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Moritzbradtke
Known Hero
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posted May 02, 2016 07:51 PM |
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Hey, are People still using diplomacy? maybe i just dont know how to use it but it seems pretty useless in an usual game session, the Prices are damn high, do u think it should be improved or is it fine as it is? because i think it is useless atm
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted May 02, 2016 08:18 PM |
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Moritzbradtke said:
Hey, are People still using diplomacy? maybe i just dont know how to use it but it seems pretty useless in an usual game session, the Prices are damn high, do u think it should be improved or is it fine as it is? because i think it is useless atm
it is absolutely fine as it is. the point if diplomacy is not always getting the army but getting rid off that army without fighting it. and the perks of this skill are not too bad.
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Moritzbradtke
Known Hero
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posted May 02, 2016 09:17 PM |
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so u want to skill it to get rid of an army? why should u do that? im not even sure if u can "get rid of it" so easy, maybe there is an Option to let an army run away when the skill procs, that's possible, idk but would u really spend Points to skill the skill up for that?
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted May 02, 2016 10:30 PM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 22:35, 02 May 2016.
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diplomacy is here to help with neutral armies whether they join you or see you more peacefully. and you have the choice to "let them go" when the skill procs.
and yes along with the perks i would invest in a 30% chance to avoid some battles or make some troops join me. it was a bigger percentage before they fixed it and it was OP.
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Articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted May 03, 2016 12:09 AM |
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What i do not understand is why the two options merged...
In previous games, if your army was too strong, there was a chance for the neutrals to "Cower in fear" and you could choose to let them go or fight them. Both options gave you expirience, with the fighting giving you more. But you could avoid unnescessary battles, time and loosing troops.
In heroes VII, the only way for an enemy army to be "Let go" is if they will join you, which happens rarely.
I also think that the diplomacy should be slightly increase, since the new prices for units to join you are increadibly high and the skill does not trigger much.
Also, i would really like to see the "Cower in Fear" option happening again, but whom do i tell that in order to happen?
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted May 03, 2016 12:11 AM |
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Wait, there is no option to avoid the battle, only to let the creatures join you?
Doesn't seem practical. Were there any significant losses in quick battles (to let the AI battle the enemies)?
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Articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted May 03, 2016 12:15 AM |
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When you see a neutral enemy you always have to battle them. The only way not to battle them is if they want to join you. If they want to join you, you can acceot them, let them go or Fight them. It is up to you.
But without the diplomacy and the neutral army wanting to join you, there is no way to avoid the battle.
Also AI in quick combat is really stupid. My guess is that it makes all units move forward, doesn't use spells or abilities and in general the losses are much more than if you play the battle.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted May 03, 2016 12:22 AM |
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Articun said:
When you see a neutral enemy you always have to battle them. The only way not to battle them is if they want to join you. If they want to join you, you can acceot them, let them go or Fight them. It is up to you.
But without the diplomacy and the neutral army wanting to join you, there is no way to avoid the battle.
Also AI in quick combat is really stupid. My guess is that it makes all units move forward, doesn't use spells or abilities and in general the losses are much more than if you play the battle.
and that's where diplomacy's worth is. 30% to avoid a battle by either let them go or recruit them. where is the problem exactly?????? because in old games some neutrals used to go away? -.-
and the gold cost although high it's fine. else it would be way too easy.
as for the quick combat, well i don't entirely agree that the AI should be tweaked for a quick combat. quick combats are for when you have a huuuuge army and you are bored to battle because you know you ll win.
before you gather such an army where 5-10 losses wouldn't be of an impact, best to play manually.
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Articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted May 03, 2016 12:32 AM |
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I do not agree. When you have a very big map, like a campaign and you don't want to play all combats, this comes in handy. But in such a maps, even with quick combat, each time you loose about 3-5 from each core and 1-2 elite, unless you have a lot of archers.
But playing too many battles, this ends up you having a lot of losses in the long run.
On the other hand, why should i have to play all the battles? If i know i will win, why should i do this?
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted May 03, 2016 12:38 AM |
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Articun said:
I do not agree. When you have a very big map, like a campaign and you don't want to play all combats, this comes in handy. But in such a maps, even with quick combat, each time you loose about 3-5 from each core and 1-2 elite, unless you have a lot of archers.
But playing too many battles, this ends up you having a lot of losses in the long run.
On the other hand, why should i have to play all the battles? If i know i will win, why should i do this?
at first you will want to play the battles in order to minimize losses and become stronger. very much later there is no need to play them and quick battle ends up in almost zero losses if you've amassed a bug army.
and no one said use quick battle from the start. just at the end when your army is huge or losses don't matter because you are finishing the campaign.
i have to go to sleep so to wrap this up, i don't think the ai should handle your battles the same as you or better. if that was the case you could also watch the game from youtube 
quick battle is for the endgame mostly.
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted May 03, 2016 12:43 AM |
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Units that flee is good for gameplay. You avoid unnecessary battles (but can hunt them down if you really want to), It speeds up the game and makes it less tedious in the long run. It should be a universal feature, not requiring a skill. I never knew this was changed in H7.
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Articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted May 03, 2016 02:30 AM |
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Thank you Brukernavn, couldn't have said it better myself
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 03, 2016 07:27 AM |
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Sometimes I realy wonder whether people are talking about the same game.
If you want to avoid a battle you don't attack. The only reason to avoid a battle is, you don't feel strong enough to win the battle with reasonable losses.
Battles should NEVER be bothersome or tiresome; they were in H6, because the game missed map objects worth fighting for; the typical map would have a ton of stacks that would fight over 2 Wood or 400 Gold; that is tedious.
However, if you have enough map objects worth fighting for because you will really profit from them, then why on earth would you want to avoid a fight?
Fights also give experience, making your hero more powerful. Diplomacy is in many ways counter-productive here, and the only thing that would make it worthwhile would be something like, Novice Diplomacy: in a battle you fight 10% less creatures than there actually are in the stack - for the same XP.
If you can accept a join offer for a big lump of gold - why would you want them to join you in the first place with that amount of money?
Which means, the only reasonable way Diplomacy can work in such a game environment is, when it makes a battle easier for the same XP. It shouldn't make armies join you, neither for free nor for money. It could, however, make that part join you that doesn't fight - after the battle.
As a full skill with all kinds of abilities it's completely wasted - you ARE supposed to fight battles in this game, and when they all flee before you or join you, then what's left of that purpose.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted May 03, 2016 10:07 AM |
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if your army is strong enough for enemy creatures to flee in terror, it is strong enough for a quick combat with no substantial losses.
having the possibility to make that army join you or being in a tight spot and you let them go is fine. and the skill comes with lots of perks in the meantime.
why do we have to over analyze it and make it look like it's completely worthless? geez
exploration giving ultimately 3 movement points is smth we should talk about and how a modder can simply put a nice percentage there. or how can we improve other skills with easy modding.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 03, 2016 11:06 AM |
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ChrisD1 said:
why do we have to over analyze it and make it look like it's completely worthless? geez
Because it IS?
You have to see the whole game here. What IS Heroes as a game? What is fun there?
Obviously, if it's worth to be called a "strategy" game, then there must be some contemplating about strategy, right? And a sizable part of the game is running around and making sure you get tons of gold and resources, but THEIR purpose is to build towns up, so that they produce something worthwhile.
If you want an opportunity to BUY creatures outside of your town, there are countless opportunities to to this, by placing "neutral" dwellings on the map, like, Elemental Confluxes - you don't need this for guarding stacks.
If on the other hand, you have enough gold to BUY guarding stacks via a skill - why build up a town at all? Just go around and buy creatures. And if your army is so strong that everyone wants to join - what is the purpose of the map as such? You just run around and let units join? Imagine what that means for the skill: that it totally depends on map design: have somewhat too weakish guards and Diplomacy rules; too strong - no effect. Nonsense.
Which means, the skill is just missing the target - what is left of the game when you manage "encounters" via a skill that spares you fighting, bestows you with additional armies and whatnot? Within the framework of what makes the game I can envision some uses for a Diplomacy skill - for example, that you may be able to barter with mine guards to provide you a couple of resources in exchange for a few guards - or vice versa, or that you can sway a few enemies to switch sides before a battle, or that you can make a remote town (that a scout made contact with) to "ally" with you and provide you with some gold and/or troops before you actually get there to conquer it (and possibly sparing you the necessity to conquer it at all, after some time, or something).
As it is, it's just another thing implemented without much thought for the bigger game behind it.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted May 03, 2016 11:30 AM |
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Nobody speaks of exact copying of h5 skillwheel but why make it inferior?
They are dumbing down game with each iteration. I imagine h10 will look like the iOS game - might & magic : clash of heroes . We are slowly getting there, hold on!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 03, 2016 11:54 AM |
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This all reminds me an H3 game where I kept getting joiners with a warlock hero. Every implosion killed(or greatly weakened) an enemy stack and when my friend came close to defeating me I surrendered. He thought it was over and then I rehired my hero and bought 2 months' worth of dungeon army 
It's just hard to balance such a skill, especially when it can sway whole neutral stacks. Ofc now it's a bit different since the units no longer join for free but it's still heavily dependent on the map. H7 had some good ideas for it but imo it works better as a single ability under a leadership or nobility skill. The more you add to it, the easier it is for balance to spiral out of control. And I'm not a fan of banning skills..
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted May 03, 2016 12:10 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
If you want to avoid a battle you don't attack. The only reason to avoid a battle is, you don't feel strong enough to win the battle with reasonable losses.
Battles should NEVER be bothersome or tiresome; they were in H6, because the game missed map objects worth fighting for; the typical map would have a ton of stacks that would fight over 2 Wood or 400 Gold; that is tedious.
Battles should never be bothersome, but some inevitably will be. Say for instance you have week-of-whatever with suddenly a lot of low-level walkers blocking your way on the map. If you have a hero with only a single creature wandering around, then fighting those stacks might be challenging and you are forced to way the risk before attacking. However for your high-level hero with months of creatures, you are forced to fight the stacks that are now blocking your way. The XP they give is meaningless, and the fight is not challenging. Even if you tried to lose units, you might not be able to. I see no reason to load the battle map, move a few creatures, wait for the enemy to move, kill the enemy and then load the adventure map again. That's 1 minute (or more depending on your computer) wasted as it gives practically nothing and involves no skill or thinking. For these type of encounters there should be a "let flee" option to allow for more smooth gameplay. Heroes games are slow enough as it is, there is no need to force grinding.
When it comes to diplomacy as a skill I completely agree. However I don't mind if it was included as an ability with a low chance of triggering. I still remember when I first started playing heroes and a bunch of fire elementals suddenly wanted to join my army, I was thrilled. So even if it would have little impact as an ability, the "fun factor" would be worth it for a lot of players.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 03, 2016 12:26 PM |
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I remember having secondary heroes with Diplomacy, just for the purpose of collecting creatures after a "week of" event in H3. Didn't like that at all.
You could solve that differently with mixed stacks - a "week of" event would just add a stack of the creatures to all existing stacks.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted May 03, 2016 12:29 PM |
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jollyjoker you are leaving no space for middle ground. i don't agree with you. i see a skill with an opportunistic nature with lots of perks along the way .not the destroyer of the worlds that completely negates any strategic value to a game. mind you i m talking about this single skill only not the whole game mechanics.
and an important note. i am more of a casual player. i loved heroes from old times, since i'm 30 now, but i never delved that much deep into mechanics. i just enjoyed the game and trying to find strategies without thinking it too much. i 'm guessing you see more than me and that's why there is this "argument". it's ok
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