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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 26, 2014 10:13 PM |
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Zenofex, yes Putin wants more territory. In fact he thinks this should be one single country. He dreams about restoring the USSR and he publicly said that the break up of USSR is the biggest disaster of XX century. And here is why this project of Eurasian Union was started.
If you think that Russia doesn't want more territories just because it is already big, that is a very weak point. Some time ago maybe around 12 years ago, there was a conflict regarding Tuzla island, which is tiny. But Russia wanted to sneak it to control the strait of Kerch. And now we talk about the huge regions.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 26, 2014 10:18 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 22:23, 26 Apr 2014.
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I think the whole talk about restoring the USSR domains is idealism aimed at rallying public support for Putin. Great leaders need great visions.
mr. pokemon aron said:
The problem with the way things went about back then was that wars for resources were quite common and these tend to kill alot of people and bring alot more suffering to the living. Free trade helped to stem this. Socialists in general tend to recognise that this is a bad thing and so want internationalism or preferably no borders at all while nationalists are willing to take the good with the bad.
I think one of the really good things about the Swedish social democrats (at one point, they were actually democratic socialists trying to socialize all corporations - that led to their fall) was that they appreciated free trade and some economic deregulation. They recognized that the funding of the welfare state requires economic growth. Some of the top economists in that party have been relatively pro-free market.
It also doesn't really matter how many seats the FN gets in the EU parliament since in practice, it's the member states that decide over things like Ukrainian integration. All the talk about the EU deciding everything is a load of populist BS. The member states retain massive influence and have vetoes on certain issues.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 27, 2014 08:26 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 08:26, 27 Apr 2014.
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ihor said:
Zenofex, yes Putin wants more territory. In fact he thinks this should be one single country. He dreams about restoring the USSR and he publicly said that the break up of USSR is the biggest disaster of XX century. And here is why this project of Eurasian Union was started.
If you think that Russia doesn't want more territories just because it is already big, that is a very weak point. Some time ago maybe around 12 years ago, there was a conflict regarding Tuzla island, which is tiny. But Russia wanted to sneak it to control the strait of Kerch. And now we talk about the huge regions.
This sounds exactly like the the crap that your current prime minister spews in public. Sorry, I can't take it seriously. The "restoration of USSR", "Russia wants to start World War 3" and such are as real as Tymoshenko's illness. Looks like the propaganda in Ukraine is really doing a fine job if you really believe such nonsenses though.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 27, 2014 08:46 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 08:51, 27 Apr 2014.
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No one needs the USSR as Russia is no less capitalist than the US. And this is confirmed by the impenetrable fact that in Russia major business and the government are merged. In fact, many of us suspect that the decisions of the ruling elite are dictated by the oligarchs directly.
Talks about the restoration of the USSR being a dream of Putin is no more than another bbc.co.uk hystery, aimed to anger and frighten the people who once feared that country. A common enemy is the best way to unite the nations and distract them from their internal problems.
I of course don't deny that the current events on the East of Ukraine are the work of Russia's intelligence agency (lol, finally Russia uses the same methods as the US and the EU). However, I don't clearly understand what targets Putin has there, except slowing down the elections.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 27, 2014 09:11 AM |
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 27, 2014 09:20 AM |
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So? What does that prove? The collapse of the USSR is indeed bad from geopolitical perspective, every university professor working in that field will tell you that. No balance of powers, global political dominance of a single country, unilateral decisions and actions without counter-weight, etc., etc. Does it follow from here that Russia wants to restore it? Not in the slightest. Does it want its sphere of influence back? Absolutely! Does it need more territory? That's laughable.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 27, 2014 01:23 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 13:58, 27 Apr 2014.
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Putin's words are nothing more than words which are aimed to the people who once lived in the Soviet Union. If he really wanted to restore the USSR, he would keep that top secret, with the unsuspecting West. Now he just raises his ratings on the USSR nostalgia. And yeah, he did raise his ratings drastically, especially during the Crimean crisis.
Ihor, despite you seem to be loving your home country, I'm afraid your mindset is totally pro-western, so I don't see a reason to argue with you as you also seem to be biased and will reject anything positive about Russia and the USSR, blindly believing that the Europe is the only truth. You even did not realize my exact point of view on the whole situation - you decided it easier to think just that I fully support anything Putin does on the international arena and totally twist the motives of the West.
To the other forum members, I would recommend not to be so much afraid of the new USSR, but of China and the possible alliance of Russia with it much more. This country is going to be a huge threat in the long run.
About that union Ihor mentioned, I don't see any power in that 'commission' as it is going to be another customs union, with no 'communism' and such crap behind it. Actually, I don't even believe that Kazakhstan would be ever so close to Russia as before. It's even more alien to us than Ukraine. Like I said, Russia is no less capitalist than the most capitalistic countries of this tiny world, and every structure it can form just can be an Eastern analog of the EU (which is currently crumbling, and I suspect that this destiny can reach every association of this world, including that association mentioned). Of course the US would oppose anything reminding the USSR to them, telling that 'they want to resurrect it and we are against'. But who said that the 'resurrection of the USSR' is absolutely to the worst of this world? No, the US speaks for this world, while they should speak for themselves instead. Let's be honest. The US do that too often, sticking their nose to every hole, and everyone knows that.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 27, 2014 01:48 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 13:53, 27 Apr 2014.
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Zenofex said:
So? What does that prove? The collapse of the USSR is indeed bad from geopolitical perspective, every university professor working in that field will tell you that. No balance of powers, global political dominance of a single country, unilateral decisions and actions without counter-weight, etc., etc. Does it follow from here that Russia wants to restore it? Not in the slightest. Does it want its sphere of influence back? Absolutely! Does it need more territory? That's laughable.
Russia of course would not reject some fine pieces of territory, if we speak about the Black Sea, and that's what we can see in the Crimean crisis. However, I repeat again that Russia does not need the burnt Ukraine, it wants to have pro-Russian neighbouring Ukraine rather than Ukraine as a part of the EU.
NATO promised Russia not to expand its borders farther that their German borders, which were actual at that time. Now, NATO's border is on the Polish borders, and surprisingly, Ukraine wants to the EU! Oh, what a coincidence. Terrible Russia must be very terrible to start messing up the situation.
There are no friends in big politics, dudes. The people on Maidan thought that Russia would easily give away its puppet? No way, sir. The people of Maidan didn't think about this at all, because they were followed by their leaders. Two variants - the leaders are instructed by the West (that they will gain help from the West in their very, very risky endeavor) or they are total idiots to think that Russia would not take any action (being busy on the Olympics and running out of cash during it). I don't think there are idiots on the ruling posts there. Idiots (like Sashko Bilij who gives orders to the Rada with a weapon) don't live for long. And yeah, may you rot in peace, dear Sashko.
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 27, 2014 03:17 PM |
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Orzie said:
Putin's words are nothing more than words which are aimed to the people who once lived in the Soviet Union. If he really wanted to restore the USSR, he would keep that top secret, with the unsuspecting West.
Thats just ridiculous. There is no need to keep something secret to the public.
Otherwise, intelligence services would know about such a thing.
Secret agreements only work if there is an immediate threat. even then, NATO or all the other military alliances can be read about in wikipedia. Even the supposed USSR 2.0 is public.
Actually, a USSR like union with russia would make the world a better place. The EU then would have a competitor an that would produce a medium for improvement.
Quote:
No, the US speaks for this world, while they should speak for themselves instead. Let's be honest. The US do that too often, sticking their nose to every hole, and everyone knows that.
Its not a problem when they criticize and condemn wrong behavior, its the hypocrisy behind those words and actiomns that is bothersome.
People should condemn the US on its crimes and wrongdoings, not because it meddles with the outside world.
Few would agree than the invasion of afghanistan was a good thing but whether or not nobody should have reacted to bring down those taliban is alot more vague and reprehensible.
This begs the question, should there be a world police?
I would not disagree with the idea of regimes such as that of bellorussia, afghanistan and so on need to be brought down or changed, but not through war.
But as it stands, the world is more ready to go back to the dark ages than spread the scientific enlightenmed to other places. Places such as afghanistan, much of africa nd so on still live in the 12th century.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 27, 2014 03:59 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 16:00, 27 Apr 2014.
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A world police is great, as long as its built upon the right values and ambitions. A powerful but democratic world police will inspire other government adminstrations to pursue the same path. As a result, following the fall of the Soviet Union, the world has become a much more free and prosperous place. It is of vital importance that the US stance as a world police is preserved for otherwise, governments will end up getting their inspiration from authoritarian Russia and China instead.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 27, 2014 04:45 PM |
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seraphim said:
Thats just ridiculous. There is no need to keep something secret to the public.
Otherwise, intelligence services would know about such a thing.
Secret agreements only work if there is an immediate threat. even then, NATO or all the other military alliances can be read about in wikipedia. Even the supposed USSR 2.0 is public.
Actually, a USSR like union with russia would make the world a better place. The EU then would have a competitor an that would produce a medium for improvement.
All I really wanted to say that there will be no such country as the USSR anymore and everyone should realize that. Russia in its current state is incapable of bearing the flag of communism/socialism/whatever, it's just an utopia.
There can be another union with whatever mottos and targets (and I don't think that the bipolar structure of the world would be really better), but no more USSR.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 27, 2014 04:53 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 16:54, 27 Apr 2014.
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I don't think anybody thinks that socialism will be ressurected. Putin's idealism seems to be based on conservatism and nationalism. Perhaps also on the Chinese authortarian technocracy that kinda worries me. So far, it's been quite effective in providing increased economic growth and prosperity. That model, rather than democracy, could inspire other governments. Especialy in a time when the sluggish democratic adminstration of the US and EU isn't performing good enough and seems less attractive.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Zenofex
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Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 27, 2014 06:12 PM |
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xerox said:
A world police is great, as long as its built upon the right values and ambitions. A powerful but democratic world police will inspire other government adminstrations to pursue the same path. As a result, following the fall of the Soviet Union, the world has become a much more free and prosperous place. It is of vital importance that the US stance as a world police is preserved for otherwise, governments will end up getting their inspiration from authoritarian Russia and China instead.
You might want to speak with the relatives of the half a million dead Iraqis and hundreds of thousands dead Afghans about how safe and secure the world has become after the collapse of the USSR. The US supports plenty of dictatorships, some of which make Russia look like freedom's paradise. And lastly, the US is not the world's policeman, nor it aims to be - everything which it has ever done was in favour of its own interests and partially the interests of its allies. But of course, if you believe that the US bombards other countries to bring them democracy, you can ignore the above and return to the fairy kingdom.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 27, 2014 07:36 PM |
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No, I don't believe the US cares much for democracy when it comes to its strategic interests. It's role as a world police benefits democracy anyway, because the most powerful state in the world is a democracy.
More people died in the proxy conflicts of the Cold War than in Iraq and Afghaniatan. I also support those wars. The Iraq War, in particular, went flawless but the US was terrible at dealing with the consequences (as usual, it seems). I do think the long-term prospects of Iraq and Afghanistan are better off now though and the political elections in those countries seems to work out fine.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 27, 2014 07:43 PM |
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You're apparently living in a different world. The US is withdrawing from both countries because it will bankrupt it stays there, leaving them in a state of civil war. The "democracy" in Iraq and Afghanistan doesn't exist outside of the official Western media, nor it has any chance to survive. The US indeed couldn't deal with the consequences in these regions because it neither understands them, nor it cares about them. Wars are expensive and no war is started in the name of justice (or "policing the world") - maybe some day that will sink in your head too.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 27, 2014 07:56 PM |
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Edited by ihor at 20:00, 27 Apr 2014.
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Zenofex, have you seen those videos, have you seen how Putin says that USSR and Russia is actually the same country? Have you seen how he regrets that USSR broke up? Can't you make a logical conclusion?
Zenofex said:
Does it need more territory? That's laughable.
Stop being stubborn, Russia has already annexed Crimea! And I am not laughing about that, are you?
Orzie said:
so I don't see a reason to argue with you as you also seem to be biased and will reject anything positive about Russia and the USSR, blindly believing that the Europe is the only truth. You even did not realize my exact point of view on the whole situation - you decided it easier to think just that I fully support anything Putin does on the international arena and totally twist the motives of the West.
Have I told you something or asked you? You don't see a reason, then don't write, I am fine with that. And you are wrong, I never said that I think you fully support Putin, I remember clearly what you posted. I don't actually care if you support Putin or not, but I heard what you said about annexation of Crimea, about Maidan, about separatists. That gave me all the needed information about your opinion and I am not going to convince you.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 27, 2014 08:02 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 20:04, 27 Apr 2014.
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So muuuuuuh hostility in your posts Zenofex...
The US is leaving Iraq and partly Afghanistan because it doesn't need to be there. Iraq has some sectarian violence problems but I don't really see the huge threat to its democracy, that you describe. In Afghanistan, an internal coup is more likely than a Taliban takeover, but probably not since the US have actually used clever methods there to reduce sectarian tensions in its government (which is the greatest threat to stability in these countries) by supporting an ethnically mixed administration. Hamid Karzais government is also being overthrown in fair, democratic ways as we speak.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 28, 2014 07:57 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 07:58, 28 Apr 2014.
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Quote:
Zenofex, have you seen those videos, have you seen how Putin says that USSR and Russia is actually the same country? Have you seen how he regrets that USSR broke up? Can't you make a logical conclusion?
Yes. The logical conclusion is that he's trying to boost his country's morale. And he's succeeding. There's no chance in hell that Russia will try to re-establish the USSR, a demonized entity based on an ideology opposite to everything which Putin's government stands for, except for the state control over everything.
Quote:
Stop being stubborn, Russia has already annexed Crimea! And I am not laughing about that, are you?
Would you stop repeating that? I already asked a question and nobody answered - would Russia have any interest in annexing Crimea without the events on the Maidan and the aftermath? If you truly believe that it just waited for the right excuse, you have really soaked too much propaganda. I'm going to repeat it once again - I do not support Russia's actions, I'm against the daft propaganda explanation for them.
@xerox, you're parroting nonsense as usual. No point in replying, just check Iraq and Afghanistan after 2-3 years. If they are the democratic countries that inhabit your head then, maybe we'll talk.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 28, 2014 09:12 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 09:14, 28 Apr 2014.
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Well, Russia has an interest in Crimea and the passage to the Black Sea, it would not pay for its navy base there otherwise. 
However, without the Maidan Russian forces would never enter Ukraine. When rebellions/revolts happen, a foreign intervention is a common thing.
About Donetsk and other East regions of Ukraine - no, Russia does not have a particular interest in them, but if Ukraine loses them, it will be gone forever. Those regions are saturated by factories, industry and such things. That can mean something to good ol' Putin.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 28, 2014 09:48 AM |
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Edited by ihor at 09:49, 28 Apr 2014.
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@Zenofex
Ahh, you get it wrong. When we talk about restoration of the USSR, it doesn't necessary have to be the same old USSR. Putin regrets the USSR broke up, right? And he would like to build another superpower state. Obviously it won't be a communist regime, but Putin definitely wants to see some more territories in this new state. That's not laughable. Let's return to Crimea... Do you know Putin has different options what to do with Crimea. For example he could leave this as an independent state, just like he did with Abhazia and South Osetia. Or the other option is to join Crimea to Russian Federation, what he actually have chosen. Do you know why? I'll tell you why. Because he thinks that Crimea is a Russian territory (iskonno russkaya zemlya). And he thinks the same about the eastern regions. During his latest interview he even named south of Ukraine as Novorossiya, exactly how it was during Russian empire 200 years ago. If we go into history, take a look how Ukraine was divided between Russian empire and Austro-Hungary at the beginning of XX century:
It's funny that Zhirinovsky suggested to divide Ukraine now between Russia, Poland, Hungary and Romania. I now he's a clown and we shouldn't take that serious, but there is a phrase: What Putin keeps in mind, Zhirinovsky says out loud. You know he were talking about returning Crimea to Russia for many years.
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