary at the beginning of XX century:
It's funny that Zhirinovsky suggested to divide Ukraine now between Russia, Poland, Hungary and Romania. I now he's a clown and we shouldn't take that serious, but there is a phrase: What Putin keeps in mind, Zhirinovsky says out loud. You know he were talking about returning Crimea to Russia for many years.
OK, I'm not going to argue with all this, it's pointless. Just one question to you - what do you think Russia will win in the long run if it bites another piece of Ukraine? It will certainly "win" some factories and another NATO country near its borders, what else?
Anyway, at the moment the Ukrainian army (and "National Guard") is sieging Slavyansk, with APCs and choppers among other things, there are casualties on both sides according to all sources (Western and Russian). Russia responds with some display of media outrage but otherwise doesn't make any threats at this point. Let's see where this will go.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 02, 2014 06:05 PM |
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@Zenofex
The answer to your question might include two things. First of all if we are talking about materialistic things... Last year Ukraine signed a deal with Shell and Chevron to explore shale gas resources. In fact Ukraine has rich fields of shale gas in the Eastern part of the country. Mostly Donetsk, Kharkiv and Poltava regions. There are also some fields in the Western Ukraine, though. Theoretically in several years Ukraine can use its own gas instead of Russian, which takes away Russian main instrument of influence. In case Russia grabs some of the Eastern regions, this might weaken Ukraine, plus Russia preserves Ukraine (45 million country - will be less in case of losing some of the regions) as a buyer of gas, plus Russia has some leverages to control Ukraine's politics.
The other factor is not a materialistic one. Putin just thinks that this is a russian land. Simple. Do you think Hitler thought about some kind of economic factors when he decided to occupy Sudety or joined Austria? I find that similar to what Putin did with Crimea. And I don't see any major difference between Putin's thoughts about Crimea and about Donbas. Do you? Answer this question. Why did Putin decide to join Crimea to Russian Federation?
Another video of Putin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXr-oLbT8Qc
Quotes:
"Eastern Ukraine is Novorossiya. It's deeply tied to Russia. These territories Soviet government decided to give to Ukraine in 20s of XX century. Why did they do that? Only God knows."
As for the ATO in Sloviansk, Russia calls emergency security council of UN. I don't understand what is the point in that.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 02, 2014 08:26 PM |
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Comparing Putin to Hitler is something which is overused by the propaganda lately, you should keep away from it if you want to be taken seriously. The differences are so many that I don't know where to start. If you really really really insist, we can discuss that but I'd prefer to stick to serious points.
The shale gas thing is an issue which you have probably not even began to discuss. There was major public debate in Bulgaria not so long ago whether we should begin extracting our supplies (accidentally, Chevron held the conrtact in this case as well) which ultimately resulted in the project being put on hold. Why? Serious environmental considerations, mostly. Probably the Russian energy lobby played its role too. In any case, it's rather naive to expect that Ukraine will just start extracting shale gas and solve the problem with its energy dependance from Russia just like that, this will take much more than a few years.
On the other hand, Russia as an omnipresent source of energy resources is only one part of the problem. It is also - and by far, from what the figures show - the biggest trade partner of Ukraine. Not sure what is the sutiation with your military but it's quite likely that it supplies a lot (if not all) parts for the maintenance of your tanks, fighters, choppers, etc. which are mostly (if not only) Soviet-era models, as well as buying newer models from Russia. And of course, many of your oligarchs have significant economic interests in Russia, unsurprisingly. Point is, you can't just drop the Russian influence overnight and it won't just fade away without resistence, even if the vast majority of the people want that (and people tend to change their minds in times of difficulties and you can certainly expect difficulties from Russia if you go too Polish in the long run). UK, Germany, USA, these are all far from Ukraine, while Russia is its neighbour and that alone should tell you something.
Quote:
Answer this question. Why did Putin decide to join Crimea to Russian Federation?
You should also ask yourself the same thing. I gave you my answer several times already - because it felt threatened. The interim government in Kiev consists of anti-Russians and blatantly pro-Western politicians, some of which are probably financed (in)directly by foreign governments. The ousting of Yanukovych was violent and left the impression that not everything which happened on the Maidan was a spontaneous and purely internal affair. The aftermath suggests external influence quite strongly as well. Crimea is very important to Russia and it decided to take it before the situation goes out of hand. Why did it keep it? To avoid destabilization attempts, to boost the confidence of the population in Russia itself, to make sure that it won't have to worry about the Black Sea every time when some anti-Russian forces occupy Kiev, etc. There are absolutely no indications that Putin would have decided to go that way without the Maidan. He was in facr ready to give a very large sum of money to Ukraine under conditions which the IMF will never agree on. Tell me this - does this look like part of a plan to conquer Ukrainian territories?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 02, 2014 08:38 PM |
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I dont think he compared Putin to Hitler as in they are both furious mad dictators. He meant that sometimes people invade countries because they declare a historical claim on them rather than direct economical profit.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 02, 2014 09:00 PM |
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Edited by ihor at 21:06, 02 May 2014.
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I know about environment issues of shale gas, but that is not a decisive factor that can stop Ukraine from researching this. Unlike Bulgaria, many countries research this and question the influence on environment. Anyway that is a completely different question.
It doesn't matter now what forced Putin to do what he did, so I am not talking about Maidan in this context. However it does look exactly like a plan: "OK, I'm losing Ukraine, but I can take Crimea and maybe something more". Didn't you think about this? All factors that you mentioned about Putin keeping Crimea also apply to Donbas, except maybe Black Sea Fleet problem. You didn't underline the difference between Crimea and Donbas. And finally Russia can achieve even more global goals with more territories:
- cutting Ukraine off the sea
- getting border with Transnistria unrecognized republic
Thanks artu, that is exactly what I meant.
And one more thing. Take a look at the picture below. There was a fire in communist party office in Kyiv and it was said the document was found eventually there. Assuming that is true, what do you think the document was doing there?
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted May 02, 2014 09:01 PM |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfqoWVwmP2Q#t=39
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted May 02, 2014 09:11 PM |
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More horrid events
Imo talk is cheap at this point. Russia has its casus belli. Time to move in. This can't be tolerated. A new civil war in Europe is not acceptable and all hopes for a peaceful resolution have been destroyed at this point.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 02, 2014 09:13 PM |
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Aron said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfqoWVwmP2Q#t=39
Aron, that is in Odesa today. By unverified information about 30 dead. From what I heard everything started with separatists attacked football hooligans' demonstration for unity of Ukraine. Police was doing nothing and eventually we have this snow.
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted May 02, 2014 09:18 PM |
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Edited by Aron at 21:39, 02 May 2014.
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Peaceful football hooligans? 
These people were burned inside a building.
Clearly some of your people have become the reactionary fascists everyone warned about. I remember warning a Ukranian girl I knew a little about this before it all started. She brushed it away and supported Maidan. I asked her what about Donetsk? What about Dneipetrovsk? Why aren't there any demonstraitons there? You'll split the country.
Now these violent snows are used by the new oligarchy to further their interests. But regardless of motive they did what they did. Your country now either falls apart through civil war or through invasion and I support the invasion.
Not peace corps. Not waiting for referendums. That map you posted there that is what Russia should take and that's sadly what happens when you elect people without thinking. It's not excuse to say you're hopeless and confused.
20 years from now you will be like the Yugoslavians and asking yourselves why you did this or that. But you did.
The people of Kiev tried to stop it a few nights ago, they tried to beat up the Right Wing forces. But it was to late. I'm not rooting for anyone here, I'm just saying this is what is going to happen and in this case invasion is better.
Also Ihor as some personal advice since ur a fellow forum member. Take out your money from the bank or turn them into Bitcoins or put them into stocks. Stock up on food bro. snow might hit the fan.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 02, 2014 09:38 PM |
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There is no civil war at this time. Don't exaggarate. I wonder why should one ever wish one country to invade another independent country. And don't make early conclusions. Why can't it be normalized in a democratic way?
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted May 02, 2014 09:44 PM |
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I think that there will be a civil war. There have been to many deaths on both sides to ignore. Helicopters and transport aircraft have been downed. Ukraine is in the midst of a geopolitical chessboard which intensified any crisis.
It can't be normalized because your leadership is one of the absolute elite on both sides and tied with respective power structure. Your unions are weak, your communist part has been destroyed and so has your socialist one.
There are no great popular movements, no populist party, no organized effort to provide food and help each other. Your people are extremely poor and this new loan package will make them even poorer.
With the death of women and children in Odessa things can't get better. The only way to save it would be some huge march holding Russiand and Ukranian flags, kicking out all the oligarchs and starting over. But it won't happen. Everyone are to stuck in their own side now.
I'm sorry Ihor.
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 03, 2014 03:18 PM |
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Edited by orzie at 16:22, 03 May 2014.
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Never a country which solves its problems with Russian-like vandal methods will enter the civilized Europe.
Good job Right Sector + ultras. I love the smell of democracy in the morning.
This is so snowing snowing snowing retarded. I have got no other words. The massacre in Odessa has already outnumbered more than twice the victims of South-Eastern conflicts.
And by the way, the army is fighting terrorists on the Southeast. Oh yeah, the terrorists.
people jump from windows
SHOCK CONTENT - burnt people
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This thread is pages long: 
