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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 07, 2015 05:48 PM |
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Because every one who played haven on h5,used mainly dark magic -.-
I know it's "a restriction" and those suck at first glance, but in game,as far as forbidden schools go, its impact is near zero.after playing sylvan mostly, i m not annoyed at all about not using fire magic for example. That is subjective of course. but the general idea (that some restrictions aren't as bad as they seem in theory) is quite "true".
Plus it gives faction magic heroes a distinct flavor.
If anyone could cast anything,there would be one less difference between them.
The idea of an elf,who can't burn or curse is way more interesting gameplay wise. You'd have to make do with what you got (blessings etc) and get more creative. How's that for theory?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 07, 2015 05:49 PM |
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You can try to talk sense it as much as you like, but you seem to forget that it's only the lore and the lore alone that is responsible for the division of a meagre 56 spells onto an opulent 7 magic schools. This would be like having 6 different hero classes per faction, but for some reason you could only play 4 of them, the rest being unavailable for some arbitrary reason.
It is stupid.
And that's just one example.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted October 07, 2015 05:54 PM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 17:55, 07 Oct 2015.
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ChrisD1 said:
Because every one who played haven on h5,used mainly dark magic -.-
I know it's "a restriction" and those suck at first glance, but in game,as far as forbidden schools go, its impact is near zero.after playing sylvan mostly, i m not annoyed at all about not using fire magic for example. That is subjective of course. but the general idea (that some restrictions aren't as bad as they seem in theory) is quite "true".
High-level Dark Magic spells like Frenzy or Puppet Master are always useful. Without them, Freyda wouldn't be able to beat King Tolghar in the final campaign mission of HoF. So yeah, Dark Magic, especially with Fallen Knight, a very nice combo I must say. 
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 07, 2015 06:01 PM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 18:08, 07 Oct 2015.
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We already know sense does not work in this forum.
Lore never dictated the number of spells. The idea is pretty good and i did talk some good sense. And i m standing by that. If implemented correctly(no dark/fire spells in a sylvan magic guild,so there is more room for the other 5 schools,and a 5 level guild,or even a 6 level one) it could lead to diverse and interesting results about magic heroes in general.
Your example wasn't a successful one.
Pawek_13 said:
..
Interesting indeed and also very situational. Waging a war against the lore for such small details is useless.
Also our opinions are both subjective. I like these little rules and restrictions,you don't. Both of is can find merits for these situations.
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PROJ
Known Hero
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posted October 07, 2015 06:04 PM |
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Edited by PROJ at 18:06, 07 Oct 2015.
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JollyJoker said:
You can try to talk sense it as much as you like, but you seem to forget that it's only the lore and the lore alone that is responsible for the division of a meagre 56 spells onto an opulent 7 magic schools. This would be like having 6 different hero classes per faction, but for some reason you could only play 4 of them, the rest being unavailable for some arbitrary reason.
It is stupid.
And that's just one example.
It's not necessarily stupid. They've just created more spell schools that are a little more homogenized with some distinct flavor to each rather than having less, more wildly disparate schools. They all for the most part have varying degrees of damage, CC, and damage mitigation. Because of that, it's not super important that haven doesn't get dark magic, for example (although if you get a haven hero with a different faction town you can still learn it, of course). It's not worse (depending on how it's implemented), it's just different. I'm personally glad they don't have spells like summon phoenix or puppet master that cause really huge power swings based on what shows up in your guild.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted October 07, 2015 06:25 PM |
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Oh, fun fact - Haven heroes can learn Dark Maic spells in Heroes VII. A decision against the lore? How could that be?  #gameruined
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The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted October 07, 2015 07:29 PM |
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Pawek_13 said:
Oh, fun fact - Haven heroes can learn Dark Maic spells in Heroes VII. A decision against the lore? How could that be? #gameruined
I have even seen a spell casting barbarian!!! What is this madness?? 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 07, 2015 08:21 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
We already know sense does not work in this forum.
Lore never dictated the number of spells. The idea is pretty good and i did talk some good sense. And i m standing by that. If implemented correctly(no dark/fire spells in a sylvan magic guild,so there is more room for the other 5 schools,and a 5 level guild,or even a 6 level one) it could lead to diverse and interesting results about magic heroes in general.
Your example wasn't a successful one.
What the hell are you talking about? There is no "If" here. I talk about Haven Heroes NOT being able to record Dark spells in their spell book (which is something different than the Mage Guild not delivering Dark spells), and Haven Magic Guild delivering Water and Warth spells just like every other school, except that no Haven hero can get proficient with them. That's logical?
PROJ said:
It's not necessarily stupid. They've just created more spell schools that are a little more homogenized with some distinct flavor to each rather than having less, more wildly disparate schools. They all for the most part have varying degrees of damage, CC, and damage mitigation. Because of that, it's not super important that haven doesn't get dark magic, for example (although if you get a haven hero with a different faction town you can still learn it, of course). It's not worse (depending on how it's implemented), it's just different. I'm personally glad they don't have spells like summon phoenix or puppet master that cause really huge power swings based on what shows up in your guild.
Look, last time I checked Haven heroes could NOT learn Dark spells - if that changed they did it with the last patch - that is STILL no explanation why your mage guild can have Earth and Water spells - you can even pick those - but your heroes ... well.
That doesn't make sense, and no matter what you say, it's looking for excuses. It doesn't make any sense at all.
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malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
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posted October 07, 2015 08:31 PM |
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Edited by malax83 at 20:31, 07 Oct 2015.
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MadDemiurg said:
From the core TBS mechanics standpoint, I agree that H7 is pretty solid compared to other heroes titles, I think cover and flanking add more depth to the tactical combat.
 ARE YOU SERIOUS ..?
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PROJ
Known Hero
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posted October 07, 2015 08:34 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
That doesn't make sense, and no matter what you say, it's looking for excuses. It doesn't make any sense at all.
It doesn't have to make sense. It's a game mechanic. Game mechanics don't have to conform to some arbitrary guidelines, although sometimes it helps (and sometimes it doesn't). In this case, it means that haven is a faction that is narrowly focused in terms of a few schools. Having, for example, earth spells pop up in the mage guild allows haven to use them in certain circumstances if they have to, or it allows a non-haven hero to pick them up (like a sylvan hero) in their mage guild. Once again, these mechanics are not necessarily bad if done properly, you just don't like them (which is subjective). Making sense or not has nothing to do with it.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted October 07, 2015 08:39 PM |
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PROJ said:
Once again, these mechanics are not necessarily bad if done properly, you just don't like them (which is subjective).
And devs, who like this feature, have an objective opinion?
And you know who else has a subjective opinion? My mom.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted October 07, 2015 08:43 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
And you know who else has a subjective opinion? My mom.
Do you know what is her opinion on that matter? 
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted October 07, 2015 08:45 PM |
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Pawek_13 said:
EnergyZ said:
And you know who else has a subjective opinion? My mom.
Do you know what is her opinion on that matter?
Her opinion? Does not care. Hence subjective. As is the devs' opinion.
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PROJ
Known Hero
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posted October 07, 2015 08:50 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
PROJ said:
Once again, these mechanics are not necessarily bad if done properly, you just don't like them (which is subjective).
And devs, who like this feature, have an objective opinion?
No, but I'm arguing against the fact that these are senseless or stupid design decisions. They work well as game mechanics, and the people here have failed to make a good argument as to why they fail as such.
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MadDemiurg
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 07, 2015 09:56 PM |
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malax83 said:
MadDemiurg said:
From the core TBS mechanics standpoint, I agree that H7 is pretty solid compared to other heroes titles, I think cover and flanking add more depth to the tactical combat.
[url=https://youtu.be/ztVMib1T4T4]ARE YOU SERIOUS ..?[/url]
I am. They might be poorly implemented, but it's better than nothing. Previous heroes titles mainly relied on spells and creature abilities to make tactical combat more interesting (which I don't consider "core" mechanics). If you count that out, the ruleset is very primitive. H7 falls short in terms of spell and creature design compared to h5 (and h6 in case of creature design), but these can potentially be improved upon as it isn't set in stone. Same with balance - currently in h7 its pretty bad, which harms the diversity of viable tactics, but it can be fixed.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted October 07, 2015 10:15 PM |
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There are different approaches to add more tactical diversity. For example, using the weather or the obstacles on the field could also add in some bonus. Just saying that flanking, if needed, could've been reserved for some units, not all of them. For really, flanking just sounds making sneak-attacks from behind; as if it was that hard to watch where the enemy is going and turn around.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 07, 2015 10:32 PM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 22:33, 07 Oct 2015.
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JollyJoker said:
Look, last time I checked Haven heroes could NOT learn Dark spells - if that changed they did it with the last patch - that is STILL no explanation why your mage guild can have Earth and Water spells - you can even pick those - but your heroes ... well.
That doesn't make sense, and no matter what you say, it's looking for excuses. It doesn't make any sense at all.
What the hell are you talking about? There is no "If" here! proj just proved that haven heroes can cast dark magic spells. also i was playing minute ago and my sylvan heroes could learn and cast dark and fire spells.what else do you want?? like seriously? do you want EVERY hero having access to EVERY master rank of magic schools? for what? the bonus from knowledge 3 of a tier 4 spell?for the increased spell power? COME ON!
first you complain that there are spells heroes can't learn. then you are proved otherwise and now you complain that heroes might not be able to be proficient at certain spells that they now do learn. -.-
i will repeat myself. no logic here.
about flanking, indeed, besides poor implementation the only argument i saw against flanking was "units dancing around each other". which got old by the way. if someone wants to believe this game is bad then what is he doing here? we get it you don't like it, it's bad.anything else to add? no? ok bye now! there are a zillion hate threads here about the game, go there! gee!
malax3, great argument. bravo.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted October 07, 2015 10:35 PM |
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Still think that, in this flanking subject, troops could be told which direction to face and that direction would be permanent until told otherwise. That way, you can better plan and sacrifice your back to weaker units, for example, in prior to defend frontally against an upcoming stronger hazard, also taking into account the possibility to use obstacle to cover your back. The usual fight to get to the back would mostly happen on battles with few stacks or 1 vs 1 stack.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 07, 2015 10:40 PM |
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PandaTar said:
Still think that, in this flanking subject, troops could be told which direction to face and that direction would be permanent until told otherwise. That way, you can better plan and sacrifice your back to weaker units, for example, in prior to defend frontally against an upcoming stronger hazard, also taking into account the possibility to use obstacle to cover your back. The usual fight to get to the back would mostly happen on battles with few stacks or 1 vs 1 stack.
thank you
like really! a usefull suggestion! how about we forward that? who knows...
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted October 07, 2015 10:42 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
about flanking, indeed, besides poor implementation the only argument i saw against flanking was "units dancing around each other". which got old by the way. if someone wants to believe this game is bad then what is he doing here? we get it you don't like it, it's bad.anything else to add? no? ok bye now! there are a zillion hate threads here about the game, go there! gee!
malax3, great argument. bravo.
Not only that, but there are no ways to counter it. Besides the creature abilities or hero abilities. One'd hope that at least by having a creature defend to stop such flanking.
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