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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted March 23, 2016 11:55 PM |
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alcibiades said:
There are two sides to the problem. One is the number of school in itself - which causes problems with random skill system and random spells in guilds (low chance of getting the spells you want). That can be coped with like Stevie describes.
The main problem with the 7-school system as I see it is that you don't get a significant difference between the schools. That was partially a conscious (and imo. catastrophic!) game design choice, but it does get significantly harder to find a strong profile for each school when you have that many.
On the bottom line, however, the H7 system fails horribly for me, not because of the number of schools, but because at least 6 of the schools are virtually identical in what they can, effectively rendering the whole concept of schools obsolete and thus failing by the very nature of how the schools are designed.
Valen-Teen said:
What should they do with dragon-worship?
Just make Elemental (earth/fire/air/water), Light, Dark and Prime schools?
That would be one solution.
Another would be creating fewer schools, that each span a set of elements, so that you have each element present in several of the schools and each school gives access to several elements (with possibilities for specialization). That could be something like:
Destruction: Fire, Air, Dark (direct damage spells)
Creation: Water, Earth, Light (healing and summoning effects)
Transformation: Fire, Earth, Light (buffs and debuffs)
Illusion: Water, Air, Dark (mind effects)
This is just an example, the distribution could well be different, but point is there are several ways to incorporate the 7 elements into a 4-school scheme. I haven't included Prime here, Prime could be a special group of spells that work with all schools.
100% agree with the post above. Going for 7 Magic Schools is just an unnecessary hurdle. Not saying that it can't work, but a couple less would help so much.
It's also worth mentioning that 7 elements do not necessarily require 7 Magic Schools. Each spell has an element attach to it, but it belongs to a certain Magic School. Said Magic Schools can be designed around an idea, philosophy or whatever you want to have - see Alci's idea above, H5 schools (Light/Dark/Destructive/Summoning), H4's approach (Life/Death/Order/Nature/Chaos)...the only limit is your imagination.
Or making the game without thinking how the Magic system will interact with the rest of the game (Skills, Magic Guilds, Adventure Map, etc...). Rocket science! 
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted March 24, 2016 12:32 AM |
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted March 24, 2016 12:36 AM |
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EnergyZ said:
Hm, what do you think, are the might skills also a problem? Is there something that could/should be changed?
I firmly believe that in order to make Magic Heroes and Might Heroes balanced between eachother, you need to present each type with about as many meaningful choices as the other. So when fleshing out the number of skills that are interesting from a Magic point of view, you need about the same number of Might skills and vice versa. Note that this should explicitely exclude Adventure Map skills, which should fall in neither category. The difference would lie in Perks for those Adventure Map skills.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted March 24, 2016 06:19 AM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 07:57, 24 Mar 2016.
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Stevie said:
A system with 7 magic schools where the player can choose to exclude 2 and out of the 5 left emphasize the drop chance of 2 is what I would've considered a start. You'd have a meaningful choice to make that gives the player some control over which magic schools he'd be able to learn. Of course, you'd still have to think how you enable the hero to learn skills since they go hand in hand, but that shouldn't be too big of a deal.
It's more than manageable and you don't lose the diversity. Win-win, competent developers could probably come up with something even better.
ChrisD1 said:
I believe due to the many magic schools,the guilds should have 2 forbidden schools per faction. The hero will still be able to learn any spell if he/she visits another town. Also for the 2 forbidden schools,no perks or stuff like that in his/her wheel.
If any hero can learn any spell from any school just as good,and the racial applies to every creature we might as well have only one faction -.- (can't stress that enough you hodge-podgists!!!!)
Here it goes with the 2 forbidden ones.
Sylvan: Fire, Dark (save the forests)
Inferno: Water, Light
Dungeon: Light, Air (no lighting bolts in a cave,not stealthy)
Haven: Dark, Earth
Stronghold: Light, Prime
Sanctuary: Fire, Earth
Necropolis: Light, Fire (dead,cold,no fire)
Academy: -
Foretress: Air, Earth
So you like that earth magic? Better not play sanctuary or haven or foretress.
This list and system was the easiest and cheapest to implement. All it needed was more diverse wheels in classes,and two forbidden schools instead of one in every guild. I didn't mind the leveling up system, if only the classes were more distinct. No need for "controlled randomness". There is no such thing anyway,it s an illusion,a handicap. It was fun to be honest though.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 24, 2016 08:06 AM |
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ChrisD1 said:
No need for "controlled randomness". There is no such thing anyway,it s an illusion,a handicap.
Disagree, that is a matter of math and implementation. You can make it work in a meaningful way if you know what you're doing.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 24, 2016 08:09 AM |
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Might skills? Sure.
War Cries are silly.
I mean, they cost nothing - but even might heroes have points in power and spirit so they CAN cast spells.
Now either War Cries are piss poor, then THEY are a waste of time and skill points, might heroes being better off with casting spells.
Or they are good (and you will prefer them over spells) - in that case they kill all balance because they cost nothing and a might's point in power and spirit are wasted.
War Cries have been used in H5 as the Stronghold's way of casting spells, with a building like a mage guild and hero abilities to dampen opponent's magic skills which made sense. Having them in addition to spells and without cost is silly.
Anyway, the whole system is ill-conceived.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted March 24, 2016 08:53 AM |
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Elvin a few notes on spells.
Ice bolt: This needs to be the most damaging water spell. It should be stronger than circle of frost and tsunami. Why make it obsolete?
Single target damaging spells need to be more powerful than those area ones.
(So tsunami and frost ring should get a nerf in damage if the bolt does not get a bonus)
Retribution: Nerf and attacking ranged units should not get damage!!
Fire Bolt/Fire Ball/Armaggeddon: Again fix the numbers so the single target spell has a reason to be cast except mana cost.
Inner Fire: Maybe a nerf? Or make it like sacrifice. You lose a portion of your stack to get that super damage bonus it gives.
Regeneration: Curse the one who suggested resurrection for this spell!!!! It's not gonna change tier unfortunately..
As for the warcries I find them quite balanced. They are not that strong and they do require to spend points on them. In theory the do suck. While playing they don't. There is a big difference.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 24, 2016 09:19 AM |
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You don't understand the problem, Chris. They are something to circumvent the necessity to spend Mana on casting things you need a primary skill attribute for. If they are actually good, they are, for example for a Haven might hero a valid alternative to go into Light Magic - in fact they are even better in that case because 1) you don't need to build the mage guild (or acquire spells); 2) you can cast them over the whole battle (you won't run out of mana); 3) You have full control over what you get (you know it when picking the skill).
So EITHER they are completely worthless (because they have no effect) OR they are too powerful because they circumvent the necessarily weak magic disposition of might heroes.
There can be no middleground here; if they offer useful active abilities - why invest in spells you may not be able to cast proficiently and repeatedly?
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Pim18
Known Hero
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posted March 24, 2016 09:24 AM |
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To be honest the might vs magic aspect was something that was never really implemented well(in my experience at least). In Heroes 3 you could let Might Heroes buy spellbooks which was something I often did because the added benefit of spells was just bigger then whatever benefit that hero had(often certain creatures would be stronger or they would specialize in a skill). I like how in Heroes 4 you had stronghold with their Might only heroes but Heroes 4 actually had your heroes compete into battles so the buff that Might heroes were given was more useful then it was in previous games.
I think that they should try to implement something similiar to that if you really want to balance Might and Magic out. Heroes 5 warcries can work but they should have been balanced better. They were either overpowered or really weak(again in my experience). Perhaps they can implement something like skills that give Might Heroes a morale boost or luck boost or something?
Just thinking out loud here
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 24, 2016 09:42 AM |
bonus applied by Brukernavn on 01 Apr 2016. |
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You might say the following:
In Heroes you have 4 primary stats: 2 are for passive "abilities" while 2 are for active ones (Attack and Defense grant a passive combat advantage, while Power and Knowledge grant the means for Heroes's active abilities to use and influence).
Might heroes have a passive advantage in that their creatures do more and suffer less damage. This is supported by "might skills" that give more passive advantages (Offense, Defense, Leadership).
The flip side of the coin is that their active abilities should be weak, because that's the only way magic heroes can get even with them (that and somewhat differently working Magic skills/abilities).
The only sensible cost-free skill for active abilities in general for Might heroes would be a skill I would name Combat (as in H4) which would give the hero attack (which wasn't default - magic heroes don't need a hro attack (and shouldn't have one), because they cast damage spells for that purpose plus assorted abilities they way we had them in H5 (stuff lihe Excrutiating Strike and so on).
For the rest, a might hero must necessarily spend mana.
Keep in mind, by the way, that in H5 factions had just one tailor-made hero-type.
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Pim18
Known Hero
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posted March 24, 2016 09:48 AM |
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That is pretty much how it works and it should work yeah.
I was just thinking how to make the Might heroes more involved, as in give them active abilities that would make them more fun to play.(I really should delve more into the gameplay aspects of the series.)
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted March 24, 2016 09:57 AM |
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To me they are more fun to play especially on a hard map because you have only your creatures and nothing else to help you whereas the magic heroes can always find some exploit with a spell.
Last time I saved myself from huge losses by casting heal on my dead single unit. This can be done with might heroes also but how many times will you get away with it? I mean level 18 and still 30 mana ..
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Pim18
Known Hero
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posted March 24, 2016 09:59 AM |
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It is a matter of preference I guess.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted March 24, 2016 10:09 AM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 10:13, 24 Mar 2016.
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JollyJoker said:
So EITHER they are completely worthless (because they have no effect) OR they are too powerful because they circumvent the necessarily weak magic disposition of might heroes.
There can be no middleground here; if they offer useful active abilities - why invest in spells you may not be able to cast proficiently and repeatedly?
And that s where we disagree. I believe there is middle ground. And it is stepped on.
The warcries do give some nice buffs for free but they are in the middle from nothing to the spells that do the same thing with them (haste,stone skin etc).
Yes they are free if you invest points on them,and they last only one round. There's the downside. Stone skin/inner fire/haste etc last for 3 rounds. But they cost and they don't affect your whole army.
Warcries:
+No cost
+whole army
-last only one round
-stay the same in numbers
Spells:
+duration
+get better with magic stat
-cost
-you can't always buff,since there are debuffs and daging soells to choose.
You may spam open fire for the rest of the combat with no cost,but you can spam storm arrows every 3 rounds but that duration will cost you,but in the meantime you may throw a lightinig or two.
Have u played the current(1.7) game Jollyjoker?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 24, 2016 10:20 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
Might skills? Sure.
War Cries are silly.
I mean, they cost nothing - but even might heroes have points in power and spirit so they CAN cast spells.
Now either War Cries are piss poor, then THEY are a waste of time and skill points, might heroes being better off with casting spells.
Or they are good (and you will prefer them over spells) - in that case they kill all balance because they cost nothing and a might's point in power and spirit are wasted.
War Cries have been used in H5 as the Stronghold's way of casting spells, with a building like a mage guild and hero abilities to dampen opponent's magic skills which made sense. Having them in addition to spells and without cost is silly.
Anyway, the whole system is ill-conceived.
YES, this is an important point that we need to emphasize more! War Cries as a general might feature is a completely destructive feature for the whole idea of might/magic separation. Like you say, it worked in H5 because it was unique for Stronghold - that was cut off from normal magic - but its current form, it's a disaster.
If one wants to have something that is different from spell and which focuses on might heroes - and I'm for this idea - then it should focus on the hero direct attack. I.e. have skills that improve hero direct attacks - give it ranged effects, give it more damage, give it special properties like armor piercing or stunning effects - and also have a hero attribute like Stamina that controls how many times the hero can do direct attacks. That will make sense, because it means the might hero can do something the magic hero can't do, but on the other hand also is different from what the magic hero can do. Plus it will potentially remove some of the horrible immersion-breaking features for the hero direct attack as it was in H5, where you'd have your knight on his horse gallop through the castle walls and attack a unit hiding inside, which made zero sense.
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What will happen now?
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Articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted March 24, 2016 10:21 AM |
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I have an idea. So, it is still early but:
1. Defense Value can increase the defense of units for both might and magic heroes.
2. Spirit can work for both Magic and Might heroes and warcries can also use spirit points to be cast by might heroes and might heroes can learn only basic spells. Unless of course, they have the paragon skill that allows them to learn better spells, but a might hero IMHO should never be able to learn level 5 spells (i would go as far as to say not even level 4 spells). So If Warcries are the "spells" of the might heroes, but might heroes have less overall spirit than magic heroes, the warcries can be stronger than some magic but also used more strategically.
3. Might heroes should increase the attack of all melee units while Magic heroes with their spell power should increase the attack of all magic damage dealing units, such as medusae and Druids etc. This way, both classes can have different boosts to units. Might heroes will still have the edge because most units deal might damage, but magic users can still help some of their own units as well in a lesser extent.
4. Might heroes could potentialy get a skill that allows them to attack twice. Or the skill form heroes V and VI that the hero attacked with a specific unit.
5. Or, and this is hypothetical, Might heroes could learn only enhancing spells and not offensive ones so that they focus more on their units.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted March 24, 2016 10:28 AM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 10:32, 24 Mar 2016.
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It s like i didn't post a thing..
Stamina to might heroes? So they can be more like magic ones? You will essentially cast different spells..
Warcries are hindered enough for the fact that they are cost free. It s middle ground. Can u not exaggerate? It s getting silly.
Articun, doesn't defence and spirit affect both magic and might heroes already?
Also the magic units are not affected by heroes' magic?(like in h6)???
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 24, 2016 10:31 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 10:32, 24 Mar 2016.
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Some people have more experience, why don't you trust them? I for one agree with a lot of their insight because I got to test things for myself and it's exactly as they say.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted March 24, 2016 10:36 AM |
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Stevie said:
Some people have more experience, why don't you trust them? I for one agree with a lot of their insight because I got to test things for myself and it's exactly as they say.
i don't deny that experience and i do expect to lean on that in other matters (numbers etc).
As a casual player though i find there is no middle ground with those persons and that their "experience" gets to a point of perfectioninsm that is not always needed.
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Articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted March 24, 2016 10:42 AM |
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TBH i haven't had the time to enter so deep into the game mechanics yet. What i said, are just ideas i have while following the comments here. I agree that warcries are like spells for might heroes and so, yeah they need to have some impact on how they are cast. For example, a warcry that increases the attack and luck of all units or of one unit is like inner fire. But the warcry is free. I don't see that as fair.
I don't know how the stats affect different units, maybe someone here can enlighten us more on that, because it interests me.
Finally, the lack of spellcasting units is a great loss, because this is how might heroes had a chance at casting some spells in previous games.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
